Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Crossroads Inc. wrote:As far as I can tell the Only people making any sort of fuss about this or Rightwing blogs and Faux news... There hasn't so much been a blip on any other news network since he first said it a few days ago. The closest anyone came to bringing it up was an NPR interview abut his trip to the middle east when a Commentator simply said "Obama feels comfortable enough to say something he never could while campaigning" whihc was a passing reference to what he said.
I think the most pertinent question is whether it will gain strength over time. Media campaigns like this are long-term things, like the 30 year campaign to convince the American people that the War in Vietnam was going swimmingly until the Media ruined it. It gained very little traction at first, but they kept hammering at it year after year until it has become accepted wisdom.

I see the Republican campaign in 2012 being based on a "Let My People Go" theme.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

I hope this isn't beatign a dead horse... But I felt the need to post the following article.. not (solely) for the point of ridcule, but, because I feel it perfectily encapsulates the Christian rights view on WHY America is a "Christian Nation" as well explaining thier views on this is so damned important to them...

There are several "good points" made in the article that, were one not more educated, would lead you to think "Gee! they migth have a point, America must really BE foudned purely for Chrsitains."

So take the article for what it is... "I" found it extremily informative.
A Christian Nation?
by David Limbaugh
203 David Limbaugh's Email | Author Archive | Author Biography Read Comments | Post Comments
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

President Barack Obama said in Turkey: "We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values."

Well, I don't know what "we" consider "ourselves," but I do think we ought to examine that statement and why Obama felt compelled to make it a part of his world apology tour.

Can you imagine the Saudi king coming to America and bragging that his nation is not Muslim? I assure you that he's not ashamed of the Islamic character of his nation, even though his nation is demonstrably less tolerant of other religions.

So is (or was) America a Christian nation? If by that we mean that America is a Christian theocracy, that our government should give Christians preferential treatment, or that members of other faiths aren't welcome, the answer is an emphatic "no."

But if we are talking about the ideals that led to the very colonization of this land, our declaration of independence from Britain, and the formulation of our Constitution, then the answer is certainly "yes."

In the words of professor John Eidsmoe, "If by the term Christian nation one means a nation that was founded on biblical values that were brought to the nation by mostly professing Christians, then in that sense the United States may truly be called a Christian nation."

Why does this matter? Simply because our dominant secular culture delights in demonizing Christianity, distorting its character, conflating it with less tolerant faiths, and associating it with all our societal woes. History revisionists have convinced many that we mainly owe our liberties to secular humanist ideals and those borrowed from the Greeks, Romans and the French Enlightenment.

To the contrary, our freedom tradition can be traced to our predominantly Judeo-Christian roots.

While secularists endlessly cite a few high-profile members of our Founding Fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, as being deists (which itself is even debatable), the overwhelming majority of both the Declaration of Independence's and Constitution's signers were strong, practicing Christians, as the late Dr. M.E. Bradford meticulously documented.

Some point to the so-called generic references to God in the declaration and Thomas Jefferson's authorship of its first draft as evidence that its influences were non-Christian. But as Dr. Gary Amos has noted, "The humanists and Enlightenment rationalists viewed the concept of inalienable rights with scorn."

As for deists, they believed in a "cosmic watchmaker," not a superintending God.

Plus Jefferson's draft was vetted by a congressional committee, which made more than 80 changes, removing some 500 words and adding two references to a "providential God." Jefferson denied he was speaking solely for himself in the draft, saying "it was intended to be an expression of the American mind."

Nor could the declaration's affirmation that "all Men are created equal … (and) are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" have come from the polytheistic Greeks or Romans, because "Creator" is singular. And, as Amos observed, the Greeks didn't believe the universe or man was created, but that it "emanated … from an impersonal divine force that permeates the universe. … There was no room in Greek philosophy or religion for the notion of endowment because creatures and divinity were never separated." The Greeks "could not conceive of rights that were god given." They "believed that rights were a product of society and state."

Sounds hauntingly familiar, doesn't it?

The concept of unalienable rights inheres in the Judeo-Christian precept that an all-loving God created man in his image, thus entitling him to dignity, freedom and rights that cannot be divested by the state.

Our constitutional framework of government can only be understood in the context of the Framers' predominantly Christian worldview. While they believed in man's dignity, they also believed in his depravity and that only if they imposed limitations on government would it be possible to establish a scheme of individual liberties.

Much of our Bill of Rights is biblically based, as well, and the Ten Commandments and further laws set out in the book of Exodus form the basis of our Western law. Indeed, English legal giants Sir William Blackstone and Sir Edward Coke both believed the common law was based on Scripture. Though we often hear there were no references to the God of the Bible in the Constitution, the document closes by citing the date with "in the Year of our Lord."

Our ruling class today is dominated by those who no longer believe that our rights are God-given or that our liberties depend on effective limitations on the state. They are so divorced from true history and American statecraft that they fail to see the irony in their dissociation with and apologies for our Judeo-Christian heritage, which is responsible for making this the freest and most prosperous nation on earth for people of all races, ethnicities and religions.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Do you want us to start the punching? Honestly, the article reeks of ignorance.
But if we are talking about the ideals that led to the very colonization of this land, our declaration of independence from Britain, and the formulation of our Constitution, then the answer is certainly "yes."
The reason the colonists from Jamestown came over was for gold. Than they found tabacco and the rest is history. The colonists for New England came to form a more oppressive theocratic state because the Anglicans were too lax (Sports on Sunday! The nerve!). Of course, half of the Mayflower was individuals who wanted to come to Virginia and were less than pleased they were in New England, hence the creation of the Mayflower Compact to appease them.
conflating it with less tolerant faiths
:?: There are faiths less tolerant then Christianity? I thought it was in the category "believe or else".
"The humanists and Enlightenment rationalists viewed the concept of inalienable rights with scorn."
Because right based morality doesn't work? The simplest problem is that you have to choose between rights and find something higher.. in which case it collapses.
"all Men are created equal … (and) are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" have come from the polytheistic Greeks or Romans, because "Creator" is singular.
Except that their mythologies had only one creator God.
They "believed that rights were a product of society and state."

Sounds hauntingly familiar, doesn't it?
The irnoy of attacking the conception of societally granted rights while wanking to the constitution just breaks the scale. What does he think the constitution is doing?
The concept of unalienable rights inheres in the Judeo-Christian precept that an all-loving God created man in his image, thus entitling him to dignity, freedom and rights that cannot be divested by the state.
Which is why several of the rights can be repealed in case of emergency or are vague enough to be ignore in times of war.
Our constitutional framework of government can only be understood in the context of the Framers' predominantly Christian worldview. While they believed in man's dignity, they also believed in his depravity and that only if they imposed limitations on government would it be possible to establish a scheme of individual liberties.
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Much of our Bill of Rights is biblically based, as well, and the Ten Commandments and further laws set out in the book of Exodus form the basis of our Western law.
The 10 commandments are a contract/treaty, while the bill of rights are an alteration to a governing document.
freest and most prosperous nation on earth for people of all races, ethnicities and religions.
The "freest" would be Somalia, unless you want actual freedom in which case it is debatable. The richest is Qatar in GDP per capita.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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As it so happens, the Enlightenment did in fact believe in inalienable natural rights, and this just shows that David Limbaugh is a mouth-breather who has no conception of how people believed that rights could be impirically derived from rational thought, as Kant showed during the enlightenment. So that crucial supposition is simply dead wrong.

So, too, is the claim that Greeks and Romans wouldn't have used the term "Creator" because they were polytheistic, because polytheistic religions in general tend to have a supreme God, and monotheistic concepts of religion were well established, as well as the idea that there was just a single universal creating force, in the Greco-Roman philosophical tradition which was crucial to their elites, regardless of what the lower classes believed or didn't believe, the Greco-Roman elite was indeed fairly highly atheistic, as such things may be counted.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Samuel wrote:
Much of our Bill of Rights is biblically based, as well, and the Ten Commandments and further laws set out in the book of Exodus form the basis of our Western law.
The 10 commandments are a contract/treaty, while the bill of rights are an alteration to a governing document.
It's also quite patently ridiculous as only 3 of the 10 commandments are enshrined in law (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not bear false witness) and the last one is only illegal sometimes. I guess there are blue laws, but they're largely gone now. It;s a bit of a leap to go from "we have 30% in common with this" to "this forms the basis of our Western law".
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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I love the way they pretend that human rights can be deduced logically from the premise of Christianity, and make no effort whatsoever to explain how one performs this deduction. It's almost like "Steal underwear ... profit!"

The most preposterous thing is the notion that Christianity leads to any human rights at all, never mind the ones enumerated in the US Constitution. The entire religion is predicated upon the idea that we intrinsically deserve nothing but pain and suffering, and that anything other than that can only be apportioned out by divine "grace".

Rather than saying "You have innate rights", Christian doctrine says "You have no rights at all, but if you're really nice, God might treat you to some of the privileges you don't deserve".
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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While secularists endlessly cite a few high-profile members of our Founding Fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, as being deists (which itself is even debatable), the overwhelming majority of both the Declaration of Independence's and Constitution's signers were strong, practicing Christians, as the late Dr. M.E. Bradford meticulously documented.
The founding fathers were all male and all white. Is America a male, white nation now?
and apologies for our Judeo-Christian heritage
Oh for fuck's sake. I have had it up to here with right wingers using this 'Judeo-Christian' nonsense. Someone needs to point out that the Jewish and Christian communities were segregated from each other theologically ever since Christians stopped going to the synagogues. Europe was never some lovey dovey place where Judaism and Christians could share their principles in peace. What right wingers mean by Judeo-Christian is purely Christian, but tag Judaism on for whatever reason.

Judaism had no or extremely little influence on the founding of America, which is not surprising considering its marginalised status in Europe for centuries. This concept of 'Judeo-Christian' would have been nonsensical to Europeans and Americans at the time, other than in the purely historical sense; in that one came from the other and borrowed one half of the Bible.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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While secularists endlessly cite a few high-profile members of our Founding Fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, as being deists (which itself is even debatable), the overwhelming majority of both the Declaration of Independence's and Constitution's signers were strong, practicing Christians, as the late Dr. M.E. Bradford meticulously documented.
—and utterly irrelevant, considering that the one was not a document of law and the other clearly does not advance a religious component to the law, and that's what thsoe people cheerfully signed onto without a second thought on the matter. Just as they voted without dissent on ratifying a treaty which stated flatly that "the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion".
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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These people say "Judeo-Christian heritage" and assume it means their particular brand of evangelical protestantism. The problem? The dominant sects during the Enlightenment were those denominations now regarded as liberal and mainstream. The precursor to modern fundamentalism didn't exist until the mid 1800s, and modern evangelicalism didn't exist until the 1950s. A "strong, practicing" Christian back then was someone who went to a little white church-house every Sunday. He certainly wasn't someone who hopped into his SUV and drove to a mega-church for an hour-long emotional multimedia experience with thousands of other swooning worshipers, and then "voted his conscience" in the election based on what his pastor told him. The worldview of these people was almost certainly Christian - there's no way it couldn't have absorbed Christianity after 1500 years of that religion's domination - but there is certainly not just one "Christian" worldview, and anyone who thinks the modern evangelical Christian worldview is anything like the dominant educated-class Christian worldview has clearly not studied any history.

I also love this bullshit about the state being "unable to take rights away from people" because God has given them. Well guess what: we have examples all over the world of states doing just that! If this claim really were correct - if it were literally impossible for a country to take away certain human rights, then we shouldn't see it happening!
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Surlethe wrote:I also love this bullshit about the state being "unable to take rights away from people" because God has given them. Well guess what: we have examples all over the world of states doing just that! If this claim really were correct - if it were literally impossible for a country to take away certain human rights, then we shouldn't see it happening!
I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but this displays a gross ignorance of what actually constitutes rights-based ethical theory, which by no means proposes that rights cannot be violated. The idea that a rights-based ethical system proposes that it is somehow physically impossible to violate rights is absurd; the proposition is that violating human rights is morally wrong, not humanly impossible.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Rogue 9 wrote:
Surlethe wrote:I also love this bullshit about the state being "unable to take rights away from people" because God has given them. Well guess what: we have examples all over the world of states doing just that! If this claim really were correct - if it were literally impossible for a country to take away certain human rights, then we shouldn't see it happening!
I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but this displays a gross ignorance of what actually constitutes rights-based ethical theory, which by no means proposes that rights cannot be violated. The idea that a rights-based ethical system proposes that it is somehow physically impossible to violate rights is absurd; the proposition is that violating human rights is morally wrong, not humanly impossible.
The key part of my paragraph is "because God has given them". Rights are certainly an acceptable formulation of ethics, but saying that the state can't take them away because God has established them is just silly. Perhaps an evangelical would amend this to say that it is unethical for a state to violate human rights because God has established them as moral law - that would be consistent with the "obedience = morality" Biblical ethic - but as it stands it makes no sense.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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Count Chocula wrote:"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)
Recently I've been learning more about ancient Roman law than I ever wanted to know, and it's funny: the Roman legal system, created by people who had never even heard of the Bible, is far more similar to our modern legal system than anything in that accursed holy book. They had courts with proper record-keeping, and an evolving system of written laws that changed to deal with changing circumstances, and even legal scholars who wrote handy reference texts about the law. The Bible had... what? Stoning? A bunch of asinine laws about menstruation? An unhealthy obsession with the incineration of goats?

Anybody who thinks that our laws are based on the Bible is speaking from cavalier ignorance or extreme stupidity. And either way, they deserve no respect.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

Post by Ilya Muromets »

Aside from the points already given, the most egregious part to that recently posted article has to be this little bit (emphasis mine):
History revisionists have convinced many that we mainly owe our liberties to secular humanist ideals and those borrowed from the Greeks, Romans and the French Enlightenment.


Historical revisionists accusing others of exactly what they're doing. It'd be pretty funny if a lot of people didn't actually buy that tripe.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

It's called projecting, it's a common psychological/pathological occurannce.
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Re: Apparently Obama is now against religion

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That's right, we totally don't owe anything to Enlightenment philosophers. It's not like the founding fathers copied any philosophers (like, say, John Locke) word-for-word, right?
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
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