The Cyborgs Are Coming: Luke Arm (It's about damned time)

[Broomstick]

A little good news for the world from the folks who brought you the Internet and GPS (DARPA); the insulin pump and the Segway (Dean Kamen and DEKA); and a dash of inspiration from, yes, Star Wars (that's the "Luke" in "The Luke Arm") we have the next generation in prosthetic arms:

Warning - it's a video which may be a problem for dial-up

Frankly, this is jaw-dropping. Even for a full arm replacement they've brought it in under the required weight, have already worked out several configurations and control systems to accommodate various levels of amputation, and more importantly, this is a HAND, not a hook. I first heard about it on 60 Minutes where one of the guys who got to try out one of the prototypes got choked up at having a hand again. This thing is intended to be a human hand, one that can grip a grape or a powertool with equal adeptness. They've even got a force-feed back system so the user can sense how strongly he/she is gripping something.

Why is this being funded largely through the US Military? IED's, mostly - young American men and women get their limbs blown off daily. Artificial legs do pretty well these days but hands... that's a hard one. The human hand is an amazing appendage and one that's never been satisfactorily replaced once lost.

Right now, they're getting ready to have the "test pilots" take the arms home and, basically, beat the living hell out of them to see how they fare in the real world. They want an arm that's a rugged tool, not a fragile piece of artwork.

What to know what the best thing is?

This isn't some classified project - there are no plans to keep this technology locked up once it's developed. Like some other technologies originally developed by the US military this is going to see at least as much use in civilian life, if not more.

[Vehrec]

I am getting chills watching the video-good ones, mind you. Chills that come from 'wow that's so cool' instead of 'man that's just wrong.' I've always been a critic of the segway-but this is very cool. And very very important to probably millions of amputees worldwide.

I wonder how long before we see one covered in some kind of artifical skin.

[Broomstick]

I'm not sure we will - I remember when I was kid these hideous pink vinyl coverings on artificial limbs but more and more I'm seeing people walking around on obvious fake legs without seeming to care how much of the mechanism shows. I also recall seeing more hooks than fake glove hands in recent years. Particularly for the legs, society seems much more accepting of the obviously artificial than when I was 15 or 20 years old a quarter century ago.

Maybe it's because the old prosthetic limbs were such clumsy affairs that the effort was made to disguise them, even if it didn't really work. The new legs work so well, though, that they have a certain elegance that comes from well designed machinery. The Luke Arm reminds me of that - there's a certain coolness to how it works and how it looks. It looks more alive than the old limbs with their fake skin no matter how well-colored they were. It has to do with the motion, which is so much closer to flesh and blood than the old style hands and arms.

[Singular Intellect]

This is fucking awesome. The video was amazing to watch; I can only imagine how the amputees feel about these kinds of breakthroughs.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Since, from what I've read, the human arm masses about 6.5% of total body weight, the entire 8lb apparatus apparently weighs as much as the arm of a 120lb (55kg) person. That's pretty impressive, considering how much metal that's made out of. Granted, it was modeled after a female arm, but that means it's still about 1:1 compared to the arm it was modeled after.

[Kanastrous]

I hope never to need one, but if I were using one of those I'd finish it in carbon fiber and anodized metal.

That thing is art as much as it is engineering; it deserves to be shown off.

[Singular Intellect]

I'll start getting really impressed when not only is the interface tied direct to the brain, but the arms provide superior movement and capability compared to their natural counterparts.

Although that's obviously still a ways off, I'm sure we're getting closer.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Very impressive.

I'm not sure we will - I remember when I was kid these hideous pink vinyl coverings on artificial limbs but more and more I'm seeing people walking around on obvious fake legs without seeming to care how much of the mechanism shows. I also recall seeing more hooks than fake glove hands in recent years. Particularly for the legs, society seems much more accepting of the obviously artificial than when I was 15 or 20 years old a quarter century ago.

Maybe it's because the old prosthetic limbs were such clumsy affairs that the effort was made to disguise them, even if it didn't really work. The new legs work so well, though, that they have a certain elegance that comes from well designed machinery. The Luke Arm reminds me of that - there's a certain coolness to how it works and how it looks. It looks more alive than the old limbs with their fake skin no matter how well-colored they were. It has to do with the motion, which is so much closer to flesh and blood than the old style hands and arms.

Perhaps part of the reason is that bare machinery produces less of an "Uncanny Valley" effect. A hook or an obvious mechanical limb just doesn't have the same creepy vibe that a bad fake does ( at least for me ).

[Broomstick]

I'll start getting really impressed when not only is the interface tied direct to the brain, but the arms provide superior movement and capability compared to their natural counterparts.

Oh, please - we're talking about taking people who can't wipe their own ass and giving them their independence back. THAT is the impressive leap, not the one you're talking about. Making broken people whole again is a hell of a lot more important than simply tweaking the original design. You clearly have no idea of the problems involved in simply duplicating the human arm and hand - once that's done modifying it for special purposes will be relatively trivial.

It's already "tied direct to the brain" dumbshit, via the surviving muscles and nerves, which is how YOUR arms work. Or did you miss the part where they're trying to utilize whatever residual natural signals remain so that the user moves the new limb as effortlessly as the original? Hooks can't manipulate doorknobs but this prosthetic can. "Tied directly into the brain" - WHY? Please explain to me how performing brain surgery is superior to utilizing the nerves already in place. Sure, for some people that won't work, that's why they came up with alternate control systems, but ideally you tie what's left to the new part. You don't go cutting up people's skulls for no damn good reason other than "it's cool".

Since, from what I've read, the human arm masses about 6.5% of total body weight, the entire 8lb apparatus apparently weighs as much as the arm of a 120lb (55kg) person. That's pretty impressive, considering how much metal that's made out of. Granted, it was modeled after a female arm, but that means it's still about 1:1 compared to the arm it was modeled after.

One of the problems of medical replacement technology is that it is all too frequently sized for men and the fact that women are smaller is ignored. This was a problem for quite awhile with both knee and hip replacements, which was one reason they tended to be less successful in women.

By sizing this for a woman's arm they'll have a prosthetic that can be used by most people of both genders. It's always easier to add weight and structure, not so easy remove it.

[Singular Intellect]

I'll start getting really impressed when not only is the interface tied direct to the brain, but the arms provide superior movement and capability compared to their natural counterparts.

Oh, please - we're talking about taking people who can't wipe their own ass and giving them their independence back. THAT is the impressive leap, not the one you're talking about. Making broken people whole again is a hell of a lot more important than simply tweaking the original design.

I agree for the most part, but regardless whether you approve or not on the idea of improving on the original design, we are already heading in that direction. See here also.

It's already "tied direct to the brain" dumbshit, via the surviving muscles and nerves, which is how YOUR arms work. Or did you miss the part where they're trying to utilize whatever residual natural signals remain so that the user moves the new limb as effortlessly as the original?

Really? I must have missed that part, because from what I saw and heard it was still being operated via physical means, like the pressure points in the foot piece.

Hooks can't manipulate doorknobs but this prosthetic can. "Tied directly into the brain" - WHY? Please explain to me how performing brain surgery is superior to utilizing the nerves already in place. Sure, for some people that won't work, that's why they came up with alternate control systems, but ideally you tie what's left to the new part. You don't go cutting up people's skulls for no damn good reason other than "it's cool".

I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. I'm not suggesting Borgifying people or whatever image you apparently got. I was pointing out it would be great if we get to the point where the brain will be read for control signals rather than trying to work with destroyed/damaged/non existent nerves and such.

[Napoleon the Clown]

In regards to artificial skin, the most likely material for it to be constructed from, in the case of people who want the arm to look as real as possible, is the silicone based skin. Though I don't know how well it would perform in gripping things and holding up to what we put our skin through day to day.


Even this level of control is incredible. In the event someone can produce an arm that has the speed of a real human arm, we'll have one of the greatest accomplishments of medical science. Even now, it's a nearly miraculous achievement. So much for "Government involvement will ruin a project."

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In the video, if you watched the entire thing, I'm pretty sure they said that the arm can be operated by nerves, muscles, OR a foot pedal depending on the level of damage to the individual in question.

[Kanastrous]

In regards to artificial skin, the most likely material for it to be constructed from, in the case of people who want the arm to look as real as possible, is the silicone based skin. <snip>

They should probably consult with the RealDoll people.

[Akkleptos]

This is just what the announcer in the video says: next generation prosthetics. Nothing about them is a radical advance or an exceptional breakthrough (except for -maybe- the modular design, I don't remember reading about anything similar before). What they mean with "next generation" is that it's just faster, lighter, better... and that I find to be very cool, indeed.

This things have been around since at least the 80's, when I was a child I remember how prosthetics like these (though much less advanced) would be shown on programmes such as "That's incredible!" and the like. And, yes, they'd sport that creepy rubbery-pink fake skin. Back then you could grab something, twist the wrist, and few things else. Of course, they didn't have sensory feedback so you had to be really careful if you didn't want to crush what you were grabbing (that's why "eating grapes" is brought up so often when they talk about this now one). But, even then, they were controlled through nerves already present in the arm (it took some learning and getting used to, though, as apparently neuroscience wasn't as advanced and they could just connect the nerves but apparently the signal for the hand to open that you had to send could've been anything like flipping the finger or any other random combination of muscle signals). Why, you ask? It turns out using residual nerves for controlling a prosthetic limb is more complicated than one would think ("just reattach the nerves to the proper contacts in the prosthetic, and voila!", uh, no go). But fortunately, great advances are being made in re-routing the sense of touch of lost limbs. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be for an amputee to feel something in his missing limb again.

They mentioned they (the next generation ones) can be controlled "by nerves, muscles, or even foot pedals" depending on the user (I'm asuming that not all the arms would be truly nerve-controlled. Why? Some people wouldn't appreciate that?). I also noticed that the guy trying it out on the video has an array of switches all over his body to control the arm (like in the sole of his right foot!), as well as vibrating electric motors and other electric bits all over his body to provide sensory feedback. Does that mean he won't get to keep the arm he's test-driving? That'd be just sad.

[Kodiak]

In regards to artificial skin, the most likely material for it to be constructed from, in the case of people who want the arm to look as real as possible, is the silicone based skin. <snip>

They should probably consult with the RealDoll people.

There's been a lot of work done on synthetic skin for prosthetics. I was trying for a job opening at Touch Bionics in NY and they have an entire division of skin synthetics.

[Darth Wong]

I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. I'm not suggesting Borgifying people or whatever image you apparently got. I was pointing out it would be great if we get to the point where the brain will be read for control signals rather than trying to work with destroyed/damaged/non existent nerves and such.

No, you were saying that you were not too impressed with the advent of these next-generation prosthetics. Shall I presume that your own engineering skills are so fantastic that you actually have some basis for this dismissive attitude? Perhaps you feel that these simplistic devices are just too primitive to impress you? Or maybe you just said something dumb and you're trying hard to justify it after the fact.

[Singular Intellect]

No, you were saying that you were not too impressed with the advent of these next-generation prosthetics. Shall I presume that your own engineering skills are so fantastic that you actually have some basis for this dismissive attitude? Perhaps you feel that these simplistic devices are just too primitive to impress you? Or maybe you just said something dumb and you're trying hard to justify it after the fact.

Or maybe I'm not as small minded as you and realize that as impressive as this technology is, there's potential for even more impressive breakthroughs and improvements in the future, eh?

But hey, let's go on pretending my very first post was not me saying this was fucking amazing or anything, right?

[Darth Wong]

No, you were saying that you were not too impressed with the advent of these next-generation prosthetics. Shall I presume that your own engineering skills are so fantastic that you actually have some basis for this dismissive attitude? Perhaps you feel that these simplistic devices are just too primitive to impress you? Or maybe you just said something dumb and you're trying hard to justify it after the fact.

Or maybe I'm not as small minded as you and realize that as impressive as this technology is, there's potential for even more impressive breakthroughs and improvements in the future, eh?

But hey, let's go on pretending my very first post was not me saying this was fucking amazing or anything, right?

As I suspected, you're just trying to desperately justify your dumb "I won't be really impressed until ..." statement, but now with extra indignant self-righteous attitude! Don't worry, I'm sure no one will see through this act at all. Your secret is safe with me.

[Darmalus]

I'm damn impressed by the control the guy in the video has, considering he doesn't have the direct nerve-interface they talked about. Looking at it, I realize this is a lab environment, but I wonder how long that battery lasts, and how weather proofed it is, or can be. But even it needs to be kept dry, it should be easier than ever to use an umbrella!

[Sriad]

It seems like Dean Kamen does his most interesting work 1: under the radar and 2: to help out handicapped people. (the walks-up-stairs wheelchair? Still fucking sweet.)

I'm glad he's focusing on this area more than Segwayesque boondoggles.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Or maybe I'm not as small minded as you and realize that as impressive as this technology is, there's potential for even more impressive breakthroughs and improvements in the future, eh?

But hey, let's go on pretending my very first post was not me saying this was fucking amazing or anything, right?

What's 'small-minded' is not caring that they just put together something that's going to provide comfort and freedom for millions of people. Can you imagine if Samuel Morse ran into a bar waving the first telegraph ever sent over his head, and everyone just shrugged and sed 'But can it send pictures with bluetooth?!'

[Aaron]

This is pretty amazing, I'd honestly pay to have one to replace my mangled arm out of my own pocket. I wonder how long it'll be before VAC gets in on this after it becomes marketable?

[Broomstick]

It's already "tied direct to the brain" dumbshit, via the surviving muscles and nerves, which is how YOUR arms work. Or did you miss the part where they're trying to utilize whatever residual natural signals remain so that the user moves the new limb as effortlessly as the original?

Really? I must have missed that part, because from what I saw and heard it was still being operated via physical means, like the pressure points in the foot piece.

Yeah, you really missed it. Yes, one guy was using foot pedals - it was also very clear in other parts of the video that the arm was using sensors on the remaining arm stump to pick signals from muscles and nerves on people with more of their original arm left. You only saw what you wanted to see.

I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. I'm not suggesting Borgifying people or whatever image you apparently got. I was pointing out it would be great if we get to the point where the brain will be read for control signals rather than trying to work with destroyed/damaged/non existent nerves and such.

No, what you were proposing was the equivalent of installing cochlear implants into everyone whether they needed one or not. There's a reason a cochlear implant is a last resort for deafness and not the first. Yes, a direct interface would be good for some people but for the vast majority of amputees digging into their brain would be a needless risk as there are already perfectly functional nerves still present in the stump which are already evolved to direct arm movements.

It also betrays your ignorance that you assume that during an amputation the nerves are "destroyed" - above the stump they are still intact in all but a few cases.

[Bounty]

That is an absolutely amazing piece of work. I used to go to school with a girl who has a prosthetic arm and she complained repeatedly about the relative lack of progress in upper extremity prosthetic design - a "good" arm was one that didn't weigh so much it strained her shoulder, and a design with a basic electrical grip was something she could only dream of.

This however - amazing. It is, quite literally, just like "Luke's arm" - anatomically correct (no awkward hook!), with sensory feedback, and even independently mobile fingers.

Perhaps part of the reason is that bare machinery produces less of an "Uncanny Valley" effect. A hook or an obvious mechanical limb just doesn't have the same creepy vibe that a bad fake does ( at least for me ).

I can understand why people would want to disguise prosthetics, but for me personally, it never really worked. Synthetic skin, at least the variety that was around ten years ago, looks just as artificial as bare metal, but far more unsettling. If I should ever be unfortunate enough to lose a limb, I'd be perfectly happy with a replacement that looks like the arm in the video; sure, it looks mechanical, but that's what it is.

[Broomstick]

This is just what the announcer in the video says: next generation prosthetics. Nothing about them is a radical advance or an exceptional breakthrough (except for -maybe- the modular design, I don't remember reading about anything similar before). What they mean with "next generation" is that it's just faster, lighter, better... and that I find to be very cool, indeed.

No, it really is a breakthrough - up until now prosthetic hands only had a "pincer" grip, a simple open-close of the fingers. This one has a much broader range of motion, hence the references to things like "key grip". It also has a "power grip" (used to handle heavy objects) and a "precision grip" (the finger-and-thumb-only grip used to pick up small, delicate objects like a grape). The hand is designed to truly mimic human dexterity with independent movement of all fingers and a truly opposable thumb. The one user opening a door knob is truly new - standard prosthetics can't do that because they don't have the necessary combination of grip and rotational ability. This one can. It also looks like the elbow joint has more flexibility - our elbows are not simple hinges, haven't some side to side movement as well as flex and unflex.

This things have been around since at least the 80's, when I was a child I remember how prosthetics like these (though much less advanced) would be shown on programmes such as "That's incredible!" and the like. And, yes, they'd sport that creepy rubbery-pink fake skin. Back then you could grab something, twist the wrist, and few things else.

No "and few things else". The myoelectric arm you refer to could bend at the elbow as a simple hinge, and the hand could open and close in a "pincer" grip like a crab claw. Later models added a wrist rotation. That's it. In addition they were heavy and cumbersome. How heavy? There was a double-arm amputee on my commuter train who once said to a helpful person suggesting such an arm that she had tried it and couldn't use one - it was too heavy, gave her back pain from supporting the weight, and she found her hooks to be more useful for her because she was able to wear them the 10 hours a day she needed to in order to hold down a job. Yes, for those who could tolerate them the myoelectric arm was an advance, but they weren't much better than their predecessors.

But, even then, they were controlled through nerves already present in the arm (it took some learning and getting used to, though, as apparently neuroscience wasn't as advanced and they could just connect the nerves but apparently the signal for the hand to open that you had to send could've been anything like flipping the finger or any other random combination of muscle signals).

More a matter that computer science wasn't as advance. You had to retrain the human nervous system to use myoelectrics. The Luke Arm uses microprocessors to teach the prosthetic how to interpret the remaining signals. As the guy said, it's the limb that does the learning, not the human. This makes for a much more natural use.

But fortunately, great advances are being made in re-routing the sense of touch of lost limbs. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be for an amputee to feel something in his missing limb again.

This is also a DARPA project. However, that will not work for all amputees as there are some cases where nerves are destroyed. Regardless, for those who can use the system this is a great advance.

They mentioned they (the next generation ones) can be controlled "by nerves, muscles, or even foot pedals" depending on the user (I'm amusing that not all the arms would be truly nerve-controlled. Why? Some people wouldn't appreciate that?). I also noticed that the guy trying it out on the video has an array of switches all over his body to control the arm (like in the sole of his right foot!), as well as vibrating electric motors and other electric bits all over his body to provide sensory feedback.

The gentleman you refer to using the foot pedals lost his arms to electrically-induced injuries. In addition to more or less cooking his arms off, electricity has a tendency to travel along nerves - he may be a case where the nerves are too damaged to use. He's sort of a "worst-case" test.