The Cyborgs Are Coming: Luke Arm (It's about damned time)

[Broomstick]

I'm damn impressed by the control the guy in the video has, considering he doesn't have the direct nerve-interface they talked about. Looking at it, I realize this is a lab environment, but I wonder how long that battery lasts, and how weather proofed it is, or can be. But even it needs to be kept dry, it should be easier than ever to use an umbrella!

The batteries powering the arm are either the same or similar to the ones used for the current cutting-edge legs. They are somewhat weather resistant, although actual immersion in water is a bad idea as much for damage to the electronics as to the batteries. I believe the leg batteries last about 20 hours or so, so users are recharging one while using another.

[ArmorPierce]

As I suspected, you're just trying to desperately justify your dumb "I won't be really impressed until ..." statement, but now with extra indignant self-righteous attitude! Don't worry, I'm sure no one will see through this act at all. Your secret is safe with me.

umm...

This is fucking awesome. The video was amazing to watch; I can only imagine how the amputees feel about these kinds of breakthroughs.

That was his first post

his next post

I'll start getting really impressed when not only is the interface tied direct to the brain, but the arms provide superior movement and capability compared to their natural counterparts.

Although that's obviously still a ways off, I'm sure we're getting closer.

Maybe not the best choice of words but he did indicate that he was impressed but looks forward to this technology to continue improving.

[Darth Wong]

Why do people think it's OK to say something stupid if they said something reasonable elsewhere?

[Singular Intellect]

Why do people think it's OK to say something stupid if they said something reasonable elsewhere?

Indulge me then; I'll start with the premise I did say something stupid there. Pretend I'm a two year old (or as you might argue, not pretend) and explain what I said that is stupid, because I'm not seeing it.

Unless you're just nitpicking my usage of the term 'really', in which case then don't bother.

[tchizek]

Wow, very cool.

I have known several people with lower arm replacements (i.e., hooks) that would have given almost anything for a hand/arm combo that could do what it looks like that can do!

Very impressive advance, thanks for the link!

[Broomstick]

I suppose that an artificial "skin" would be a good idea for protection of the mechanism from the elements and from dust and grit... but there's no reason it has to look like actual human skin. It could be any color, or clear.

[Ford Prefect]

I suppose that an artificial "skin" would be a good idea for protection of the mechanism from the elements and from dust and grit... but there's no reason it has to look like actual human skin. It could be any color, or clear.

Kanastrous' comment about getting his hypothetical prosthetic kitted out in carbon fibre and anodised metal is actually kind of interesting. While I'm sure that lotso fp eople would want their prosthetics to be as close to human looking as possible, I'm sure that others would undoubtedly be interested in less 'human' looks The appearence of your prosthetic limb could be something of personal expression, which is pretty common in transhumanist science fiction. I must admit that having an arm with more chrome on it than the average Harley Davidson does have something of an appeal.

[Darth Wong]

Why do people think it's OK to say something stupid if they said something reasonable elsewhere?

Indulge me then; I'll start with the premise I did say something stupid there. Pretend I'm a two year old (or as you might argue, not pretend) and explain what I said that is stupid, because I'm not seeing it.

Unless you're just nitpicking my usage of the term 'really', in which case then don't bother.

OK, my little two year old friend, I will explain. You said something that a wanker would say, in which you implied that the goal of prosthetics research should be some kind of Six Million Dollar Man super-human capability project. That is NOT where they are focusing their research, nor should it be. They are focusing their research on increasing the natural life-like nature of the prosthetic, in appearance, in dexterity, and in two-way functionality, including tactile feedback.

The whole idea that they should even be trying to make super-human limbs instead of continuing to improve the dexterity and feedback and natural appearance of the limb is retarded and wanky.

[RedImperator]

I suppose that an artificial "skin" would be a good idea for protection of the mechanism from the elements and from dust and grit... but there's no reason it has to look like actual human skin. It could be any color, or clear.

Maybe something like a polycarbonate shell. Actually, it wouldn't take much to make this arm into a really sexy piece of industrial design (probably an unintended side-effect of modeling it on a human arm). I could totally see people getting them chromed up or powder coated, though I'm sure others would prefer fake skin.

[Mayabird]

Bubble Boy is being a transhumanist dick again? I am shocked! Truly!

But back on the topic of shells and casings and fake skins for the prosthetics, are the exteriors generally permanently on or are they removable? If they're removable for these, it'd be easier to get inside when parts need maintenance or replacement, plus they could have different shells for different circumstances, like a super-waterproofed one for rainy days or bathing, or just accessorizing. Which seems kinda silly, but we're already talking about making them cool looking, and someone would no doubt be interested in matching their arms to what they're wearing that day.

[Singular Intellect]

OK, my little two year old friend, I will explain. You said something that a wanker would say, in which you implied that the goal of prosthetics research should be some kind of Six Million Dollar Man super-human capability project. That is NOT where they are focusing their research, nor should it be. They are focusing their research on increasing the natural life-like nature of the prosthetic, in appearance, in dexterity, and in two-way functionality, including tactile feedback.

The whole idea that they should even be trying to make super-human limbs instead of continuing to improve the dexterity and feedback and natural appearance of the limb is retarded and wanky.

Ah, I see, your clarification makes your objection much more understandable now. You're under the impression I was advocating making amputees with super limbs a goal, rather than simply a side effect of actual design being inevitably superior to that of evolution, along with the bypassing of evolutionary limitations.

I had thought you were suggesting I wasn't impressed with the engineering of the existing technology, which couldn't be further from the truth. I reiterate, I think the accomplishment is fucking amazing and awesome.

However, as an engineer yourself, I'm certain you're well aware that by engineering standards, the human body is very poorly designed, for precisely the reason because it isn't. For example, the height difference between your average person's legs is great enough that they would be considered 'defective' by many engineering standards (didn't I get that example from you? I think I might have.).

I submitted a couple of links to Broomstick demostrating that when presented with the opportunity (especially with the rock climber example), some people will go for artificial limbs that are, at least in some respects, superior to their previous natural counterparts.

Quite frankly, I think that as time goes on, this gap will begin to widen in favour of prosthetics. I don't dispute in the slightest that our goal should be for buildig prosthetics that function as normally as possible for people. But as we approach this goal, I think it's extremely naive to suggest that we will stop at it. It's just not in our nature, and I submitted examples to prove the point.

Anyhow, I will freely admit that I failed to make my position more clear. No one to blame but myself on that account.

[Kanastrous]

I suppose that an artificial "skin" would be a good idea for protection of the mechanism from the elements and from dust and grit... but there's no reason it has to look like actual human skin. It could be any color, or clear.

Kanastrous' comment about getting his hypothetical prosthetic kitted out in carbon fibre and anodised metal is actually kind of interesting. While I'm sure that lotso fp eople would want their prosthetics to be as close to human looking as possible, I'm sure that others would undoubtedly be interested in less 'human' looks The appearence of your prosthetic limb could be something of personal expression, which is pretty common in transhumanist science fiction. I must admit that having an arm with more chrome on it than the average Harley Davidson does have something of an appeal.

While my choice of finishes certainly sounds pleasing to me, I can imagine conditions under which all the same I'd wear a long sleeve or maybe a 'skin sleeve' over it in consideration of others' sensibilities.

Although a skin sleeve alone probably wouldn't cut it; the form and movement of the mechanism inside a skin drape would be more grotesque than the bare machinery. You'd want some kind of (foam? gel?) structure underneath to approximate muscle and fat. Which may or may not be something you could easily apply and remove at will.

What to the materials gurus say?

Regarding retarded and wanky, just in principle are there reasons that you couldn't connect the wearer and the arm's microprocessors to an outsized mechanical instrument? Obviously a man can't wear a ton-and-a-half factory robot arm, but if it's floor-mounted and he's connected and there are limiters in place why couldn't one write software to let the processors learn the man/factory-am interface?

Or, for that matter, what about connecting to microscopic tools (microsurgery tools?) with a suitable interface and 'handling' very tiny objects?

And...is there any reason that the applications are limited to amputees? How difficult would it be for the system to learn to operate a remote waldo, if nerve impulses were to be detected from a whole limb rather than a stump?

/ramble

[Lord of the Abyss]

Regarding retarded and wanky, just in principle are there reasons that you couldn't connect the wearer and the arm's microprocessors to an outsized mechanical instrument? Obviously a man can't wear a ton-and-a-half factory robot arm, but if it's floor-mounted and he's connected and there are limiters in place why couldn't one write software to let the processors learn the man/factory-am interface?

Given that the arm was being controlled remotely at one point in the video I don't see why not.

[Broomstick]

I submitted a couple of links to Broomstick demostrating that when presented with the opportunity (especially with the rock climber example), some people will go for artificial limbs that are, at least in some respects, superior to their previous natural counterparts.

"Superior" only in a very limited application - "running legs" used by athletes are awkward at best for walking, and useless for riding a bike. How well do those "climbing" feet function on flat land? I assume not well, because you only see them when amputees are climbing, not walking on the flat. I don't see a situation where you need multiple sets of limbs and have to swap them out frequently as "superior".

Human limbs are generalists, not specialists. They don't do any one thing in an ideal manner, they do a lot of things in an acceptable manner.

[Edi]

For an idea about the limitations of artificial limbs even when they are of the highly functional variety, did anyone happen to watch the Amazing Race season where one of the teams was a pair of athletes and the woman had one artificial leg from the knee down? She was tough as nails and she had a lot of trouble with that limb whenever it came to something like climbing when she had the flatland walk/run foot on it.

Some limbs may have detachable ends, like she had one that allowed her to ride bikes normally, but Broomstick is absolutely correct about human limbs being general purpose appendages, not highly specialized for just one task.

[Broomstick]

But back on the topic of shells and casings and fake skins for the prosthetics, are the exteriors generally permanently on or are they removable? If they're removable for these, it'd be easier to get inside when parts need maintenance or replacement, plus they could have different shells for different circumstances, like a super-waterproofed one for rainy days or bathing, or just accessorizing. Which seems kinda silly, but we're already talking about making them cool looking, and someone would no doubt be interested in matching their arms to what they're wearing that day.

Don't think anyone definitively answered your question - while some amputees wear "bare" prosthetics, there are manufactured "gloves" that act as coverings. The go over the prosthetic like any glove, or a sock, although they are designed to fit rather tightly so it can take some time to get them on and off. I think they are made from materials like vinyl or silicone or other plastics. While they can be cleaned, eventually they stain, wear out, and the like and need to be replaced. They are probably most common in hand replacements, particularly those that serve more as cosmetic rather than working replacements.

We've actually had coverings for maimed hands that work pretty well for a long time. This segment of the 1923 movie Safety Last is notable not only for Harold Lloyd's free-climbing abilities, but also because the man doing this is missing the thumb and index finger of his right hand due to an accident in 1919. He's wearing a prosthetic glove over his maimed hand which does a pretty good job of it, although if you watch carefully you'll note that his right hand doesn't grip the rope properly in some spots. It's because it can't - the glove is purely for looks and the thumb can't move.

Even in the looks department we've made some notable progress. This is another DARPA funded prosthetic arm, the Proto 1 (yes, they're funding more than one group developing these - this is from Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory) along with the covering glove that goes with it:



If there is an available photo or photos of the amputees original arm the covering can be made to match, including hair if desired.

More from Johns Hopkins - here a "test pilot" is using the new limb.

Note the sensory leads to his left pectoral muscle. In this system, remaining arm nerves are re-routed to the pectoral chest muscle, where sensors pick up signals AND provide sensory feedback - by stimulating these nerves the wearer feels like his arm and hand are being touched rather than a chest muscle, allowing for a more natural way of using the limb. This part of the system, along with the required surgery, was developed at the Chicago Rehabilitation Institute.





These new hands exhibit a degree of fine motor skill that have simply never been possible before in prosthetics.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

Back when I was in Uni part of my course involved a lecture series on prosthetic limbs and general enabling technologies for the disabled. That was only about 4 years ago, but even since then the technology has really come on leaps and bounds.

At that time the ability to control the prosthetic using residual muscles or "stand-in" muscles from other parts of the body was very new, and pretty much all the prosthetics we looked at only had one method of control - nerve reading, muscle control, manual etc... and only did very simple things like "move elbow" or "pinch fingers". I think what is actually most impressive about this device is not just its dexterity, but the fact that it supports so many different types of input - that will be really important in finding enough of a market for this so that it can be mass produced at a reasonable cost.

About the appearance of prosthetics: According to our lecturer, there is actually something of an international divide about this. In Europe, prosthetics that appear more natural and life-like are apparently very much in demand, whereas people in the US seem happy to just go for the bare metal claw type or some other simpler non-natural prosthetic. I didn't think of it at the time, but I wonder now whether that is simply because people in the US have trouble finding insurance to pay for the "fancier" ones.

[Broomstick]

About the appearance of prosthetics: According to our lecturer, there is actually something of an international divide about this. In Europe, prosthetics that appear more natural and life-like are apparently very much in demand, whereas people in the US seem happy to just go for the bare metal claw type or some other simpler non-natural prosthetic. I didn't think of it at the time, but I wonder now whether that is simply because people in the US have trouble finding insurance to pay for the "fancier" ones.

While the cost angle may be a factor, I suspect some of it is really cultural. I don't want to make the next statements too sweeping since "all of Europe" and "all the US" encompass some very diverse regions, but the US seems to be much more accommodating towards the disabled than many regions of Europe. From accessible parking and scooters at shops to licensing requirements for driving (which are too lenient here in many cases) the US has, over the recent decades, been trying to pull handicapped people out of the shadows and into the mainstream. There's no way I'm going to say we've succeeded, the situation is far from perfect, but a social acceptance of the disabled probably takes quite a bit of pressure off the drive for cosmetic appearance and more focus on the mechanics that will actually work.

There is also a significant generational difference. Younger amputees in the US seem much more willing to wear bare metal or plastic than are older ones. The young men in my area coming back from the Middle East with missing limbs seem to have no problem walking around on metal legs for all the world to see. I've also seen artificial limbs with clearly custom paint jobs. There was the double arm amputee who I used to see riding my commuter train who wore bare hooks and no one seemed to mind or care. Actually, her dexterity with them was pretty damn amazing.

[Solauren]

While this is great, it's not surprising given the recent advances of robotics in general.

For example, the Exo-skeletal suit that was mentioned is now for rent/sale. That's an advanced form of limb replacement/augmentation in of itself. Jus a much more complicated one. (I can't imagine getting those things to balance would be easy).

However, compared to an exo-skeletal suit, this is much, much more 'down home' and user-friendly.

After all, no one wants to have to wear a 2 ton suit just to pick up a glass of water.

[Broomstick]

I was wondering today how adaptable this technology would be to replacing not an entire hand but rather just a single finger - a thumb, for example. Loss of a thumb really impacts the utility of a human hand and there's not a lot out there to be used as substitute. In fact, the best "prosthetic" we have for a missing thumb is a transplanted toe. Unfortunately, not everyone is a suitable candidate for a toe transplant for various reasons.

[Chris OFarrell]

This is astonishing engineering work.

I mean just thinking of the kind of programming you'd need to get that kind of fine control, it makes my head hurt.

They've got it down to a weight that feels 'normal', and they have shown a solid, modular design.

Really, really amazing stuff.

[Kanastrous]

Can something like this be utilized in any kind of meaningful argument about the superiority of scientific methods over faith?

As in, clergy and theologians talk about healing of the halt and lame, while engineers and physiologists can actually do it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Can something like this be utilized in any kind of meaningful argument about the superiority of scientific methods over faith?

As in, clergy and theologians talk about healing of the halt and lame, while engineers and physiologists can actually do it.

They aren't healing the lame, they're inventing a different way for them to cope and adapt. Fatih-based coping is decidedly less tangible, I'll give you that.