Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

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Stuart Mackey
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
A business does not operate under this principle. You cannot expect a business to even consider such things.
Given the cost of ransoms, you would think that said business would put weapons on their ships along with the necessary sensors and training, it would save them on ransoms and might even save them on insurance costs if they ship past Africa..sounds like the system merchant lines used to follow to deal with pirates..hmmmm
It sounds to me like it would cost more than paying the ransoms. Fancy and no doubt expensive sensors, plus weapons and mercenaries to handle those weapons for every ship that passes through a dangerous region would add up to a lot.
Bollocks. Its not that expensive to buy six or so .50 cal HMG's, NV goggles and thermal imagers for the bridge. The cost you have is training your own people on how to use them and that is negligible given the costs the public are paying to have a fleet of warships of Africa, and given the profits some of these shipping lines make, esp the oilers, they can manage it. Paying a training organisation to instruct on their weapons use is a hell of a lot less than the millions these ransoms amount to over time and on insurance risk premiums, and they will make it back on reduced insurance costs.

*edited to include "they can manage it" because I am a idiot and don't think when I type.*
Last edited by Stuart Mackey on 2009-04-13 09:22am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
A more plausible solution would be a UN resolution that would declare the areas supporting piracy to be outside the sovereignty of the very weak Somalian government and the put actual boots on the ground to arrest the pirates. They could be tried in special UN courts set up just for that purpose.
IIRC that has already been done, the rest is if governments have the will to actually do it.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Gigaliel »

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: The solution? Well, Port Royal eventually turned on the pirates, when the British government decided to stop sponsoring their activities. I think we know this won't happen in Somalia, so we turn to the second solution: destroy the port. Punitive air strikes on any port supporting pirate activities would send a pretty strong message. These ports and all the people living in them are profiting off the spoils of piracy.
Well, the only problem with that is that the people living in the pirate villages, who do not directly participate in the actual pirating, would receive a quite extraordinary and excessive punishment from air strikes (i.e. death, serious disability etc.). Such an extreme punishment for people who are guilty merely by association would be completely against Western legal and human rights principles.

A more plausible solution would be a UN resolution that would declare the areas supporting piracy to be outside the sovereignty of the very weak Somalian government and the put actual boots on the ground to arrest the pirates. They could be tried in special UN courts set up just for that purpose.
Why would ground troops cause less casualties than bombings? The pirates are massive source of revenue and I see no reason for the populace of the ports not to resist violently to keep them safe.

How would you even tell who the pirates were, anyway? I don't see informants being very useful for glorified police raids on the main source of revenue. It wouldn't be that difficult to keep people quiet with threats of violence against "traitors" as soon as the troops leave, either.

Unless you plan on occupying Somalia to bring some rule of law to the place. Which brings us back to my first point.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Darth Wong »

Ground troops won't work because the pirates can just go into hiding when they arrive, and come back out when they leave. That's what the Somali militias did when the US Marines arrived back in the early 90s. They didn't come back out until after the large US Marine force went away and left a token force to hold the place.

Besides, let's just say we can magically identify and kill every single pirate: would that solve the problem? Nope, because it's an incredibly lucrative line of work and others would simply take it up. It's like thinking that if you catch all of the thieves in the world, there would be no more robberies. It doesn't work that way; as long as the activity is profitable, people will keep doing it.

The solution? Make it appear less lucrative, by drilling the idea of severe consequences into the minds of those who would doing it, and those who would consider supplying and aiding those who do it. Unfortunately, in a society with no law and order, that requires something akin to a terror campaign.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Darth Wong wrote:Ground troops won't work because the pirates can just go into hiding when they arrive, and come back out when they leave. That's what the Somali militias did when the US Marines arrived back in the early 90s. They didn't come back out until after the large US Marine force went away and left a token force to hold the place.

Besides, let's just say we can magically identify and kill every single pirate: would that solve the problem? Nope, because it's an incredibly lucrative line of work and others would simply take it up. It's like thinking that if you catch all of the thieves in the world, there would be no more robberies. It doesn't work that way; as long as the activity is profitable, people will keep doing it.

The solution? Make it appear less lucrative, by drilling the idea of severe consequences into the minds of those who would doing it, and those who would consider supplying and aiding those who do it. Unfortunately, in a society with no law and order, that requires something akin to a terror campaign.
Speaking of:
U.S. Military Considers Attacks on Somali Pirates’ Land Bases

By Jeff Bliss

April 13 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. military is considering attacks on pirate bases on land and aid for the Somali people to help stem ship hijackings off Africa’s east coast, defense officials said.

The military also is drawing up proposals to aid the fledgling Somalia government to train security forces and develop its own coast guard, said the officials, who requested anonymity. The plans will be presented to the Obama administration as it considers a coordinated U.S. government and international response to piracy, the officials said.

The effort follows the freeing yesterday of Richard Phillips, a U.S. cargo ship captain held hostage since April 8 by Somali pirates. Security analysts said making shipping lanes safe would require disrupting the pirates’ support network on land.

“There really isn’t a silver-bullet solution other than going into Somalia and rooting out the bases” of the pirates, said James Carafano, senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based group.

In 1992, under then-President George H.W. Bush, U.S. forces that landed in Somalia to confront widespread starvation found themselves in the middle of a civil war. Forty-two Americans died before former President Bill Clinton pulled out the troops in 1994.

No such broad military effort is being seriously considered now, the defense officials said.

Need for Somali Support

The defense officials cautioned that any actions, whether diplomatic or military, would need the support of the Somali people, who are traditionally suspicious of foreign intervention.

President Barack Obama, who gave permission for the military operation to free Phillips yesterday, is coordinating the U.S. response to piracy with other countries and the shipping industry to reduce vessels’ vulnerability to attack, boost operations to foil attacks and prosecute any captured suspects, said a senior administration official.

The administration official, who requested anonymity, declined to provide further details.

U.S. officials said the goal of a response to the piracy problem would be to encourage Somalis to help clamp down on lawlessness and to ease poverty, an outgrowth of 18 years without a strong central government.

‘One Symptom’

“Piracy is one symptom of the difficult situation in Somalia,” said Laura Tischler, a State Department spokeswoman.

Under discussion are ways to send more direct food and agricultural aid to the country, the defense officials said.

The U.S. military’s African Command, or Africom, could lead the land-based effort. Unlike other commands, Africom doesn’t have large military units. It also has only one permanent base, in Djibouti. The staff of Africom is half civilian and half military personnel and includes representatives from the Departments of State, Treasury and Health and Human Services.

Any U.S. actions on the seas may be coordinated by the Fifth Fleet, which is based in Bahrain.

Also, efforts to ferret out pirates may be jointly conducted with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the defense official said.

Joint Partnerships

The U.S. has used a similar partnership between the military and law enforcement to fight drug cartels in South and Central America.

U.S. action would come as new approaches to fight piracy have emerged over the past seven months. In August, countries increased ship escorts and naval patrols around the Gulf of Aden, site of most East African attacks. In December, the United Nations Security Council unanimously passed an anti-piracy resolution.

The UN measure allowed for attacks on pirate land bases and led to the formation of a 28-nation group that has met twice since January to coordinate diplomatic, legal and military efforts.

In January, the U.S. also signed an agreement with Kenya to prosecute suspected pirates handed over by the U.S. military. The U.S. will try anyone who attempts to hijack U.S. ships or hold U.S. captives, Tischler said.

Countries should use existing legal codes, such as the Law of the Sea Treaty and Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation, to develop a process for prosecuting pirates, U.S. Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen said.

‘Ample Legal Requirements’

There are “ample legal requirements and jurisdiction to be able to take action against these pirates,” Allen said yesterday on ABC’s “This Week.” “That’s what we should be doing.”

The Obama administration also is urging shipping companies and international maritime groups to employ private security forces and take steps such as unbolting ladders that pirates could use to board a vessel.

The U.S. should make sure to involve other countries, international aid organizations and the shipping industry in its plans, security analysts said.

Lack of coordination has been a major reason for the proliferation of piracy incidents, said Yonah Alexander, director of the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies’ International Center for Terrorism Studies, a Washington-based policy group.

Lack of Strategy

“Everyone is trying to water their own tree rather than looking at the whole forest,” said Alexander, co-author of the soon-to-be-published “Terror on the High Seas: From Piracy to Strategic Challenge.” “The international community doesn’t have a coherent, holistic strategy to deal with this.”

Current military efforts have had limited success, security analysts said. In January, the U.S. formed Task Force 151, which uses ships, helicopters and Marine Corps snipers to thwart piracy in the region.

In February, the task force prevented pirates from seizing two vessels. It also responded to the seizure of Phillips’ vessel, the Maersk Alabama, which is operated by Maersk Line, the Norfolk, Virginia-based U.S. unit of Copenhagen-based A.P. Moeller-Maersk A/S.

About 25 warships from the European Union, the U.S., Turkey, Russia, India and China have concentrated their efforts to protect the Gulf of Aden.

In response, the pirates have moved south and further out to sea.

Futility

The capture of the Maersk Alabama, which was hijacked 500 miles south of the Gulf of Aden in the Indian Ocean, shows the futility of concentrating security forces solely at sea, said Neil Livingstone, chairman and chief executive officer of ExecutiveAction LLC, a Washington-based anti-terrorism consultant for businesses.

“It’s a massive area,” he said. “You can’t patrol all of it.”

The region Somali pirates operate in is equal in size to the Mediterranean and Red Seas combined.

The U.S. should take as its model the 1801 decision by then-President Thomas Jefferson to send a naval force to assault the land bases of Barbary pirates, who were extorting money from U.S. merchant ships off Libya’s coast, security analysts said.

The pirates eventually succumbed to a mixture of U.S. military and diplomatic pressure.

Before taking any action, though, the U.S. should come up with a plan so it isn’t caught unprepared like it was during its 1992 Somalia intervention, Carafano said.

“We need to be a little more thoughtful and rational” this time and develop a detailed strategy, he said.
(Edit: fixed a mistake where I quoted the wrong post)

So, it sounds like... boots on the ground?
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Can we just issue Letters of Marque and paying bounties on pirates? I seem to recall the US is one of the few nations that never signed the treaty about not giving those out anymore.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Big Phil »

Darth Wong wrote:Trying to solve the piracy problem with patrols is a classic example of 100% defense and 0% offense, which has never been a particularly good strategy. The enemy will exploit the weaknesses in your scheme, and it will cost a huge amount of money to implement: vastly more than the enemy is spending to threaten that defense.

The only solution to the Somalian piracy problem is punitive attacks on the port facilities which serve as bases for these pirates. Right now they're domestic celebrities. Fishing villages hail them as heroes, and grow fat on their loot. It's similar to the situation with Port Royal in Jamaica in the old days, where pirates (ironically often sponsored by Britain) operated out of the port and preyed on local shipping. They got service and resupply from the port, sailed out to kill and rape and loot those parties designated as fair game by their hosts, and then returned to spend their loot and enrich the local economy. A fun and profitable game for everyone ... except the victims.

The solution? Well, Port Royal eventually turned on the pirates, when the British government decided to stop sponsoring their activities. I think we know this won't happen in Somalia, so we turn to the second solution: destroy the port. Punitive air strikes on any port supporting pirate activities would send a pretty strong message. These ports and all the people living in them are profiting off the spoils of piracy.
Your solution would cause massive hand wringing, whining about the deaths of innocents, and lots of people calling Obama and the US bullies and murderers. That being said, it would work.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

My own preference is for constant cutting-out raids (the term comes from the age of sail, when it referred to cutting the anchor chains on an anchored ship which you had sent a raid to, to try and capture by boarding and small arms), sending detachments in RHIBs in with naval gunfire support to recapture by force of arms any freighter caught by the pirates, put a prize crew aboard it, and sail it to safe harbour, before the shipping company can pay a ransom, and indeed making it illegal for shipping companies that pay ransoms to do business in the United States. It should even be legal under international law for us to then demand a share of the value of the ship for having recaptured it from pirates on behalf of the shipping company, which could help fund the operations.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Darth Wong wrote:The solution? Make it appear less lucrative, by drilling the idea of severe consequences into the minds of those who would doing it, and those who would consider supplying and aiding those who do it. Unfortunately, in a society with no law and order, that requires something akin to a terror campaign.
That's part of how pirates were dealt with in the past. Places where they were known to gather would be assaulted and simply wiped off the map: dwellings, harbours, ships, all burned to cinders. Even if the raid failed to kill any pirates, there would be nothing left for them to pirate with. Do that enough times and eventually word would get around, the only thing piracy brings is destruction upon those who dare attempt it.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Alyeska »

Stuart Mackey wrote:Bollocks. Its not that expensive to buy six or so .50 cal HMG's, NV goggles and thermal imagers for the bridge. The cost you have is training your own people on how to use them and that is negligible given the costs the public are paying to have a fleet of warships of Africa, and given the profits some of these shipping lines make, esp the oilers, they can manage it. Paying a training organisation to instruct on their weapons use is a hell of a lot less than the millions these ransoms amount to over time and on insurance risk premiums, and they will make it back on reduced insurance costs.

*edited to include "they can manage it" because I am a idiot and don't think when I type.*
Every ship. Every crew. And because its unreasonable to expect the crew to be trained in combat tactics, you would have to hire someone. If it were profitable to use such measures, companies would already be doing it. Mercs would even get around the rules against armed ships.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Alyeska wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Bollocks. Its not that expensive to buy six or so .50 cal HMG's, NV goggles and thermal imagers for the bridge. The cost you have is training your own people on how to use them and that is negligible given the costs the public are paying to have a fleet of warships of Africa, and given the profits some of these shipping lines make, esp the oilers, they can manage it. Paying a training organisation to instruct on their weapons use is a hell of a lot less than the millions these ransoms amount to over time and on insurance risk premiums, and they will make it back on reduced insurance costs.

*edited to include "they can manage it" because I am a idiot and don't think when I type.*
Every ship. Every crew.
Only ones that are going around the Horn.
And because its unreasonable to expect the crew to be trained in combat tactics, you would have to hire someone.
Why is it unreasonable? they always used to in prior centuries, crewmen were expected to serve guns in both world wars and its not like they are being expected to be in the SAS.
If it were profitable to use such measures, companies would already be doing it.
I know people in the 'PMC' game in NZ who have been approched to do armed security on ordinary commercial merchant vessels for some time now because of this piracy stuff, so at the very least it is being seriously evaluated for cost effectivness.
Mercs would even get around the rules against armed ships.
Lol! what rules? I know of simple civvie cruise yachts unloading .50 Barrets to NZ customs for safekeeping and picking them up again when they leave here, all perfectly legal, letalone whats on some superyachts.. seriously, gimme a break. Only reason mercs havent done it is because no one has put up the dosh or felt the need to.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Alyeska »

Not every country allows armed civilian ships into port at all. Some will disallow the ship from ever entering port if it has weapons. While only ships traveling the horn need protection, any ship can conceivably travel that area.

To put it bluntly, its more cost effective not to fight the terrorists. The ship owners are better off paying the ransom and recouping the money through insurance. An insurance company can offer premiums cheaper then the cost of arming the ships because it offsets itself with spreading the overall cost among everyone who purchases.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Axis Kast »

To put it bluntly, its more cost effective not to fight the terrorists. The ship owners are better off paying the ransom and recouping the money through insurance. An insurance company can offer premiums cheaper then the cost of arming the ships because it offsets itself with spreading the overall cost among everyone who purchases.
Precisely. Piracy affects something like a third of one percent of the 20,000 ships that transit the Red Sea annually. Private security costs can run up to $60,000 per voyage. Far better for the shipping firms to accept the ransoms as the cost of doing business.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Alyeska wrote:Not every country allows armed civilian ships into port at all. Some will disallow the ship from ever entering port if it has weapons.
So you off load them before entering said port.
While only ships traveling the horn need protection, any ship can conceivably travel that area.
?? So if you go via the horn, arm yourself.
To put it bluntly, its more cost effective not to fight the terrorists. The ship owners are better off paying the ransom and recouping the money through insurance. An insurance company can offer premiums cheaper then the cost of arming the ships because it offsets itself with spreading the overall cost among everyone who purchases.
That depends on the price of ransoms and the frequency of attacks, as I said the merchant lines are considering it and people I know have been offered jobs doing this sort of work. Certainly the weapons and sensors are not that expensive.

Of course then there is the cost of government action to deal with it, those warships are not cheap to run, perhaps the question will be asked about why governments are doing this work and the merchant lines are doing nothing?
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Axis Kast wrote:
To put it bluntly, its more cost effective not to fight the terrorists. The ship owners are better off paying the ransom and recouping the money through insurance. An insurance company can offer premiums cheaper then the cost of arming the ships because it offsets itself with spreading the overall cost among everyone who purchases.
Precisely. Piracy affects something like a third of one percent of the 20,000 ships that transit the Red Sea annually. Private security costs can run up to $60,000 per voyage. Far better for the shipping firms to accept the ransoms as the cost of doing business.
Or just have their own crews trained? its not that expensive.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

After all Mike's very right, history Shows us, what really ended piracy in the carribean was and Barbary was the occupation of the "Friendly" ports. Punitive measures against the Carolinas, Port Royale, Tripoli, made the cost for the merchants too high.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Stuart Mackey wrote:]

Bollocks. Its not that expensive to buy six or so .50 cal HMG's, NV goggles and thermal imagers for the bridge. The cost you have is training your own people on how to use them and that is negligible given the costs the public are paying to have a fleet of warships of Africa, and given the profits some of these shipping lines make, esp the oilers, they can manage it. Paying a training organisation to instruct on their weapons use is a hell of a lot less than the millions these ransoms amount to over time and on insurance risk premiums, and they will make it back on reduced insurance costs.

*edited to include "they can manage it" because I am a idiot and don't think when I type.*
No actually insurance costs will skyrocket because of that armament, to the point that some companies just wouldn’t insure the ship at all. The ship would also be banned from using most civilian ports and indeed would be banned from the territorial waters of many nations. The odds of those guns being used negligently or in malice are simply far higher then the odds of any given ship being attacked by pirates and most places don’t let civilians own machine guns in case you forgot. The best solution for arming ships would be what Blackwater already offers, trained guards with only light weapons who come on board only for the run past the horn of Africa, and are then removed. Everything happens in international waters and shipping lanes, and no problems in port. But most companies also just don’t want to be seen using mercenaries.
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Knife »

Stuart Mackey wrote: Bollocks. Its not that expensive to buy six or so .50 cal HMG's, NV goggles and thermal imagers for the bridge. The cost you have is training your own people on how to use them and that is negligible given the costs the public are paying to have a fleet of warships of Africa, and given the profits some of these shipping lines make, esp the oilers, they can manage it. Paying a training organisation to instruct on their weapons use is a hell of a lot less than the millions these ransoms amount to over time and on insurance risk premiums, and they will make it back on reduced insurance costs.

*edited to include "they can manage it" because I am a idiot and don't think when I type.*
You are confusing reality with insurance costs.

Putting a .50 cal machine gun on your ship? couple thousand dollars

training a dupe to man it? couple hundred dollars.

conning an Insurance Company to ensure you? Priceless?



That said, you can train some one to pull a trigger for cheap, to employ someone who know's what the fuck they are dong? Not so cheap.

Guess whom the companies will go for? cheap, guess where they will be from?

the same group of people whom the Pirates draw from?

consider the problems?
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Broomstick »

One problem is that the US would find paying off pirates - even if cost-effective financially - to be morally unacceptable. Any politician proposing it would be committing career suicide.

Of course, as Americans we aren't supposed to have culture or morals and we should kowtow to criminals for fear of offending their "customs" no matter how repugnant. :roll:
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Kelp »

Using the fire suppression system seems acceptable to pirates, shipping companies, sailors, and ports so far. And hiding in the engine compartment seems effective as of the recent hijacking attempts. Maybe the sailors can just lock themselves away in the engine compartment as soon as they spot the pirates, and when the pirates demand them to open the door or they'll knock it down, the sailors can flood the ship with oxygen displacing gas like freon or something.
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Knife
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Re: Somalia Pirates Seize British Cargo Ship

Post by Knife »

Broomstick wrote:One problem is that the US would find paying off pirates - even if cost-effective financially - to be morally unacceptable. Any politician proposing it would be committing career suicide.

Of course, as Americans we aren't supposed to have culture or morals and we should kowtow to criminals for fear of offending their "customs" no matter how repugnant. :roll:
pfft, you are assuming people would care about how these situations end as long as they end...with us on top.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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