Arm a Terminator

[Stark]

Yeah sorry, I read read you’re post and saw it reply to points I made, and I assumed it was in response to me since I sure as shit don’t see anyone else talking about air dropping weapons. Now if you could just kindly point out the place in which anyone ever claimed all weapons are captured and Ill be fully on you're side. But I don't see it right now.

Yeah sorry, I start formulating my responses as I read down the thread, and up near the top guys were talking about 'oh dear pick a weapon that isn't going to be dangerous when turned against you', which I think is daft (especially when you can just make terminator arms different or whatever so they can't be used without serious modification) and even suggested fucking BOWS. In any case, in T1 the guys seem to be using post-war 'future combat' (80s style anyway) stuff and they were already established, so at that point the motive to pick weapons on that criteria is largely gone, whereas back in the 'we just walked out of a slave camp' period it may have been important (although since back then they probably didn't even HAVE infiltrators with man-usable weapons it's probably moot).

[Shroom Man 777]

*edit* The Terminator asked the gun store owner for a "plasma rifle in the 40 watt range" not a "General Electric R-40W" (as an example.) I never read either of the novelizations, though, so my only current source material is between my ears.

Maybe the Terminator was looking for the gunstore's plasma weapon products of that range. It'd be like saying "Hey, you got any forty five caliber semi-automatics?" "Yeah, we got some Colt 1911s, a couple of Glock 21s, and a bunch of SIG P220s."

"Plasma rifle in the 40 watt range."

"Sure, buddy. We got this General Electric R-40W, just came in the mail. And we've got everyone's favorite, the Westinghouse 29 PPR - comes in battle rifle and carbine versions too. Which will it be?"

"I must consult my price range. Give me your clothes, boots and motorcycle."

"Hey, you can't do that!"

"WRONG."

*Terminator pulls the guy's pants off*

[His Divine Shadow]

So for this exercise you're a subnode of Skynet and the T-600 are beginning to roll off the assembly lines. They're being used as infiltrators and as robot infantry doing seek and destroy and all that other fun stuff that robot infantry controlled by a genocidal AI would do. At the moment you have weapons manufacturing base that can produce gear roughly equivalent to our own.

How would you equip the T-600s?

I'll give them M4s and M16s, they exist in large numbers and ammo is common and they kill humans well enough. I assume in the chaos following judgment day it shouldn't be harder to acquire existing weapons from stockpiles and bases, rather than developing and building new guns from scratch.

I won't develop plasma weapons (well I won't deploy them) or anything like that which can be used against terminators, they will carry guns that can kill humans but not other terminators.

[barricade]

Actually going back to the chainsaw & bow/arrow idea, think both have major merits going for them. If not for combat, or at least the chainsaw.

Equip your endo-skeleton with the chainsaw and use it, along with the massive strength the Termie is going to have, to be able to get into fortified areas far faster then it could without one. In short, Combat Engineering. Both the constructive and 'deconstructive' kinds. Also it nicely adds to the psychological warfare presence the Termie gives off. Backing that up, a built-in version of the jaws of life/industrial cutting-claw for the Endo-skeletons that don't have a rubber/tissue cover. If the Resistance starts barring entrances with entire steel I-beams or whatever, use this. It might be slow going, but it'd still allow the Termie to get inside. While ranged weapons will be the major item we'd want to add to it, sooner or later your Endo-skeletons or Infiltrators will need to start doing house-to-house combat/hunting, and getting down into the sewers.

As for the bow/arrow, while I wouldn't exactly arm one with it from the get-go, I'd have them at least programmed to be able to make a reasonable one from scratch if needs be. Again, as mentioned, with a draw-strength that's literally inhuman. Perhaps in a low-level combat area where the supply lines are starting to feel stretched, then I might arm them with crossbows/bows from the start, but not before then. After all, if my Termie has somehow been disarmed, or the armory was sabotaged, whatever, and its up against armed Resistance, I want it to be able to at least be able to make -something- from scrap that it can use against them while still minimalizing the risk of losing it.

Personally for firearms, I'd equip one with an auto-shotty (I know ppl are probably tired of the AA-12, but its a good one), considering you can do the obvious buckshot, solid slug, rubber baton (for prisoners 'worthy' of interrogation), etc. The other idea would be to get the plans for the G-11 caseless rifle. Considering that the Resistance is using pretty much what it can find 'on hand', and that standard ball rounds (w/ shell casing) are the norm, a caseless rifle will be all but useless to the Resistance unless they can get their hands on more ammunition. So they'd only be able to use a captured one until its clip runs dry. Considering its generally a lot harder to make caseless rounds then standard ones, its just another form of resource denial I can force on the Resistance, as they certainly are not going to have, at least immediately, any means to make more without some very specialized equipment. Or if they can, they aren't going to be able to make the rounds in large numbers. Probably wouldn't be able to get this any time soon, due to needing to rebuild/consolidate but it'd be on the list.

For stuff that's likely to be found 'as is' without needing a production line yet, I'd say just about anything from H&K, especially the G3 and G36. I'd ignore anything smaller then a 7.62mm round, unless its a pistol round, or in the case of the Five seveN/P90, a deliberate AP round. Something that even if they get hit in a BP vest, and it doesn't manage to penetrate, will still drive them to their knees from the impact/surprise/shock/pain/etc. Only reason I mentioned the G36 is because I keep hearing the its slightly better then the M16 & M4A1. Although if someone points me out to something proving that's wrong, I'll change my opinion.

[TheLostVikings]

As for the bow/arrow, while I wouldn't exactly arm one with it from the get-go, I'd have them at least programmed to be able to make a reasonable one from scratch if needs be. Again, as mentioned, with a draw-strength that's literally inhuman. Perhaps in a low-level combat area where the supply lines are starting to feel stretched, then I might arm them with crossbows/bows from the start, but not before then. After all, if my Termie has somehow been disarmed, or the armory was sabotaged, whatever, and its up against armed Resistance, I want it to be able to at least be able to make -something- from scrap that it can use against them while still minimalizing the risk of losing it.

But why would they need a bow to utilize random scraps as weapons in the first place? The very idea is preposterous, just by makeing at least one shoulder into a proper 360 degree rotating ball joint and you can just throw anything just as far in a slinging motion. And no need to carry a bulky bow that will only slow you down.

And while i agree with the usefulness of the jaws-of-life thing, there is no reason why all terminators can't have the capabilities to do so built in. Both the jaws-of-life and their arms are powered by hydraulics after all, seems they should be able to generate the necessary power and leverage without anything special addons.

Have you seen how far an Olympic athlete can throw a javelin? With their superhuman strength a terminator ought to be able to hurl any random piece of rebar pretty damn far, and furthermore they have the computer brains necessary to do some pretty advanced ballistics calculations in real time.

For weapons, pretty much anything ruled illegal by international conventions would be what you'd want to get as a genocidal A.I. Basically liberal use of hollow point tracer rounds, VX and sarin nerve gas, white phosphorus cluster bombs. And well, pretty much reading the Geneva Protocol and Hague Convention not so much as guidelines of what not to do, but rather as an instruction manual on efficient antihuman warfare.

[NecronLord]

I'd ignore anything smaller then a 7.62mm round, unless its a pistol round, or in the case of the Five seveN/P90, a deliberate AP round.

Why? You're the machines. The humans are the flesh-bags who're easily punctured. How many of them are going to be heavily armoured? Otherwise, all the arguments for using 5.56 apply - debilitating enemies for capture and to slow enemy formation's retreats, and so forth.

[Khaat]

Maybe the Terminator was looking for the gunstore's plasma weapon products of that range. It'd be like saying "Hey, you got any forty five caliber semi-automatics?" "Yeah, we got some Colt 1911s, a couple of Glock 21s, and a bunch of SIG P220s."

Could be!

I dunno, though. I would have infiltrators operate like Special Forces guys (Dutch Schaefer or John Rambo, granted, my brainbug) rather than doing the Hollywood "I AM DAH SOLDIER! I SAW DAH A-TEAM! I SHOOTZ DAH BIG GUN!" Infiltrators should be sneaking around ID-ing targets or picking off targets of opportunity, not standing with mini-gun blazing. It seems the Hollywood answer to wars of attrition is to stand and get shot at, rather than display some of this "genius intellect" I keep reading SkyNet has and fall back from an untenable position or call in that overwhelming advantage. They keep writing it like this, it will begin to look like human victory was not merely possible, but inevitable!

The games have only made the genre worse: Pablo Sanchez posted a link to a T-600 image from the game "Terminator: Resistance", where they are as a standard armed with miniguns! Seriously, are they infiltration units or wanktastic robot soldiers first?

[Shroom Man 777]

Human victory was inevitable and the fact that SkyNet fought on for decades before losing is an outstanding achievement in itself!

Skynet initially was just some supercomputer in some mountain, and it launched some missiles that killed a couple of billion humans. Then, somehow, it manages to produce - presumably FROM SCRATCH - an army of obscene gleaming metallic skeletons of death. Then with this army of machines built from scratch, it somehow manages to battle against billions of humans who are armed with all sorts of leftover weaponry. The remnants of all the world's combined militaries. Despite the numerical disadvantage, the obscene disadvantage, Skynet somehow continues on fighting and gains the upper hand for some time before it is eventually destroyed.

It's not a bad showing for a computer that was, from the very start, desperately avoiding death at the hands of humans out to pull its plug.

[Khaat]

Human victory was inevitable and the fact that SkyNet fought on for decades before losing is an outstanding achievement in itself!

I keep thinking of Kyle Reese's lines to Sarah:

"Some of us were kept alive... to work... loading bodies into dumpsters and incinerators. The disposal units ran night and day. We were that close to going out forever. But there was one man who taught us to fight, to storm the wire of the camps, to smash those metal motherfuckers into junk. He turned it around. He brought us back from the brink. His name is Connor. John Connor. Your son, Sarah, your unborn son."

I'm more content (hard to say "happier that most humans were dead") that humans were the underdogs from the start *edit: first from ignorance, then by SkyNet's machinations (heh)* and only later was there even a chance at survival. The story and timeline has been re-written a few times, now, and I'm disenchanted with the franchise. Sure I'll see T4, but I'll be grumbling about the Hollywood/gamer flaws.

Then with this army of machines built from scratch, it somehow manages to battle against billions of humans who are armed with all sorts of leftover weaponry. The remnants of all the world's combined militaries.

Military targets would have been primary targets for the nuclear and automated weapon-systems strikes (provided they couldn't be secured by SkyNet ... somehow.), so I'd prefer to think the best humans would have had was "the remnants of all the world's combined gun-runner, guerrilla/rebel and survivalist weapons caches."

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm more content (hard to say "happier that most humans were dead") that humans were the underdogs from the start *edit: first from ignorance, then by SkyNet's machinations (heh)* and only later was there even a chance at survival.

Just like how the free world was on the verge of conquest by Nazi Germany and the Axis Powers?

Military targets would have been primary targets for the nuclear and automated weapon-systems strikes (provided they couldn't be secured by SkyNet ... somehow.), so I'd prefer to think the best humans would have had was "the remnants of all the world's combined gun-runner, guerrilla/rebel and survivalist weapons caches."

Skynet made America launch its nukes at the targets in Russia, knowing that the Russian counterattack would annihilate its enemies in the USA.

The best the humans would have are the remnants of all the world's combined arsenals from places that were literally untouched by the nuclear exchange. Why would Skynet want to nuke Australia? For all we know, the Resistance ended up getting lend-leased T-72s from Rwanda or Angola or South Africa or something. For all we know, the Resistance could've borrowed men and machines from Asian nations - Singaporean Gurkhas in Malaysian MiGs or some shit.

A whole lot of the world would be untouched.

And the whole nuclear exchange also destroys Skynet's pre-existing US military material in the USA. That means Skynet would have to construct factories to construct its killer robots. How the hell would it do that? It's just a computer in a dumb mountain.

[Samuel]

The best the humans would have are the remnants of all the world's combined arsenals from places that were literally untouched by the nuclear exchange.

If Skynet has total control of the stockpile, it could have hit everything. After all, its goal is to kill every human and most of the worlds population lives in the third world. Stuart pointed out that many of them can be taken out by one or two missiles.

That means Skynet would have to construct factories to construct its killer robots. How the hell would it do that? It's just a computer in a dumb mountain.

It gets better when you realize that Skynets factories would be primary Russian targets. How did any hardware survive?

[His Divine Shadow]

For stuff that's likely to be found 'as is' without needing a production line yet, I'd say just about anything from H&K, especially the G3 and G36. I'd ignore anything smaller then a 7.62mm round, unless its a pistol round, or in the case of the Five seveN/P90, a deliberate AP round. Something that even if they get hit in a BP vest, and it doesn't manage to penetrate, will still drive them to their knees from the impact/surprise/shock/pain/etc. Only reason I mentioned the G36 is because I keep hearing the its slightly better then the M16 & M4A1. Although if someone points me out to something proving that's wrong, I'll change my opinion.

I have to question the logic here. It's slightly better? In what way? Why is that even relevant (assuming it's even true, I'm sure it's more expensive), the whole point of using M4/M16s is because they exist in large numbers already.

[Shroom Man 777]

If Skynet has total control of the stockpile, it could have hit everything. After all, its goal is to kill every human and most of the worlds population lives in the third world. Stuart pointed out that many of them can be taken out by one or two missiles.

It depends on the missiles you have on hand. Would you want to blow up population centers, or enemy strategic weapons? Would you want to blow up a parking lot full of tanks, or a missile silo?

It gets better when you realize that Skynets factories would be primary Russian targets. How did any hardware survive?

It gets best when Skynet has to build those factories after the nuclear exchange.

[Khaat]

If Skynet has total control of the stockpile, it could have hit everything. After all, its goal is to kill every human and most of the worlds population lives in the third world. Stuart pointed out that many of them can be taken out by one or two missiles.

See, here's where I have to wonder about the extent of SkyNet's control of the nuclear arsenal: why not re-task missiles to strike only military targets and population centers, while intentionally minimizing strikes to select manufacturing facilities and SkyNet's own infrastructure, whose human populations get misinformation? The Russian counter-launch would be authorized before the US strikes land, possibly even (okay, a stretch, I admit) SkyNet hacking the Russian command structure and retasking their missile strikes.

I do remember there being one story that there was a Russian counterpart to SkyNet, so JD was played from both sides of the "war" ... or was that just/only The Forbin Project?

Then there is the absence of accurate intel for the surviving humans, who might well have spent a few years fighting amongst themselves before word spread (by hordes of killing machines) that SkyNet was actually responsible for all of it. SkyNet may even have played a little goodlife/badlife (Saberhagen's Berserker series) with the survivors. There's so much we haven't seen, I fear the telling of it by Hollywood will devalue the eventual victory by TechCom forces. It would be like GL writing that R2D2 destroyed the Death Star! "Shutting down all the garbage mashers on the detention level destroyed the Death Star by creating a power-feedback loop when they activated the super-laser at the Battle of Yavin!"

What information sources do the humans have before the machines begin to walk? Just that crazy guy, named ... Connor, was it? "Those survivalists nuts are insufferable now that the world's actually ended!"

Just like how the free world was on the verge of conquest by Nazi Germany and the Axis Powers?

Europe was on the verge of total Nazi domination, not the "Free World". But I guess it all depends on who's telling the story! "Damned colonials!"

[Shroom Man 777]

See, here's where I have to wonder about the extent of SkyNet's control of the nuclear arsenal: why not re-task missiles to strike only military targets and population centers, while intentionally minimizing strikes to select manufacturing facilities and SkyNet's own infrastructure, whose human populations get misinformation?

Thing is, those preserved manufacturing facilities might also fall into human hands. There are still billions of human survivors. But just one Skynet. Depending on pre-existing factors, Skynet might have to build robots and robot-factories from near-scratch.

I do remember there being one story that there was a Russian counterpart to SkyNet, so JD was played from both sides of the "war" ... or was that just/only The Forbin Project?

There are a lot of stories.

Then there is the absence of accurate intel for the surviving humans, who might well have spent a few years fighting amongst themselves before word spread (by hordes of killing machines) that SkyNet was actually responsible for all of it. SkyNet may even have played a little goodlife/badlife (Saberhagen's Berserker series) with the survivors.

That's a good idea, one that I've suggested in some other thread, as to Skynet's tactics in "softening up" humanity. Skynet stays quiet and builds its forces up for a few years, while humanity blames each other and tears each other to bits. Hell, at first, Skynet might've even had voluntary human help before the humans realized what was going on - and by then it was too late, and Skynet's human "allies" eventually get surrounded by a bunch of Hunter Killers who THEN force them to slave labor.

It'd suck. At first you think it's okay and are working out of your own free will before you realize something was wrong and THEN bam, the Hunter Killers come in and tell you that you're actually a slave.

Aside from this, bioweapons could've been used and all sorts of shit. Wipe out crops. Utterly ruin humanity. Plagues and diseases. After the initial nuclear exchange, human infighting plus unexplained famines and the resurgence of disease, and when humanity eventually gets a clue - too late, robot killing machines are coming to kill you!

What information sources do the humans have before the machines begin to walk? Just that crazy guy, named ... Connor, was it? "Those survivalists nuts are insufferable now that the world's actually ended!"

Exactly.

Europe was on the verge of total Nazi domination, not the "Free World". But I guess it all depends on who's telling the story! "Damned colonials!"

Kyle was American and spent his entire life in an American wasteland. Those people from Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America and South East Asia, from the outside, might derisively call the Future War as something that just happened in "that robot-infested shithole, America!"

[[R_H]]

I have to question the logic here. It's slightly better? In what way? Why is that even relevant (assuming it's even true, I'm sure it's more expensive), the whole point of using M4/M16s is because they exist in large numbers already.

And AKs...lots of AKs.

[Elheru Aran]

Personally, the thunder-hammer and storm shield have always been favourites of mine, but there's something to be said for the good ol' stormbolter and powerfist combination...

Oh, wait, not that kind of Terminator.

I'd probably throw in some kind of cheap-assed grenade launcher; some kind of explosive death's always good to have, and while grenades are heavy, you don't need that many of them as long as you've got a second weapon. Something like the under-barrel GL upon the M16/M4 or the AK should be quite sufficient for most Terminators units, and I would probably have platoons armed with whatever locally-appropriate weaons were available, then have some heavy gunners with M-249s and extra ammunition.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The reason for using 7.62 weapons is simply that there is no real reason for them to use anything smaller. The main reasons that modern militaries adopted small-caliber rifles--reduced recoil and lower weight of both weapons and ammunition--are a serious boon to human infantry but not nearly as important to fuck-off big robots. We know that 7.62 NATO on full-auto is trivial to them (T3 featured a T-800 firing an M60 from the hip one-handed!), and they're strong enough to carry huge amounts of ammo for it. Thus the advantages of 7.62, such as it's high killing power, armor piercing abilities, and superior range and accuracy, make it more attractive than the 5.56. Arguments about using existing stocks aren't really that effective in this case because 7.62 NATO is also a standard round and stockpiled in huge amounts.

[His Divine Shadow]

It doesn't have to be an either/or issue.

Just issue terminators with both 5.56 and 7.62, depending on the local situation. You could have it so that in one locale you have lots of M16s and M4s and 5.56 ammo, give your troops those then. I dunno really how many 7.62 weapons the US mlitary has laying around though, the old M-14s maybe?

[Sarevok]

Hmm....

I would reduce production of humonoid Terminators and focus more on HK tanks and aircraft. Terminators are not technically mecha. But in a resource starved world a rudimentary box on wheels and a machinegun stuck on top makes more sense then hyper advanced cyborgs. Personally I would flood the humans with droid tanks.

After all what is more dangerous - a T-72 driven by a Skynet derived CPU and still retaining good old tank armor and brutal firepower or a T-800 ?

[Starglider]

After all what is more dangerous - a T-72 driven by a Skynet derived CPU and still retaining good old tank armor and brutal firepower or a T-800 ?

Skynet may be limited by the availability of bulk alloys and fuel/power supplies more than anything else. An armored android would be more expensive for us to make than a tank, because it has so many close-tolerance parts and sophisticated electronics, but for Skynet's automated factories cost may be much more proportional to mass. That's a rationalisation of course, but it's a relatively plausible justification for hordes of chrome skeletons making sense instead of more tanks.

[Sea Skimmer]

It doesn't have to be an either/or issue.

Just issue terminators with both 5.56 and 7.62, depending on the local situation. You could have it so that in one locale you have lots of M16s and M4s and 5.56 ammo, give your troops those then. I dunno really how many 7.62 weapons the US mlitary has laying around though, the old M-14s maybe?

Not many. Bill Clinton ordered the military to destroy over 1 million M14 rifles in the early 1990s. Now the US military has an enormous demand for more of them for long range fighting in Afghanistan, and they simply don’t exist. Only about 20,000 or so were found digging through back corners and old bunkers to be converted to designated marksman rifles. Some were even bought off the civilian market, and now the military is in the situation that it is actually buying new built M14s (in various DMR configurations) at four grand a pop.

Thankfully we've as of yet not faced an enemy to make is regret letting Clinton scrap or convert into reefs tens of thousands of carefully preserved M60 tanks, M113s and combat aircraft.

After all what is more dangerous - a T-72 driven by a Skynet derived CPU and still retaining good old tank armor and brutal firepower or a T-800 ?

That would depend on what you want to do, tanks cannot traverse all the terrain a T-800 can and humans know it. A bombed out city, a thick forest, an area with many waterways and no bridges, these are not good places for a lone tank. Never mind that humans will simply hear the tank coming.

[His Divine Shadow]

Not many. Bill Clinton ordered the military to destroy over 1 million M14 rifles in the early 1990s. Now the US military has an enormous demand for more of them for long range fighting in Afghanistan, and they simply don’t exist. Only about 20,000 or so were found digging through back corners and old bunkers to be converted to designated marksman rifles. Some were even bought off the civilian market, and now the military is in the situation that it is actually buying new built M14s (in various DMR configurations) at four grand a pop.

Seems like a nice time to revisit the AR-10 design, or the HK417, or the Massoud.

[Swindle1984]

For stuff that's likely to be found 'as is' without needing a production line yet, I'd say just about anything from H&K, especially the G3 and G36. I'd ignore anything smaller then a 7.62mm round, unless its a pistol round, or in the case of the Five seveN/P90, a deliberate AP round. Something that even if they get hit in a BP vest, and it doesn't manage to penetrate, will still drive them to their knees from the impact/surprise/shock/pain/etc. Only reason I mentioned the G36 is because I keep hearing the its slightly better then the M16 & M4A1. Although if someone points me out to something proving that's wrong, I'll change my opinion.

I have to question the logic here. It's slightly better? In what way? Why is that even relevant (assuming it's even true, I'm sure it's more expensive), the whole point of using M4/M16s is because they exist in large numbers already.

I'd have to go with the M-16/M-4 over the G-36. Far more of those in existence, the United States has an ungodly number of accessories and improvements for it so you can customize your rifle six ways to Sunday, and you can find parts, magazines, and ammunition all over the world, even in countries where it wasn't adopted by the local military. Your M-16/M-4 can be a submachine gun, a pistol, a carbine, an assault rifle, a sniper rifle, or even a big game hunting rifle. Chamber it for .22 ammo, 9mm, .45ACP, 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 6.8mm, or .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf.

The G-36, meanwhile, is too new to have huge stockpiles of parts for it, hasn't been as widely adopted, isn't nearly as modular as the M-16/M-4 series, and the stock tends to melt when you fire it on full-auto for extended periods. Not nearly as bad as the abortion that was the XM-8 though. At least the G-36 uses the same 5.56x45mm ammunition as the M-16/M-4, so the logistics of using it aren't terrible.

But if you're arming your Terminators, based in North America, with pre-existing military weapons, it makes more sense to use the assault rifle of choice of the American and Canadian militaries. Not to mention the huge number of civilian AR-15's you could co-opt for parts, magazines, ammunition, and accessories.

[Swindle1984]

Not many. Bill Clinton ordered the military to destroy over 1 million M14 rifles in the early 1990s. Now the US military has an enormous demand for more of them for long range fighting in Afghanistan, and they simply don’t exist. Only about 20,000 or so were found digging through back corners and old bunkers to be converted to designated marksman rifles. Some were even bought off the civilian market, and now the military is in the situation that it is actually buying new built M14s (in various DMR configurations) at four grand a pop.

Seems like a nice time to revisit the AR-10 design, or the HK417, or the Massoud.

Or if you want to be really stingy with the budget, buy a bunch of surplus FN FAL's and stick a DS Arms optics rail on top. You won't have the same precision as an M1A/M-14 designated marksman rifle, but you've got the same range and ammo, and the FAL is a step up in reliability.

And God knows they made enough FAL's for someone to buy them at discount. Right Arm of the Free Arm, and all that.