"Highly engineered explosive" found in WTC rubble...

[CaptainChewbacca]

That guy also claimed Pentagon was hit by a missile and apparently those hundreds of witnesses who saw the flight 77 crashing were unreliable because their judgment was influenced by the events at WTC (basically if the planes crashed into WTC what else could have hit the Pentagon even if it was not plane) and the Boing 757 debris on the Pentagon`s lawn was planted there by government agents which used the few minutes of chaos following the crash to do that undetected. As another "evidence" that there was missile he pointed there is only few foggy videos showing the crash Although I have to admit it`s rather strange that Pentagon which should have had hundreds of cameras monitoring every possible angle has so crappy video surveillance system.

Most military installations don't monitor the skies with cameras, because there's really just too much sky. Let's be honest, the only reason you'd want a camera instead of a radar suite (which I think they have) is to take pictures of what's coming that you can show to someone later. Getting a visual ID on whatever's coming your way in the air is NEVER a priority. You need speed, attitude, size, and trajectory. The Pentagon has THOUSANDS of cameras pointed at the grounds and streets, because that's where all of the major concerns are. And several of those cameras captured images of a plane in their periphery, but they weren't built to film objects moving at hundreds of miles per hour from up-close, so the image quality is very poor.

[Isolder74]

The irony of the cameras at the Pentagon is that if they did produce what the Truthers demand, that would be proof that there is a conspiracy. Think about it if they showed us a clear film of a plane flying into the field of vision of a security camera at the Pentagon then the only way to get it is to use special effects to add it to the video!

[General Zod]

Most military installations don't monitor the skies with cameras, because there's really just too much sky. Let's be honest, the only reason you'd want a camera instead of a radar suite (which I think they have) is to take pictures of what's coming that you can show to someone later. Getting a visual ID on whatever's coming your way in the air is NEVER a priority. You need speed, attitude, size, and trajectory. The Pentagon has THOUSANDS of cameras pointed at the grounds and streets, because that's where all of the major concerns are. And several of those cameras captured images of a plane in their periphery, but they weren't built to film objects moving at hundreds of miles per hour from up-close, so the image quality is very poor.

The air space around the Pentagon was already a no-fly zone anyway, so the idea that they should be paying attention to the sky with cameras is patently absurd.

[Sky Captain]

Is`t there also some cameras on the roof of the Pentagon to give security personal view of a whole area which could have captured the plane from above when it made it`s low altitude attack run. At least this is what that guy demanded - where is the footage from the rooftop cameras. He also claim the plane should have bursted in flames at the moment it`s wings hit the lamp poles on a highway overpass because these poles should have ruptured the fuel tanks (accordingly to the conspiracy these poles were specially rigged to fall to make impression it was plane that knocked them down )

Also is there a possibility that there is some grain of truth behind some those conspiracies for example US government withholding some important information about the events of 9/11 because revealing it would show just how negligent the US secret services were.

[Isolder74]

The resolution of those pictures would still be terrible.

If you believe conspiracists airplanes are made of tissue paper. cars pop the poles off there bases when they hit why can't a plane?

[PeZook]

Even if cameras showed a plane (many did, in fact), they'd nitpick the pictures to death and claim they've been faked. At this point, adding another multi-thousand group to the conspiracy is irrelevant, as long as the claim is defended.

Witnesses are paid government shills (unless they support the conspiracy theory), pictures are faked, NIST reports are full of lies, debunkers are paid agents, astronauts are suspended on wires and the US conducted a secret war against Nazi flying saucers in antarctica.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Is`t there also some cameras on the roof of the Pentagon to give security personal view of a whole area which could have captured the plane from above when it made it`s low altitude attack run. At least this is what that guy demanded - where is the footage from the rooftop cameras. He also claim the plane should have bursted in flames at the moment it`s wings hit the lamp poles on a highway overpass because these poles should have ruptured the fuel tanks (accordingly to the conspiracy these poles were specially rigged to fall to make impression it was plane that knocked them down )

The cameras were pointed downward, set to record objects at normal speed. A plane banking, diving, and coming in at hundreds of miles per hour would be barely visible on such a camera, and whatever you did catch would be a silver blur.

Also is there a possibility that there is some grain of truth behind some those conspiracies for example US government withholding some important information about the events of 9/11 because revealing it would show just how negligent the US secret services were.

I believe SOME camera footage from the Pentagon HAS been witheld, because we don't want people to know where certain cameras are stationed on the grounds.

[Darth Onasi]

Not to derail this, (it seems like everyone is on the same page already with condemning the idiocy of the article) but what exactly IS the conspiracy that is supposed to exist? I've read people talking about it here a few times, and I've heard ridiculous things like "None of the Jews went to work in the Towers that day.", but I have never heard (or actually cared enough honestly to find out) what exactly the conspiracy is.

The "No Jews went to the WTC on 9/11" one is specifically related to a conspiracy theory involving Israel trying to conquer the arab world. Hence, Mossad tipped off all Jewish U.S. citizens to stay away. America will destroy all arabs, and Israel will take over. MUAHAHAHA!
All according to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion no doubt.

[Darth Wong]

Not to derail this, (it seems like everyone is on the same page already with condemning the idiocy of the article) but what exactly IS the conspiracy that is supposed to exist? I've read people talking about it here a few times, and I've heard ridiculous things like "None of the Jews went to work in the Towers that day.", but I have never heard (or actually cared enough honestly to find out) what exactly the conspiracy is.

The "No Jews went to the WTC on 9/11" one is specifically related to a conspiracy theory involving Israel trying to conquer the arab world. Hence, Mossad tipped off all Jewish U.S. citizens to stay away. America will destroy all arabs, and Israel will take over. MUAHAHAHA!
All according to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion no doubt.

The convenient thing about 9/11 is that you can attach it to any hobby-horse you want. If you're an anti-Semitic right-wing nutjob akin to Mel Gibson, you can say it was the Jews. If you're a hardcore left-wing nutjob, you can say it was the George W. Bush trying to concoct an excuse for invading Iraq. If you're one of those idiots who believes everything is controlled by a shadowy global organization and has been for centuries, you don't even need to bother providing a motive: the whole point of that crowd is to hyperventilate over the shadowy nature of the forces controlling events around us, and the fact that we can't even begin to understand what they want or why.

[Sky Captain]

Is`t there also some cameras on the roof of the Pentagon to give security personal view of a whole area which could have captured the plane from above when it made it`s low altitude attack run. At least this is what that guy demanded - where is the footage from the rooftop cameras. He also claim the plane should have bursted in flames at the moment it`s wings hit the lamp poles on a highway overpass because these poles should have ruptured the fuel tanks (accordingly to the conspiracy these poles were specially rigged to fall to make impression it was plane that knocked them down )

The cameras were pointed downward, set to record objects at normal speed. A plane banking, diving, and coming in at hundreds of miles per hour would be barely visible on such a camera, and whatever you did catch would be a silver blur.

Also is there a possibility that there is some grain of truth behind some those conspiracies for example US government withholding some important information about the events of 9/11 because revealing it would show just how negligent the US secret services were.

I believe SOME camera footage from the Pentagon HAS been witheld, because we don't want people to know where certain cameras are stationed on the grounds.

Of course conspiracy theorists will never understand that, all they will do is say there is hundreds of cameras at the pentagon so there must be at least few dozens of cameras that captured the plane in a crystal clear image. Obviously if there was a government conspiracy then compared to all the difficulties in fabricating such a grand plot making a fake video showing plane hitting Pentagon that looks totally real would be trivial.

What I find funny is some conspiracy sites are debunking those no plane crashed in Pentagon claims while supporting WTC controlled demolition claims and claiming the planes were flown by remote control.

[Rogue 9]

Of course conspiracy theorists will never understand that, all they will do is say there is hundreds of cameras at the pentagon so there must be at least few dozens of cameras that captured the plane in a crystal clear image. Obviously if there was a government conspiracy then compared to all the difficulties in fabricating such a grand plot making a fake video showing plane hitting Pentagon that looks totally real would be trivial.

Of course it would be. I have all the necessary software to do it on my computer right now. But of course, the perfect conspiracy that never lets anything slip let that slip. Oh wait...

[General Trelane (Retired)]

What I find funny is some conspiracy sites are debunking those no plane crashed in Pentagon claims while supporting WTC controlled demolition claims and claiming the planes were flown by remote control.

They think that by showing objectivity in one case, then people will more readily assume that they are always objective. An even funnier example of this are the guys that think the faked-moon-landing claim is actually part of a bigger conspiracy by NASA to direct attention away from the real cover up. . .which is that they really found something ancient and extraordinaty on the Moon.

[Darth Wong]

What I find funny is some conspiracy sites are debunking those no plane crashed in Pentagon claims while supporting WTC controlled demolition claims and claiming the planes were flown by remote control.

They think that by showing objectivity in one case, then people will more readily assume that they are always objective.

Like creationists who deny young-earth creationism and try to act as if this makes them reasonable, or ID advocates who deny any motivation from theology.

[Darth Onasi]

The tin-foil hats are pretty much identical to creationists in their methodology. Claiming to be objective, cherry-picking evidence, accusing "the establishment" of either holding back evidence or being too rigid and overuse of the silver-bullet argument where even the slightest unknown factor (such as what exactly brought United 93 down) is overblown to epic proportions.
Yes I'm aware how United 93 most likely crashed, but there are people who seriously say it was all staged to provide a "heroic American story" for the public. Yeah.

Of course both creationism and tin-foil hats stem from reaching a conclusion then trying to hammer the evidence in to fit it. Not surprising really.

[Pulp Hero]

Here is what I don't understand.

People want to believe in a conspiracy, fine, whatever- let's assume that the U.S government wanted to destroy the towers and attack the Pentagon.

Isn't easier to assume that the hijackers were in fact, CIA agents or were legitimate terrorists that had been supplied and manipulated to unknowingly do the CIA's bidding?

The theory is just as unprovable, and it results in the same effect (invading Iraq, creating a NWO, etc.) except that it doesn't leave glaring inconsistencies, doesn't require massive numbers of people to be hushed up, and the CIA has done shady shit before.

[Artemas]

How much conventional explosives would be required to bring down one of the towers? Thermite was covered, but just how ridiculously large an amount of high explosive stuff would one need?

[Isolder74]

tons. I do not have exact figures.

[General Zod]

Here is what I don't understand.

People want to believe in a conspiracy, fine, whatever- let's assume that the U.S government wanted to destroy the towers and attack the Pentagon.

Isn't easier to assume that the hijackers were in fact, CIA agents or were legitimate terrorists that had been supplied and manipulated to unknowingly do the CIA's bidding?

The theory is just as unprovable, and it results in the same effect (invading Iraq, creating a NWO, etc.) except that it doesn't leave glaring inconsistencies, doesn't require massive numbers of people to be hushed up, and the CIA has done shady shit before.

In their mind it's too simple of an explanation. It's so blindiingly obvious, that it clearly must be a clever ruse to midirect people from the truth (whatever that is), and they're smarter than everyone else because they "figured it out" and weren't fooled by the propaganda. I suspect at the heart of it it's overcompensation for a massive inferiority complex. [/armchair psychologist]

[Darth Onasi]

In the end, tin-foil hats come in many varieties. There are those who do believe the planes were piloted by CIA agents, or patsy terrorists.
There are those who take the minor truth that Osama Bin Laden was among those guerilla fighters in Afghanistan trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets (well at least I think that's true) and conclude that Osama himself is a CIA agent.

Whichever way you look, there's a conspiracy theorist for every possible variable.

[Isolder74]

penn and teller

What this lady says at the start of this video is very insightful in the how the thinking on conspiracies work.

[Sea Skimmer]

There are those who take the minor truth that Osama Bin Laden was among those guerilla fighters in Afghanistan trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets (well at least I think that's true) and conclude that Osama himself is a CIA agent.

Bin Laden never fought the Soviets himself and was never trained by the CIA. The CIA trained very few people, that was Pakistan's job. He was a money handler, one who passed on money to the people who did fight, and had a couple rungs of other people in-between him and the CIA guys handing out the cash.

Whichever way you look, there's a conspiracy theorist for every possible variable.

Sure are. More then one even. Some people just have a pathological need to deny reality. The people I’ve met in person who actually believe these theories also tend to believe a lot of other dumb shit. I met someone just recently who not only bought into the whole ‘new world order’ conspiracy… without even being able to repeated most of the details but also fucking thought heroin was actually okay for you.

[Darth Onasi]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. So basically Osama's background is yet another thing that tin-foil hats are just making up to suit their theories.

[Isolder74]

I made the 'error' of posting on a youtube video the real fall times for the two towers and just got told i don't know how to count!

For the love of Pete I am a Electronics Engineer who has taken a full year's worth of Calculus!

[Isolder74]

Ghetto Edit: That's it!!!!! I am not waiting to 9/11 to make my new fire truck cake. As soon as I have a chance I am making it and it will be my best effort possible. I'm not cutting any corners this time!

[Sea Skimmer]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. So basically Osama's background is yet another thing that tin-foil hats are just making up to suit their theories.

Well actually Osama himself has done a lot of the inflation, in particular with regard to claiming to have fought the Soviets, but we have ample evidence that he did no such thing. In reality as a money handler he helped do far more damage then his own hands ever could have, but you don’t rally a personal army of Jihadist minions by saying so. So its kind of obvious why he’d want to lie about it.

The stuff claiming his CIA involvement largely stems from people just being very stupid and simplistic in reading about what actually occurred. The same people typically think the US was directly arming the Taliban too, when it didn’t even exist at the time. The tin-foil hat crowd simply has no interest in determining the truth of anything, so they accept such ridiculously distorted history without question and feed it into the insanity.