Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by Thanas »

MKSheppard wrote:
Thanas wrote:The americans were particularly famous for handing out chocolate and cigarettes.
Fun fact; but a study done by the U.S. Army showed that thefts went down at military depots around Germany when signs in German saying "US MILITARY INSTALLATION/PROPERTY OF US GOVERNMENT/DO NOT STEAL" were put up in stead of live guards?

Reason? The live guards went "aw, you poor thing, here go inside, take a few C rations, and perhaps some chocolate bars"; and looked the other way.

Or they handed out more than the usual rations. I know that my grandmother, who was employed as a translator by the Americans usual received an extra gift of ~150 cigarettes each day because the guys in charge knew she had lost her whole family to american bombs and was recently married.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Or as Susan Brownmiller wrote: The Russians Raped everybody took everything that wasn't nailed down and burned the rest. The Americans traded choclate and food for sex.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Thanas wrote:Actually, the Maroccane troops got an incredibly bad reputation for them committing atrocities on a large scale. For example, in some parts of Italy, to be maroccained was a synonym for getting raped for several decades.

There are also very horrifying diaries to be read in the cities under french control in Germany who were garrisoned by maroccane troops. A historian made a huge study about the things they did and although it is written in a neutral tone and quite fairly written, I literally couldn't bring myself to finish it due to the disgusting things in them.

So no, for once I do not blame the allies for not wanting them running around in Paris.
The article specifically states:
When it became clear that there were not enough white soldiers to fill the gaps, soldiers from parts of North Africa and the Middle East were used instead.
The units that were removed were Tirailleurs Senegalais - ie units from French colonies in West or Central Africa, not units from North Africa (Morrocans).
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Jade Falcon wrote: Are they, just never heard anyone call it that before.
Language differences. Nobody calls it "Battle Of Britain" around here, I just didn't notice what I wrote...
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by Akkleptos »

There's that anecdote of the Russian -recently drafted from the countryside- soldier who took the lightbulbs he found in Germany to take back home to his farm, where they had no electricity.

Also, it's been pointed out that the general European attitude towards black people was different from that of the Americans. In doing so, it might be interesting to recall the fact that the USA was amongst the last countries in the civilised world to abolish race-based slavery. Even compared to its neighbours (Canada, Act Against Slavery -a pioneering law- from 1793, then the Slavery Abolition Act from 1833 by which the British Empire abolished slavery in most of its territory; and Mexico, where slavery was abolished first in 1810 -start of the Independence War, though there had been no significant slave trade since 1739- , and formally in 1829 with President Vicente Guerrero -which didn't make most Texans any happier), the US doesn't come out looking good. This of course means that the US was way off the Western mainstream when it came to race-based slavery (since it assigned African blacks a pretty much automatic slave status), which makes them a Western rara avis, a country with it's own, sui generis outlook regarding races and rights. It's something to consider when comparing the views of the French or the British to the views of the Americans, during that particular moment near the end of the Second World War.

BTW, in this interesting Abolition of slavery timeline, it's quite interesting to see which countries come after the US in abolishing slavery.

The French can read about L'histoire oubliée des Tirailleurs sénégalais de la Seconde Guerre mondiale themselves here. The researcher at some point laments the fact that these brave men have been all but forgot.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:Or as Susan Brownmiller wrote: The Russians Raped everybody took everything that wasn't nailed down and burned the rest. The Americans traded choclate and food for sex.
Aren't the whole Rampagin Russian Rapists stories myth? I've heard that the Soviet statistics concerning rape were in line with other nations after Stalin's order to shoot any soldier that is found guilty of rape.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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There remains a lot of debate about it. The Red Army certainly cracked down on behavior like rape and looting, but often only when it was threatening unit discipline. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that when Soviet units encamped (as opposed to passed through), large scale rape often occurred; but given that this was often in the immediate combat zone, there was no-one to report it to and yet more anecdotal evidence would suggest it wasn't considered a problem unless it affected discipline, even ballpark figures are impossible to come by.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Also note the name of the historian I cited.

She's not exactly an unbiased source.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Isolder74 wrote:Battle of Britain. Otherwise known as The Blitz. You are nit picking.

The names are interchangeable.
*Late Edit*

I misinterpreted what you said, though I don't know if you could call the Blitz and the Battle of Britain the same. The Blitz started during the Battle of Britain true enough but continued after Operation Sealion was ditched.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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thejester wrote:There remains a lot of debate about it. The Red Army certainly cracked down on behavior like rape and looting, but often only when it was threatening unit discipline. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that when Soviet units encamped (as opposed to passed through), large scale rape often occurred; but given that this was often in the immediate combat zone, there was no-one to report it to and yet more anecdotal evidence would suggest it wasn't considered a problem unless it affected discipline, even ballpark figures are impossible to come by.
But isn't the keyword there "anecdotal"? Most of which likely coming from decidedly biased sources? Frankly, a lot of the "Russians raped everything in sight" claims sound like over-exaggerated "evil commie" propaganda.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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PeZook wrote:
Jade Falcon wrote: Are they, just never heard anyone call it that before.
Language differences. Nobody calls it "Battle Of Britain" around here, I just didn't notice what I wrote...
Ah, no worries. :)

Regarding the French colonial troops, how has this film been received, it goes under the title "Days of Glory" in the UK and seems to be concerned with French colonial troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Glory_(2006_film)
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Ilya Muromets wrote:
thejester wrote:There remains a lot of debate about it. The Red Army certainly cracked down on behavior like rape and looting, but often only when it was threatening unit discipline. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that when Soviet units encamped (as opposed to passed through), large scale rape often occurred; but given that this was often in the immediate combat zone, there was no-one to report it to and yet more anecdotal evidence would suggest it wasn't considered a problem unless it affected discipline, even ballpark figures are impossible to come by.
But isn't the keyword there "anecdotal"? Most of which likely coming from decidedly biased sources? Frankly, a lot of the "Russians raped everything in sight" claims sound like over-exaggerated "evil commie" propaganda.
I really doubt a lot of the diaries is anecdotal evidence.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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TheKwas wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:Or as Susan Brownmiller wrote: The Russians Raped everybody took everything that wasn't nailed down and burned the rest. The Americans traded choclate and food for sex.
Aren't the whole Rampagin Russian Rapists stories myth? I've heard that the Soviet statistics concerning rape were in line with other nations after Stalin's order to shoot any soldier that is found guilty of rape.
Soviet statistics are just as bullshit as American propaganda that American soldiers never committed any war crimes in WWII. The truth undoubtedly lies somewhere between RUSSIANS RAPED EVERYTHING THAT MOVED! and RUSSIANS SHOT ANY SOLDIER WHO RAPED! Whether than number is 100,000 rapes, or 2,000,000+ rapes, I don't know, it depends on your methodology.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Jade Falcon wrote:Ah, no worries. :)

Regarding the French colonial troops, how has this film been received, it goes under the title "Days of Glory" in the UK and seems to be concerned with French colonial troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Glory_(2006_film)

I saw it. It is a good movie that doesn't gloss over much of what happened. And it has no character shields, which is good.

Plus, it actually shows semi-competent german soldiers clearing houses.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Ilya Muromets wrote:But isn't the keyword there "anecdotal"? Most of which likely coming from decidedly biased sources? Frankly, a lot of the "Russians raped everything in sight" claims sound like over-exaggerated "evil commie" propaganda.
They're 'anecdotal' in the sense that they're stories - not that they are inherently unreliable. Given the huge number of civilian deaths during and after the conquest of the Reich and the total absence of any sort of statistical measure of rapes reported or even something like abortions performed, it's impossible to get an idea of just how widespread rape was and to what extent it was tolerated by the RKKA.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Soviet statistics are just as bullshit as American propaganda that American soldiers never committed any war crimes in WWII.
To be fair, American forces commited maybe like 0,01% of war crimes compared to their Japanese and German counterparts. In statistics, we generally call such numbers "vanishingly small".
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Stas Bush wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Soviet statistics are just as bullshit as American propaganda that American soldiers never committed any war crimes in WWII.
To be fair, American forces commited maybe like 0,01% of war crimes compared to their Japanese and German counterparts. In statistics, we generally call such numbers "vanishingly small".
Rape and other crimes by Allied troops during the war and occupation of Germany and Japan are frighteningly under-reported, however, which is what I was referring to. While we all know that rapes and other crimes occurred, I couldn't even begin to put a number on it, whereas we can do so with Russian crimes in Germany.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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We can't put any numbers on rape in any occupation sector (American, French, British or Russian) because the civil administration simply collapsed. Sure, there are estimates, but for the most part they're like shooting into the blue. I don't know why you think we could be calculating the scale of rapes in Soviet occupied territories, neither me nor thejester are of the opinion that we could, there's simply no reliable data on anything.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Stas Bush wrote:We can't put any numbers on rape in any occupation sector (American, French, British or Russian) because the civil administration simply collapsed. Sure, there are estimates, but for the most part they're like shooting into the blue. I don't know why you think we could be calculating the scale of rapes in Soviet occupied territories, neither me nor thejester are of the opinion that we could, there's simply no reliable data on anything.
We're way off on a tangent here, but my only point was the TheKwas' post saying that "Rampagin Russian Rapists" are a myth, based on Soviet statistics, is incorrect. Russians did commit rape on a wide scale - the only question is how wide. And as far as calculating the scale, a number of historians have made efforts to do exactly that. The problem is the methodology they select results in radically different numbers, to the point where you end up with two extremes. Either a) The Soviets were all virtuous communists who brought the light of socialism to former fascists or b) Soviets raped their way across eastern Europe, leaving no female of any species untouched.

Since both of those extremes are ridiculous and the evidence suggests a number in between them, that's all I was trying to say.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeah, that's basically true. As for "Soviet statistics", if anyone would have had any sort of internal document which would be specifying the actual scale of rape and misconduct, that would be long published. But the problem's there none. There are no Soviet statistics regarding misconduct other than the number of executed for misconduct, which is basically more or less irrelevant for the issue. Same for US and France, there are no statistical reports by the respective militaries detailing the precise scale of rape and misconduct, none that I know of anyway.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by TheKwas »

As a clarification, I meant 'soviet statistics' as in statistics concerning the soviets, not statistics conducted by the soviets.

Of course, I really have no understanding of what exactly occured or what the state of knowledge is in academia. It makes sense that we have no real clue what the figures are, but I displayed immediate skepticism because I distinctly remember some pretty outrageous figures put forth by some posters on other boards. One was actually just taking an unnamed doctor's estimate of violent rape victims in a Berlin hospital and expanding it to the entire population occupied.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

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Jade Falcon wrote:
PeZook wrote:
Jade Falcon wrote: Are they, just never heard anyone call it that before.
Language differences. Nobody calls it "Battle Of Britain" around here, I just didn't notice what I wrote...
Ah, no worries. :)

Regarding the French colonial troops, how has this film been received, it goes under the title "Days of Glory" in the UK and seems to be concerned with French colonial troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Glory_(2006_film)
First time I hear about it but thanks for putting it on my radar. I'll definatly going to check it out.
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Re: Fact of the day: only whites contributed to Nazi defeat

Post by Big Orange »

PeZook wrote:
Big Orange wrote:The Russians pulled off something similarily pathetic around the same time when they marched into Warsaw, with Soviet soldiers dressed up in Polish military uniforms, trying to pass off as Polish!
Yeah, I guess there were no Poles in the 1st Army of the People's Polish Armed Forces units that marched into Warsaw (and even held a parade in 19.01.1945), right? :D

The Russians pulled some nasty propaganda shit in their time, but this wasn't one of them. Stop repeating myths, please.
I don't disprove that Polish soldiers were not absent and they served in Soviet auxiliary units or alongside the Soviets, but at the same time non-Poles posing in Polish uniforms supposedly did occur according to Laurence Rees in World War Two: Behind Closed Doors - Stalin, the Nazis and the West, a book made into a documentary series on BBC 2 (where it was mentioned by surviving witnessess), although it is only one source and we are digressing here.
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