The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

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Junghalli
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The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Junghalli »

From the New York Times.

Any spelling mistakes are my own, I'm copying it from the newspaper.
Socrates talked. The assumption behind his approach to philosophy, and the approaches of millions of people since, is that moral thinking is mostly a matter of reason and deliberation: Think through moral problems. Find a just principle. Apply it.

One problem with this kind of approach to morality, as Michael Gazzaniga writes in his 2008 book, "Human," is that "it has been hard to find any correlation between moral reasoning and proactive moral behavior, such as helping other people. In fact, in most studies, none has been found."

Today, many psychologists, cognitive scientists, and even philosophers embrace a different view of morality. In this view, moral thinking is more like aesthetics. As we look around the world, we are constantly evaluating what we see. Seeing and evaluating what we see. Seeing and evaluating are not two separate processes. They are linked and basically simultaneous.

As Steven Quartz of the California Institute of Technology said during a recent discussion of ethics sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation, "Our brain is computing value at every fraction of a second. Everything that we look at, we form an implicit preference. Some of them make it into our awareness; some of them remain at the level of our unconscious, but ... what our brain is for, what our brain has evolved for, is to find what is of value in our environment."

Think of what happens when you put a new food into your mouth. You don't have to decide if it's disgusting. You just know. You don't have to decide if a landscape is beautiful. You just know.

Moral judgments are like that. They are rapid intuitive decisions and involve the emotion-processing parts of the brain. Most of us make snap moral judgments about what feels fair or not, or what feels good or not. We start doing this when we are babies, before we have language. And even as adults, we often can’t explain to ourselves why something feels wrong.

In other words, reasoning comes later and is often guided by the emotions that preceded it. Or as Jonathan Haidt of the University of Virginia wrote, “The emotions are, in fact, in charge of the temple of morality, and … moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.”

The question then becomes: What shapes moral emotions in the first place? The answer has long been evolution, but in recent years there’s an increasing appreciation that evolution isn’t just about competition. It’s also about cooperation within groups. Like bees, humans have long lived, or died based on their ability to divide labor, help each other and stand together in the face of common threats. Many of our moral emotions and intuitions reflect that history. We don’t just care about individual rights, or even the rights of other individuals. We also care about loyalty, respect, traditions, religions. We are all the descendants of successful cooperators.

The first nice thing about this evolutionary approach to morality is that it emphasizes the social nature of moral intuition. People are not discrete units cooly formulating moral arguments. They link themselves together into communities and networks of mutual influence.

The second nice thing is that it entails a warmer view of human nature. Evolution is always about competition, but for humans, as Darwin speculated, competition among groups has turned us into pretty cooperative, empathetic and altruistic creatures – at least within our families, groups, and sometimes nations.

The third nice thing is that it explains the haphazard way most of us lead our lives without destroying dignity and choice. Moral intuitions have primacy, Haidt argues, but they are not dictators. There are times, often the most important moments in our lives, when in fact we do use reason to override moral intuitions, and often those reasons – along with new intuitions – come from our friends.

The rise and now dominance of this emotional approach to morality is an epochal change. It challenges all sorts of traditions. It challenges the bookish way philosophy is conceived by most people. It challenges the Talmudic tradition, with its hyper-rational scrutiny of texts. It challenges the new atheists, who see themselves involved in a war of reason against faith and who have an unwarranted faith in the power of pure reason and in the purity of their own reasoning.

Finally, it should challenge the very scientists who study morality. They’re good at explaining how people make judgments about harm and fairness, but they still struggle to explain the feelings of awe, transcendence, patriotism, joy and self-sacrifice, which are not ancillary to most people’s moral experiences, but central. The evolutionary approach also leads many scientists to neglect the concept of individual responsibility and makes it hard for them to appreciate that most people struggle toward goodness, not as a means, but as an end in itself.
This basically confirms something I've strongly suspected for a while: many, many people rarely if ever think about their moral system at all. They mostly just ride their emotional knee-jerk reactions through life. Occassionally they'll think up rationalizations, but they're just that; rationalizations - their real reasons are emotional.

I kind of see the point about how thinking through your ethics may not actually do all that much. I think I'm a better and more compassionate person than I was before I adopted a logical approach to ethics, but to be honest in terms of altruism I haven't really improved much at all; giving more change to the homeless is pretty much the extent of it.

As for the rest of it, as far as I'm concerned, what a bunch of gork! No, not thinking about your moral decisions is not a good thing. It's the lazy man's approach to ethics, and it translates to "I regurgitate whatever values I have uncritically absorbed from the people around me". Besides the fact this sort of ethics usually results in a "system" that's an inconsistent mess (because it's based on a bunch of random stuff you've absorbed osmitically without thinking about it), it's also a great way to make sure there will never be any social progress ever. This sort of ethics will always reflect the status quo of whatever community you were raised in because, as I said, it's just unthinkingly regurgitating whatever values you've uncritically absorbed from the people around you.

If you lived in the nineteenth century this sort of approach to ethics would pretty much guarentee you'd be a sexist, racist jerkwad. You'd have been absorbing the ideas that women and non-whites were inferior from early childhood like mother's milk, so of course you'd "just know" it had to be true.

For what it's worth, a rationalist approach to ethics may have failed to make me much more altruistic, but I know it made me less of a jerk. It forced me to give up opinions like "I think homosexuality is evil because I find it squicky so it must be wrong - err, I mean because God says it is." Which is a perfect example of why "intuitive ethics" isn't actually such a hot idea.

I really dislike this "trust your inner zombie" idea, because it seems like just patting people on the back for being intellectually lazy.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Starglider »

Junghalli wrote:I really dislike this "trust your inner zombie" idea, because it seems like just patting people on the back for being intellectually lazy.
Humans evolved that way, primarily because
a) mental effort is a scarce resource that you could be devoting to personal survival issues (food, status etc) rather than agonising over the details of how to appear 'fair' (which unfortunately is what morality boils down to in evolution).
b) getting into the habit of intellectualising everything can easily lead to you being outmaneuvered, outcompeted or just plain killed by faster moving opponents.

It sucks but trying to train people out of it is mostly just pissing in the ocean. From a scientific point of view, that's how humans actually work and you can't deny it if you want an accurate model. If you don't like things being this way, then you'll just have to support my Bond-villain plan to repopulate the earth with general AIs ;)
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Samuel »

We don’t just care about individual rights, or even the rights of other individuals. We also care about loyalty, respect, traditions, religions.
People have been willing to sacrifice their lives for principles. Of course, not all individuals are like that, but the people who did the civil rights movement (or the people who aren't gay or transexual and fighting to help them) were motivated by idealism.
unwarranted faith in the power of pure reason and in the purity of their own reasoning.
The day reason and evidence is not always right, I will eat my own pants. This sounds like a nearly anti-intellectual screed.

Also, the reason we focus on moral principles is because it helps deal with when we hold contradictory or hypocritical positions. Which is important because that is generally the problem with most individuals moral instinct. Seriously, most people don't think about why they do things... which is one of the major problems we have.
Moral intuitions have primacy, Haidt argues, but they are not dictators. There are times, often the most important moments in our lives, when in fact we do use reason to override moral intuitions, and often those reasons – along with new intuitions – come from our friends.
We are free- we are decided by our friends instead of our own minds! :banghead: Does he not realize exactly how pathetic that sounds? I hate it when people try to wiggle out of determinism and just say things that are even worse.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Junghalli »

I guess you're right Starglider. What really bugs me though is the way the article seems to be trying to make people feel good about making ethical decisions with zero introspection. It's bad enough that our brains are wired that way, the last thing we need is to be encouraging it. It's like enabling a drug addict: the last thing he needs is encouragement to continue his bad habit.

This strikes me as something that would make a great legitimizing argument for homophobia. "There must be a good reason gays are icky to me so it must really be bad." :roll:

Edit: also, as for evolutionary reasons, I think it's probably the same reason we have empathy instead of being rational sociopaths with a natural aptitude for game theory: emotion is probably computationally "cheaper" than reason, and it offerred a much more straightforward evolutionary pathway from the sort of wetware we already had as mammals.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Covenant »

They’re good at explaining how people make judgments about harm and fairness, but they still struggle to explain the feelings of awe, transcendence, patriotism, joy and self-sacrifice, which are not ancillary to most people’s moral experiences, but central.
The premise of the article is incorrect. The fact that these factors are central to people's moral experience is also not difficult to explain, as these are taught to them, a process of reason and rational thinking that begins and ends at childhood long before the emotional quantity of moral experience is felt.

It is not, despite what they assert, an intuitive process, an automatic gut-instinct one. There is a time when things are explained before they are felt. You are taught that things are wrong, and should be hated, before you hate them. Just like someone eating, as they said, culture and upbringing define what is considered desirable--literally and morally. This is the ignored truth--reason rests at the heart of morality, but this reasoning is often handed down to children who are told not to question it, and reinforced by an atmosphere of conformity. Therefore, it is not a natural process, but a rational one, one which simply is taught to end once the first answers are given. All that is really needed to transform it to a more rational reaction is to encourage a continued re-evaluation of the framework.

Emotions require a logic to make them fire. You feel admiration for someone when you are viewing something you have been taught is admirable. You feel disgust when viewing something you have been taught is digusting. Once taught, this can be untaught, by the person themselves or by a change in the society. The truth that few people question the underlying logic, or seek to examine it, or try to match it to the reality of the outside world, does not change the fact that emotional context is based on a reasoning. Nobody says the reasoning is always well informed.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Junghalli »

Covenant wrote:This is the ignored truth--reason rests at the heart of morality, but this reasoning is often handed down to children who are told not to question it, and reinforced by an atmosphere of conformity. Therefore, it is not a natural process, but a rational one, one which simply is taught to end once the first answers are given. All that is really needed to transform it to a more rational reaction is to encourage a continued re-evaluation of the framework.
This is a good point. The thing about intuitive ethics is that they have their own rule-codes, which can be analyzed rationally. When you do so, you find that they are often horrible, poorly thought out, inconsistent messes, because they are a combination of instinct and uncritically absorbed social conditioning, regurgitated without examination. The idea that this combination is likely to be a recipe for a good functional moral code is just rather offensively stupid if you ask me.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Vendetta »

Samuel wrote:
unwarranted faith in the power of pure reason and in the purity of their own reasoning.
The day reason and evidence is not always right, I will eat my own pants. This sounds like a nearly anti-intellectual screed.
It's anti-rationalist.

Rationalism in philosophy is the use of pure reason in the absence of evidence. Biblical apologism is classical rationalist thought, for example. It takes it's premises as true and then massages the logic until it likes the conclusion, without examining the premises to find out whether they are true.

It's pretty much discredited now in terms of philosophical thinking, and is exactly the kind of thing that will produce warped moralities because it doesn't refer to the real world.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

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It challenges the new atheists, who see themselves involved in a war of reason against faith and who have an unwarranted faith in the power of pure reason and in the purity of their own reasoning.
I agreed with most of the article, but this is a simple non-sequitur. The author ignores that the new atheists are making objective factual claims, not subjective moral claims. And when it comes to discovering the truth of factual claims, reason has no peer.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Vendetta »

Surlethe wrote:And when it comes to discovering the truth of factual claims, reason has no peer.
I think you mean empiricism has no peer (well, once the limits of human perception are overcome by sufficiently accurate objective measurements, anyway).

The article is arguing against a straw man of atheists, especially scientific/skeptical atheists, when he talks about "pure reason", which is the diametric opposite to scientific method. Once again, "pure reason" is introspective thought with no reference to objective reality as it is presented by sense data, and the tenet of pure reason is that only introspective reason produces knowledge.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Eris »

I find this article difficult to understand. Not in the sense that it's wrong or ill-formed as an argument, but in that I don't know what Brooks is arguing about to begin with. Granted, I should have been warned when someone references a ~2400 year old as a preface to modern philosophical debate.

Fundamentally, nothing here is new. Psychological research does indicate that people do a lot of kneejerk moral decision making, but... I'm not sure what Brooks is trying to conclude from that. He talks about a new book saying this as if it is a making a big splash right now, but I can point to a book from 1998 (Morality Without Foundations, by Mark Timmons) that is already addressing that kind of issue, amongst others, and there are probably more from even farther back. Hell, there were some expressivist-like moral systems back in the Ancient period. This is by no means something surprising.

And if he's talking just about rationality and its role in moral discussion? Well, Rationalism as a philosophical school collapsed in the 1950s with the publication of "Two Dogmas of Empiricism". And we've known we were in trouble since the collapse of the Russellian programme to formalise everything. Honestly, this very much feels to me like Brooks found a book that sounded sensational to him and started pontificating without checking if anyone had been working on solutions to these issues in moral philosophy.

A lot of what Brooks says is true, but he doesn't seem to be going anywhere with it. I almost want to say that he's suggesting our decision making as governed by our emotions should be all there is to morality. But I don't want to attribute that to him, because that'd be stupid, and I try to be charitable.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by MarshalPurnell »

I'm reasonably sure Haidt taught the Psych 101 course I took in 2004 at UVa. I just can't recall the name to be certain, but he was a short, youthful, very energetic guy with an Irish sounding accent. Certainly convinced me of the predominance of intuitive thinking in the human mind, though I did not want to go as far down the neuroscience influenced determinist path as he did. But it did contribute to my profoundly pessimistic view of humanity.

I think Brooks is trying to put forward the "lighter" side of the coin. People are not good at reasoning, and most of the time the process is really just elaborate rationalization of decisions and attitudes already decided on a gut level. Independent evaluation of data is irrevocably contaminated in human beings by emotional reaction and bias; not just cultural bias, but rather fundamental problems with the way humans evaluate the world, such as the agency-bias fallacy. Brooks is trying to say, it seems to me, that we should not give undue priority to claims of "reason" since in most cases the decisions reached through it are not really objective or rational at all. The prospect of group-diversity allowing a check on unconscious bias offers a bit of hope at the end for mitigating the inefficiencies of human cognitive processes and generally challenging the social consequences of such faulty thinking.

But he's basically incoherent beyond stringing together an overview of the kind of issues that people like Haidt are dealing with.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Mayabird »

I think there might be a naturalistic fallacy in there somewhere.
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Re: The End of Philosophy by David Brooks

Post by Darth Wong »

Socrates talked. The assumption behind his approach to philosophy, and the approaches of millions of people since, is that moral thinking is mostly a matter of reason and deliberation: Think through moral problems. Find a just principle. Apply it.

One problem with this kind of approach to morality, as Michael Gazzaniga writes in his 2008 book, "Human," is that "it has been hard to find any correlation between moral reasoning and proactive moral behavior, such as helping other people. In fact, in most studies, none has been found."
Right, so people do not always follow their own stated beliefs. How does that lead to a conclusion of "follow your heart, not your head"?
Today, many psychologists, cognitive scientists, and even philosophers embrace a different view of morality. In this view, moral thinking is more like aesthetics. As we look around the world, we are constantly evaluating what we see. Seeing and evaluating what we see. Seeing and evaluating are not two separate processes. They are linked and basically simultaneous.

As Steven Quartz of the California Institute of Technology said during a recent discussion of ethics sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation, "Our brain is computing value at every fraction of a second. Everything that we look at, we form an implicit preference. Some of them make it into our awareness; some of them remain at the level of our unconscious, but ... what our brain is for, what our brain has evolved for, is to find what is of value in our environment."

Think of what happens when you put a new food into your mouth. You don't have to decide if it's disgusting. You just know. You don't have to decide if a landscape is beautiful. You just know.
That's a lot of words to form the simple statement "subjective preferences are not conscious decisions". Perhaps you get paid by the word.
Moral judgments are like that. They are rapid intuitive decisions and involve the emotion-processing parts of the brain. Most of us make snap moral judgments about what feels fair or not, or what feels good or not. We start doing this when we are babies, before we have language. And even as adults, we often can’t explain to ourselves why something feels wrong.
And yet, many people are capable of making a moral judgement that goes against their subjective feeling of "right" or "wrong". Take homosexuality for example: I was raised in a much more homophobic period than the present. As a result, I have an reflexive negative reaction to homosexual or even effeminate heterosexual men. And yet, I believe very strongly in gay rights, because I consciously understand that my social programming has no valid ethical foundation.

According to you, I cannot exist. People like me don't exist. Everyone talks about ethics but is incapable of breaking out of their subjective preferences. And yet, here I am. And I achieved this change by reading articles and watching documentaries, not by being influenced by my social peers.
In other words, reasoning comes later and is often guided by the emotions that preceded it. Or as Jonathan Haidt of the University of Virginia wrote, “The emotions are, in fact, in charge of the temple of morality, and … moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.”
That may be true for the unintelligent masses. But morality has changed over the centuries; what was considered moral in 1500 is often considered repugnant today. And those changes were often driven by exceptional individuals, not the unintelligent masses. Exceptional individuals can break free of rigid conformism to pre-existing standards.
The question then becomes: What shapes moral emotions in the first place? The answer has long been evolution, but in recent years there’s an increasing appreciation that evolution isn’t just about competition. It’s also about cooperation within groups. Like bees, humans have long lived, or died based on their ability to divide labor, help each other and stand together in the face of common threats. Many of our moral emotions and intuitions reflect that history. We don’t just care about individual rights, or even the rights of other individuals. We also care about loyalty, respect, traditions, religions. We are all the descendants of successful cooperators.
Tribal co-operators, not human-wide co-operators. The notion of extending one's protections outside one's own tribe is fairly new, and is the result of people who actually gave the concept of ethics some conscious thought.
The first nice thing about this evolutionary approach to morality is that it emphasizes the social nature of moral intuition. People are not discrete units cooly formulating moral arguments. They link themselves together into communities and networks of mutual influence.

The second nice thing is that it entails a warmer view of human nature. Evolution is always about competition, but for humans, as Darwin speculated, competition among groups has turned us into pretty cooperative, empathetic and altruistic creatures – at least within our families, groups, and sometimes nations.
You are forgetting competition between groups, which is also part of our evolutionary history and leads to tribalism, racism, and xenophobia: traits we have seen repeated, often horrifically, throughout all of human history.
The third nice thing is that it explains the haphazard way most of us lead our lives without destroying dignity and choice. Moral intuitions have primacy, Haidt argues, but they are not dictators. There are times, often the most important moments in our lives, when in fact we do use reason to override moral intuitions, and often those reasons – along with new intuitions – come from our friends.
No, they come from great thinkers. Our friends almost invariably have exactly the same attitudes we do. Emulating your friends is not the triumph of reason over instinct; it is in fact merely another instinct.
The rise and now dominance of this emotional approach to morality is an epochal change. It challenges all sorts of traditions. It challenges the bookish way philosophy is conceived by most people. It challenges the Talmudic tradition, with its hyper-rational scrutiny of texts. It challenges the new atheists, who see themselves involved in a war of reason against faith and who have an unwarranted faith in the power of pure reason and in the purity of their own reasoning.
This paragraph is so fouled with falsehoods that it is difficult to decide where to start. First, the emotional approach to morality is hardly an "epochal change"; it has always been the preference of most of society (the unintelligent masses), with philosophers being the rare exception. Second, the Talmudic tradition is not "hyper-rational"; on the contrary, it is based on numerous blatant logic fallacies. Third, rationalists (who he seems to have confused with atheists merely because the two categories often overlap) are not imbued with "faith in the power of pure reason", but rather, a well-justified contempt for the power of non-reason. It is not that they believe themselves to be perfect, but rather, that they know logic is a superior method to illogic, and they continually attempt to achieve that ideal.
Finally, it should challenge the very scientists who study morality. They’re good at explaining how people make judgments about harm and fairness, but they still struggle to explain the feelings of awe, transcendence, patriotism, joy and self-sacrifice, which are not ancillary to most people’s moral experiences, but central. The evolutionary approach also leads many scientists to neglect the concept of individual responsibility and makes it hard for them to appreciate that most people struggle toward goodness, not as a means, but as an end in itself.
That is another pure lie. The study of morality does not struggle to explain such things. In fact, some of them (like patriotism) are very easily understood.

This guy is a long-winded moron whose argument rests primarily on ignorance of what ethical philosophy has accomplished and is capable of explaining. The last paragraph is particularly revealing: he uses the same "scientists cannot explain this" style of argument that creationists do, and with about the same level of factual accuracy, which is to say "none". And finishing by saying that the evolutionary approach neglects the concept of individual responsibility is idiotic: the concept of individual responsibility is central to any evolutionary understanding of morality. Indeed, natural selection is the ultimate form of accountability.
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