And Then Meanwhile in Kosovo

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7990984.stm

Horrors of KLA prison camps revealed
Michael Montgomery
BBC Radio 4, Crossing Continents

The man spoke plainly as he explained the horrors he lived through in a Kosovo Liberation Army prison camp 10 years ago. He told me about how he watched people beaten with steel pipes, cut with knives, left for days without food, and shot and killed.

"What can you feel when you see those things?" he said. "It's something that is stuck in my mind for the rest of my life. You cannot do those things to people, not even to animals."

As the man talked, his mother paced nervously in the nearby kitchen. She was panicked and tears were streaming down her face.

"They'll kill him, they'll kill him," she moaned, clutching one of her grandchildren.

But her son persisted. We spent hours in the family's sitting room as our source detailed allegations of possible war crimes by KLA officers in a military camp in the Albanian border town of Kukes.

It was a crucial interview for a delicate story I have been investigating for years.

Mystery of the missing

Soon after the war ended in Kosovo, I started looking into the thousands of civilians who disappeared during and after the conflict. Many Albanian victims were dumped in wells or transported to mass graves as far away as Belgrade.
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But others - mainly Serbs - simply vanished without a trace. There were no demands for ransom, no news of any kind.

I had met sources who spoke vaguely about secret camps in Albania where Kosovo Serbs, Albanians and Roma were interrogated, tortured and in most cases killed.

I met another source who agreed to share important details about KLA prison camps. This man cut a very different profile.

He had returned from a successful career abroad to join the KLA in its fight for Kosovo's independence from Serbia.

The man was still proud of the goals he fought for, but he had become haunted by the treatment of civilians he had seen at a KLA prison camp. More than that, he said he felt angry and betrayed by KLA commanders who tolerated and even ordered the abuses.

"It didn't seem strange at the time," he told me as he described seeing desperate civilians locked in a filthy agricultural shed.
“ Now, looking back, I know that some of the things that were done to innocent civilians were wrong ”
Former KLA Fighter

He said the civilians were Serbs and Roma seized by KLA soldiers and were being hidden away from Nato troops. The source believes the captives were sent across the border to Albania and killed.

"Now, looking back, I know that some of the things that were done to innocent civilians were wrong. But the people who did these things act as if nothing happened, and continue to hurt their own people, Albanians."

This man was one of eight former KLA fighters who revealed some of their darkest secrets from the war.

A soldier's story

Yet another source spoke of driving trucks packed with shackled prisoners - mainly Serbian civilians from Kosovo - to secret locations in Albania where they were eventually killed.

He recalled hearing two of the captives begging to be shot rather than tortured and "cut into pieces".

"I was sick. I was just waiting for it to end," the source told me. "It was hard. I thought we were fighting a war [of liberation] but this was something completely different."

It has taken these men 10 years to speak to an outsider about the dark side of the war. They were breaking a code of silence that has held strong in Kosovo.

Very few Kosovo Albanians have publicly revealed crimes committed by their own side. And for good reason. Witnesses who have agreed to provide testimony for prosecutions of KLA commanders have faced intimidation and death threats.

Some have been killed, according to United Nations officials in Kosovo.

There is another reason. All the men we spoke with insisted they were Kosovan patriots and would take up arms again to defend the country's independence.

But that is precisely the point: independence - of a sort - arrived for Kosovo last year. Their wartime goal has been attained.

As one of the former KLA fighters told me: "Now is the time to be honest to ourselves and build a real state."

Crossing Continents: Kosovo will broadcast on BBC Radio 4 on Thursday, 9 April 2009 at 1100 BST. The programme will be repeated on Monday, 13 April at 2030 BST.

So when is the International Tribunal going to try some of these rascals for war crimes or crimes against humanity? It's kinda hilarious that years after the bombing of Yugoslavia, the KLA goes scott free for the most part, while the EU insists on the trying of Serbian Generals. When will the full truth be told?

[Artemas]

Haven't you heard?

Only one side is allowed to be the bad guys.

[Sidewinder]

When will the full truth be told?

Like the Armenian Holocaust, or Japanese war crimes in China and Southeast Asia, the "full truth" will NOT be told until the superpowers deem it politically and diplomatically useful to MAKE the perpetrators apologize for these crimes. Turkey will be FORCED to apologize when Armenia becomes more important than it to American interests (unlikely), Japan will be FORCED to apologize when China becomes more important than it to American interests (also unlikely), and Kosovo/Kosova will be FORCED to apologize when Russia becomes more... cooperative... than it in advancing American interests (EXTREMELY unlikely).

[K. A. Pital]

Did anyone for a second even not consider the KLA a bunch of war criminals? Oh wait, of course not, ethnic minorities cannot be evil torturous bastards chopping up innocent civilians. They can only be white knights in shining armor. Or so the idiotic philosophy of nationalism would have us believe. It's not so. And any attempts to bring attention to the crimes of KLA or the anti-Serb ethnic cleansing which followed the Kosovo conflict and even intensified after it, was met with extreme reluctance or even outright ignorance by the NATO states - there's little to wonder about here.

Kosovo will never be forced to apologize for anything because Serbia is a toothless rump state right now. The USA won't give a fuck about KLA crimes, which is par the course. The KFOR won't protect Serb civilians because it consistently failed to do that in the time from Kosovo war until now.

Basically, it's all pre-determined and there's nothing that can be done.

[fgalkin]

He said the civilians were Serbs and Roma seized by KLA soldiers and were being hidden away from Nato troops. The source believes the captives were sent across the border to Albania and killed.

Say hello to your newest member, NATO.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[K. A. Pital]

Wait, whut? Albania, one of the very the poorest, and the very baddest nations in Eastern Europe... is in the NATO? I guess in that case I'd say I agree to Ukraine being in the NATO. Just kick out Albania before you call Ukraine in.

[Stargate Nerd]

When will the full truth be told?

Like the Armenian Holocaust, or Japanese war crimes in China and Southeast Asia, the "full truth" will NOT be told until the superpowers deem it politically and diplomatically useful to MAKE the perpetrators apologize for these crimes. Turkey will be FORCED to apologize when Armenia becomes more important than it to American interests (unlikely), Japan will be FORCED to apologize when China becomes more important than it to American interests (also unlikely), and Kosovo/Kosova will be FORCED to apologize when Russia becomes more... cooperative... than it in advancing American interests (EXTREMELY unlikely).

It's highly unlikely that any country can ever be forced into something like that unless you plan to bomb, invade and install a new government more appreciative of your moral superiority. Like it was done to Nazi Germany or Serbia.

Besides doesn't Japan already recognize it's crimes in China, Korea and other parts of Asia? I thought those crimes being omitted from school books is a recent development, in contrast to decades of acceptance.

[mr friendly guy]

Japan even when supposedly apologising for its treatment of Australia POWs usually use language which is not specific enough, such that it can interpreted as not quite an apology, usually things like we regret what happened, but without coming out and saying sorry. Because frankly one can regret something happen but refuse to say sorry. Just look at how lawyers encourage doctors not to actually say sorry for fear it would leave them vulnerable to law suits.

The same psuedo logic was applied here when for years the government refused to apologised for stealing Indigenous children away from their parents.

The funny thing is, Japan is quite willing to compensate under certain circumstances, such as left over weapons remaining in China which occasionally injures people. They won't of course acknowledge war crimes, because its one thing to admit they fought and loss, its another to say they were actually the aggressors who crossed the line, because it was all those nasty American's fault.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Japan is notorious for half assed apologies, and even if there are apologies, there will be those who would decry the apologies, and then subsequently you have a PM who refuses to apologise and then visits that Shinto Shrine to placate the die hard nationalists.

The real problem with most of Europe was that there was a veneration of the "Oppressed REbels fighting for FREEDOM!" and yeah, everyone bought into the affair, and then subsequently bypassed the UN to get the "job" done. The UN hasn't been made to look more a fool and ineffectual than ever.

[Stargate Nerd]

Japan is notorious for half assed apologies, and even if there are apologies, there will be those who would decry the apologies, and then subsequently you have a PM who refuses to apologise and then visits that Shinto Shrine to placate the die hard nationalists.

The real problem with most of Europe was that there was a veneration of the "Oppressed REbels fighting for FREEDOM!" and yeah, everyone bought into the affair, and then subsequently bypassed the UN to get the "job" done. The UN hasn't been made to look more a fool and ineffectual than ever.

That attitude isn't unique to Japan. I don't know of any country that has ever explicitly apologized for it's crimes in the way that Germany did after WW2.

[Tiriol]

Japan is notorious for half assed apologies, and even if there are apologies, there will be those who would decry the apologies, and then subsequently you have a PM who refuses to apologise and then visits that Shinto Shrine to placate the die hard nationalists.

The real problem with most of Europe was that there was a veneration of the "Oppressed REbels fighting for FREEDOM!" and yeah, everyone bought into the affair, and then subsequently bypassed the UN to get the "job" done. The UN hasn't been made to look more a fool and ineffectual than ever.

That attitude isn't unique to Japan. I don't know of any country that has ever explicitly apologized for it's crimes in the way that Germany did after WW2.

I think that Gorbatsov apologized for the Soviet invasion of Finland in the Winter War (and for the infamous "firings of Mainila") just before the Soviet Union went the way of the dodo, although he didn't specify anything else. Of course, he didn't have anything to lose by that point.

[Guardsman Bass]

Did anyone for a second even not consider the KLA a bunch of war criminals? Oh wait, of course not, ethnic minorities cannot be evil torturous bastards chopping up innocent civilians. They can only be white knights in shining armor. Or so the idiotic philosophy of nationalism would have us believe. It's not so. And any attempts to bring attention to the crimes of KLA or the anti-Serb ethnic cleansing which followed the Kosovo conflict and even intensified after it, was met with extreme reluctance or even outright ignorance by the NATO states - there's little to wonder about here.

Was most of that hold-over animosity from the US and NATO towards Serbia and Milosevic from the pre-1995 period in Bosnia, turned institutional once the peacekeeping forces were in place?

[Stargate Nerd]

Japan is notorious for half assed apologies, and even if there are apologies, there will be those who would decry the apologies, and then subsequently you have a PM who refuses to apologise and then visits that Shinto Shrine to placate the die hard nationalists.

The real problem with most of Europe was that there was a veneration of the "Oppressed REbels fighting for FREEDOM!" and yeah, everyone bought into the affair, and then subsequently bypassed the UN to get the "job" done. The UN hasn't been made to look more a fool and ineffectual than ever.

That attitude isn't unique to Japan. I don't know of any country that has ever explicitly apologized for it's crimes in the way that Germany did after WW2.

I think that Gorbatsov apologized for the Soviet invasion of Finland in the Winter War (and for the infamous "firings of Mainila") just before the Soviet Union went the way of the dodo, although he didn't specify anything else. Of course, he didn't have anything to lose by that point.

Yeah the USSR is a good example. I think Khrushchev "apologized" for the crimes of Stalin against the people's of the Caucasus as well if I'm not mistaken.

[ExarKun]

KLA was created by Serbian brutality and oppression. While their crimes can't be excused, I would hazard a guess that's the reason the West turned the blind eye.

[K. A. Pital]

KLA was created by Serbian brutality and oppression.

It was also created by criminality, islamism and Albanian foreign agents. A nice set of reasons - don't cherrypick just one

[Steve]

But, but, this is UNPOSSIBLE! The Media told me that the Albanians were poor innocent people being murdered en-masse by the Serbs like the Jews were murdered by the Nazis!

*sighs*

And so we continue on our merry way, ignorance permitting award to those who don't deserve it and turning a blind eye to suffering because we don't find it convenient to recognize it as occurring. Still turning in the widening gyre of our own arrogance and small-mindedness.

Perhaps, however, a reckoning of some sort will one day be at hand, and our gross ignorance will yet be paid for in our own blood and treasure.

[Netko]

Well, some of the top commanders of the KLA were charged by the ICTY for war crimes - some specifically do to prisoner treatment, so it isn't true that their war crimes were completely ignored. Most of them were found not guilty at trial though (you can browse the individual cases at the Hague Justice Portal), but some were found guilty and sentenced.

[Netko]

KLA was created by Serbian brutality and oppression.

It was also created by criminality, islamism and Albanian foreign agents. A nice set of reasons - don't cherrypick just one

You forgot the total collapse of the economy do to the, among other things, flow of the less developed regions aid stopping because of the breakup of Yugoslavia, and Serbia (or the totality of then rump Yugoslavia) not trying to do anything constructive to fix it, especially for the Albanian (Kosovar) majority.

[K. A. Pital]

You forgot the total collapse of the economy

Hmm. You're right. In fact, these reasons I listed are more of a consequence of Yugoslavia's collapse than actual, deeper reasons. Criminality and corruption is a consequence of governmental and economic collapse.