Fundies Push for Inclusion of God in EU Constitution

Post by **Edi** » 2003-02-07 02:56am

Wasn't such a great start for my day to open up the newspaper and have a huge article splashed at me where it was explained at length how certain conservative factions of the EU Parliament, along with support of Poland and urging from the Pope are demanding that if an EU Constitution is drafted, it must mention God (as in the Christian God) as the source of all freedom, justice and mercy (the three qualities decidedly lacking in the Bible). This made me ANGRY! We have an election coming up in March, and I will damned well make sure that the candidate I vote for will uphold separation of church and state instead of trying to force myths down my throat. If that shit goes through, next they will demand more, pointing out that "it's already in the Constitution, therefore our position has support", and soon enough we'll have less and less freedom.

Now, it must be said that while I think the French president, Chirac, in most respects a cretin, at least in this he has my full approval, because he essentially told the advocates of this lunacy to piss off. Giscard d'Estaing, the former French prez who heads the convent that is drafting the EU Constitution, also rejected the demand. At least there are still some influential voices of reason around to oppose religious tyrants.

Edi

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-07 03:47am

A theocratic European Union???

I bet you could expect new repeats of the Crusades if that happened. Perhaps not really, but their citizens would certainly be affected by this.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2003-02-07 03:55am

[rant mode]As far as I'm concerned, Polish fundies may go fuck themselves. I live in a country where I'm shunned by most adults when I admit to being atheist, and who are enraged when I insult them back after they claim I must be an immoral satanistic sexual pervert. The church has a lot of power here, and the media are afraid to say anything that can enrage it. It's almost a mafia-like organization, only promoting ignorance and fundamentalism instead of gambling, prostitution and drugs. You should've read some articles about the EU in their pet newspaper. They make speeches made by Falwell seem moderate - there are even remarks about those godless Westerners taking our national sovereignity away from us, by virtue of "making" Poland join the EU...

This country is full of total idiots working on homo-sovieticus mode. Our politicians are spouting out hundreds of ill-prepared laws and regulations, strangling our economy and promoting tax malversations. When I talk with other people, I start to think they don't understand free-market economy AT ALL. Maybe that's because I'm majoring in economics/management, but I get REALLY pissed when people want the government to take care of them and take responsibility of every dumb thing they do. You're a farmer, and you can't sell your products? No problem, you can bully the politicians to buy them from you by blocking the roads. You're a miner, and your mine is being closed, because it can't bring profit? Just force the government to keep it running by throwing "modified" firecrackers at the parliament building (those idiots were taping bearing balls onto large firecrackers, and throwing them at people during their demonstrations).

I'm really getting tired of living in this country. [/rant mode]

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-07 08:08am

Fundie fuckers MUST DIE!

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2003-02-07 09:27am

It would be better for the EU to be a completely secular state with no official sanctioning of any religion - so long as the religious liberty of the people is not compromised, of course.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-02-07 10:54am

hmm... could you post a link? i just tried to find it but was unable to.

i personally fully disagree with taking up god in an eu constitution.

at least my countrie´s offiocial oppinion is similar to francd´s oppinion.

MAHOK!

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-07 11:17am

Shut up all your bigoted Christian haters!!!!!!! Stop violating my right to freedom of religion!!!!
</Christian class="whiny">

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-02-07 12:06pm

Durandal wrote:Shut up all your bigoted Christian haters!!!!!!! Stop violating my right to freedom of religion!!!!
</Christian class="whiny">

Yeah! If the voice of God in my head tells me to sacrifice my son for His glory, you've no right to stop me!!!

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-07 12:15pm

Unless I'm mistaken, the American Declaration of Independence says God is the source of all mankind's freedoms'. Our creator endowed us with certain inalienable rights. So how far fetched is it for the EU to follow in the path of a documents that many consider to be a vital document in the creation of the United States. The Founding fathers, on the most part, were what we would call fundies and I think they did a pretty good job of making this nation what it is today.

Just something to make people stop and think for a moment. Not that I agree with it, but if the majority is Christian in the EU and it purports to be a democracy...well...majority rules no?

On the other side, as much as the Founders were Semi-fundies, they knew enough to institute a separation of church and state BECAUSE of their experiences with European christianity and religion. Many Americans came here fleeing religious persecution at home, Europeans being the persecutors don't have alot of experience with this, thus separation of church and state does not seem to be as important for them as it is for us. I happen to think that its VITAL if a nation is to be truly free...but thats just my two cents.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-02-07 12:17pm

I'm glad the majority of the EU is pushing for a secular constitution, and a more secular Europe. My only concern is the rising population of Muslim fundies. What happens if they start to come into power a few decades down the road?

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2003-02-07 12:38pm

Stravo wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, the American Declaration of Independence says God is the source of all mankind's freedoms'. Our creator endowed us with certain inalienable rights. So how far fetched is it for the EU to follow in the path of a documents that many consider to be a vital document in the creation of the United States. The Founding fathers, on the most part, were what we would call fundies and I think they did a pretty good job of making this nation what it is today.

Jefferson was referring to "Nature's God", as he was a Deist. For the most part, the Founding Fathers shared similar religious beliefs to Jefferson. If you'd like, there are several sites out there with quotes from them relating to religion.

Just something to make people stop and think for a moment. Not that I agree with it, but if the majority is Christian in the EU and it purports to be a democracy...well...majority rules no?

Sure, if they manage to make it constitutional, but then I'm not an expert on such things. Seems to me though, that in the US, several efforts to introduce legislation propping up one religion or another has failed on the grounds of the 1st amendment.

On the other side, as much as the Founders were Semi-fundies, they knew enough to institute a separation of church and state BECAUSE of their experiences with European christianity and religion. Many Americans came here fleeing religious persecution at home, Europeans being the persecutors don't have alot of experience with this, thus separation of church and state does not seem to be as important for them as it is for us. I happen to think that its VITAL if a nation is to be truly free...but thats just my two cents.

Apart from the Founders being "Semi-fundies", I pretty much agree with this paragraph.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-02-07 12:46pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I'm glad the majority of the EU is pushing for a secular constitution, and a more secular Europe. My only concern is the rising population of Muslim fundies. What happens if they start to come into power a few decades down the road?

They'll be counterbalanced by the eastern Europe Orthodox(es) and Catholics that have been migrating to most of Europe, specially my country.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-07 12:51pm

Thanks for the clarrification CroMag. I always assumed that when they spoke about God, it being the 18th Century and all that they were simply like the Puritans in tyheir beliefs about God and Relgion.

Considering the documenst they crafted however I should have known better. Fundies just aren't that interested in other people's freedoms.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-07 01:05pm

The United States isn't a democracy; it's more of a democracy/republic hybrid. Thus, the nation, contrary to popular misconception, is not one of "mob rule." The majority can't have something if it infringes on people's rights, period. Thus, the separation of church and state.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-07 01:12pm

Durandal wrote:The United States isn't a democracy; it's more of a democracy/republic hybrid. Thus, the nation, contrary to popular misconception, is not one of "mob rule." The majority can't have something if it infringes on people's rights, period. Thus, the separation of church and state.

Yes, but if the issue itself is separation of church and state, and if you are a democracy then it should be majority rules. There is no right to a separation of church and state in the EU, that's what's being debated now, so a majority CAN enforce this decision if it comes to that.

Hendrake · Post by **Hendrake** » 2003-02-07 02:37pm

Damn fudies. And you wouldn't believe the crap in Italian newspapers and TV News about it.
Damn.

I need to find somewhere else to live.

ArthurDent · Post by **ArthurDent** » 2003-02-07 02:37pm

How can you have true freedom if a specific religion is specified in a constitution or other legal charter?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-07 02:40pm

ArthurDent wrote:How can you have true freedom if a specific religion is specified in a constitution or other legal charter?

You can't. They just don't care.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-02-07 02:46pm

It should be noted that practially all EU countries are republics or constitutonal monarchies (pretty much the same thing in execution these days), not true democracies, so what Durandal said applies for them individually and the EU collectively. Separation of church and state is vital.

Edi

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » 2003-02-07 03:00pm

OK lets clear a few things up....

First of all the term "Separation of church and state" is not a part of any US Document. So many cling to this statement as their basis of argument, when in fact it is not even a factor.

This entire discussion about the US is based off of the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

See the statement of "Separation of church and state" is a loose Generalization of that amendment... The first part of this amendment is generally the support advocates of this separation. But most choose to ignore the second part, and all of them distort its purpose.

First of all THis amendment declares that the state is to show no predjudice or favor to any religious belief. This amendment has been cited to remove the act of prayer in public schools. Now I can understand, there are those that would take offense (those of non-christian ideology) if forced to pray as part of a daily school routine. Ok but what about those that feel that prayer is an intregral part of Daily routine? Isn't that prohibiting free excersize there-of? Considering that School time is regulated and structured, by not providing time to freely excersize a religious act that is as equally a violation of the first amendment as forcing prayer.

This amendment is not meant to protect the state from religion. It is meant to protect religion from the state.

If you can consider that aethism is a religion, as a "collection of beliefs", by allowing my religious beliefs as a christian to be supressed in a public forum to respect the beliefs of another group of beliefs. Well then How is this constitutional?

Next is Cromag's mention of the Declaration of Indepance.

Mention of Nature's God is Still a mention of religious context.
Endowed by their creator.-Religious context.

The Declaration is a document of religious context and NON-Specific religious context is not viable means to negate it's involvement. The bill of rights included that statement to declare that the US Goverment would not declare and allegiance to support a specific religion nor deny ones right to practice that religion.

As far as the EU constitution is concerned. The beliefs of the majority will govern it's path.

Remember, Democracies nor Republics, make EVERYONE happy, just the majority of them, or those that voice their opinion the loudest (voting)

Julhelm · Post by **Julhelm** » 2003-02-07 03:05pm

Build new showers for the fundies...

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-02-07 03:39pm

Julhelm wrote:Build new showers for the fundies...

That's not even funny. If you speak of what I think, then it is in incredibly poor taste.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-07 03:57pm

There is call for religon to be part os anything to do with europe. Europe is a multi-religon state and for these fundies to basically demand Europe be Christian only in legislation is biggoted and offensive.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-02-07 04:11pm

Darth Pounder wrote:There is call for religon to be part os anything to do with europe. Europe is a multi-religon state and for these fundies to basically demand Europe be Christian only in legislation is biggoted and offensive.

What is their obssession with forcing religion on everyone else, if people do not want a cross on their wall its their choice.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-02-07 04:17pm

It's not going to happen. Currently, most countries of the E.U have conservative governments, and some of them are bound to have these ludicrous ideas. But a few elections will change that. The left wing is very strong in Europe, and against this. Also, only a handful of countries (and none of the more powerful) have any kind of fundie influence.

The portuguese Church is pratically crying for new students. The number of priests has fallen 50% in the last ten years.