Obama has torture memos released

[Lord of the Abyss]

Obama has torture memos released. The ACLU has links to the PDF files. I thought people might want a look. I'm kind of surprised that the Bush Administration didn't "accidentally" have them shredded.

[MKSheppard]

I love the first one. It's basically

"We found out that Mr. Terrorist was afraid of insects, so we told him we were going to confine him in a box with a stinging insect. Actually, it's just a harmless caterpillar."

among one technique approved.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I love the first one. It's basically

"We found out that Mr. Terrorist was afraid of insects, so we told him we were going to confine him in a box with a stinging insect. Actually, it's just a harmless caterpillar."

among one technique approved.

And interestingly the rest of that passage is blacked out.

Do remember that we are talking about a mentally ill man who was waterboarded before you go into your typical gloating.

[Cecelia5578]

I love the first one. It's basically

"We found out that Mr. Terrorist was afraid of insects, so we told him we were going to confine him in a box with a stinging insect. Actually, it's just a harmless caterpillar."

among one technique approved.

So Shep, to be a modern conservative tough guy wanker means approving of torture methods that are almost right out of 1984?

[Elfdart]

Obama has torture memos released. The ACLU has links to the PDF files. I thought people might want a look. I'm kind of surprised that the Bush Administration didn't "accidentally" have them shredded.

Why would they? They know they have nothing to fear.

[LMSx]

So Shep, to be a modern conservative tough guy wanker means approving of torture methods that are almost right out of 1984?

"You would like to place Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him," - Jay Bybee, judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

"‘The worst thing in the world,’ said O’Brien, ‘varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal,’" - George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty Four.

h/t Andrew Sullivan

[Broomstick]

I love the first one. It's basically

"We found out that Mr. Terrorist was afraid of insects, so we told him we were going to confine him in a box with a stinging insect. Actually, it's just a harmless caterpillar."

among one technique approved.

And interestingly the rest of that passage is blacked out.

Do remember that we are talking about a mentally ill man who was waterboarded before you go into your typical gloating.

Indeed, it reminds me of the torture scene in 1984 involving the protagonists worst fear (in his case, rats) and being confined and helpless to get away from it.

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

[Darksider]

can somebody tell me why the fuck Obama is refusing to prosecute these assholes? I know that the dumbass citizens of this country would never stand for trying Bush, Cheney, any of the higher ups, etc. But surely there is some low-level flunkie who can be taken to court over this.

Rights were violated, and human beings were tortured goddamit. Someone's gotta pay.

[Cecelia5578]

can somebody tell me why the fuck Obama is refusing to prosecute these assholes? I know that the dumbass citizens of this country would never stand for trying Bush, Cheney, any of the higher ups, etc. But surely there is some low-level flunkie who can be taken to court over this.

Rights were violated, and human beings were tortured goddamit. Someone's gotta pay.

1.Because Obama is a mushy moderate who will never be out in front of something like this.

2. The media and political establishment will never, ever allow him to get away with that.

3. The rump of a party that is the GOP will block to high heaven any attempt to do so.

4. Centrist Democrats will sabotage any effort.

5. There is a feeling Obama needs to save his political capital for...(fill in the blank). This is a pretty good excuse for inaction on any number of issues, really.

6. The government can't chew gum and concentrate on the economy at the same time.

[Broomstick]

If Obama is going to prosecute these guys (not that he will or won't, this is strictly hypothetical) he should save it for his second term, as prosecuting high government officials will absolutely kill his political career for good, and there are certain elements who would also see it as a prime excuse to put a bullet in his head - not that we don't have such nutjobs already. I mean, there's a reason the Secret Service acts as bodyguards. He's already running a higher-than-average risk of assassination for a PotUS on account of his race, not to mention his wife and children would also be targets. I'm sorry if that is perhaps too blunt and practical-minded for some, but he didn't get to be PotUS by being stupid. Now is not the time.

[MKSheppard]

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

Newsflash, I was bullied in school, and I don't think this activity is "Cruel and abusive".

Not when the alternative is what we did under Clinton -- fly these people out in "rendition flights" to unnamed A-rab countries for "energetic fingernail trimming" a/k/a having them ripped out.

I guess it's all okay when it's just brown people torturing other brown people for us, instead of us doing it ourselves.

[Gandalf]

Not when the alternative is what we did under Clinton -- fly these people out in "rendition flights" to unnamed A-rab countries for "energetic fingernail trimming" a/k/a having them ripped out.

I guess it's all okay when it's just brown people torturing other brown people for us, instead of us doing it ourselves.

Why is that the alternative?

[Lord of the Abyss]

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

Newsflash, I was bullied in school, and I don't think this activity is "Cruel and abusive".

Not when the alternative is what we did under Clinton -- fly these people out in "rendition flights" to unnamed A-rab countries for "energetic fingernail trimming" a/k/a having them ripped out.

I guess it's all okay when it's just brown people torturing other brown people for us, instead of us doing it ourselves.

Who said anything defending Clinton ? Or mentioned him besides you ? And we don't know what's under that black marker, nor was exposure to insects all we did.

[Thanas]

When did Clinton fly people to arab countries in order to have them tortured?

[Broomstick]

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

Newsflash, I was bullied in school, and I don't think this activity is "Cruel and abusive".

Waterboarding is cruel. If you don't think so there's something wrong with you.

The whole telling a guy with a bug phobia that the harmless caterpillar crawling on him is venomous is pretty damn cruel, too, if he's really got a phobia.

As for your accusations regarding Clinton - provide back up or retract them.

[Eleas]

Waterboarding is cruel. If you don't think so there's something wrong with you.

The whole telling a guy with a bug phobia that the harmless caterpillar crawling on him is venomous is pretty damn cruel, too, if he's really got a phobia.

As for your accusations regarding Clinton - provide back up or retract them.

Even if his unsubstantiated ramblings had some semblance of truth to them, Shep plainly doesn't understand that there is a limit to bodily pain. You only have a specific number of fingernails, and while having them ripped out hurts, you just try and compare that to terror so intense your body shuts down. Not that the Bush-era torturers by accounts have felt compelled to restrict themselves to just mental torture, of course. When the only rationale you have for not ripping our the toenails of victims sold to you by Afghan warlords is that it might leave marks, I think you've pretty much thrown away your humanity altogether.

...but then again, unlike these fine gentlemen, I'm not Jack Bauer, so what would I know about terrorists?

[Hillary]

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

Remember, the abused often grows up to become the abuser. I think it is fair to say that there would be plenty of victims of bullying who would be quite happy with these activities; granted that 100% of these would be bullies themsleves.

[Cecelia5578]

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

Newsflash, I was bullied in school, and I don't think this activity is "Cruel and abusive".

Not when the alternative is what we did under Clinton -- fly these people out in "rendition flights" to unnamed A-rab countries for "energetic fingernail trimming" a/k/a having them ripped out.

I guess it's all okay when it's just brown people torturing other brown people for us, instead of us doing it ourselves.

The difference being, that under Clinton rendition at least went through somewhat defined legal hoops-people who were convicted of crimes in their home countries were extradited there in order to face trial. Of course there were abuses under Clinton, but to believe that they approached the levels faced under Bush II would be preposterous; however, since Shep is in the business of argument by left wing moral equivalence, I'm not sure he'll care anyways. And, in the 90s, it the CIA wasn't torturing terrorists, or setting up long term detention facilities overseas.

Here's a good link at the Clinton Administration and renditions

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/0 ... rentPage=3

I will keep waiting for fresh evidence from Shep that Clinton was as bad as Bush was, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Darth Wong]

The only ones who can think these activities aren't cruel and abusive are bullies who have never, themselves, been victims of bullies.

Newsflash, I was bullied in school, and I don't think this activity is "Cruel and abusive".

Waterboarding is cruel. If you don't think so there's something wrong with you.

Shep is simply an unsympathetic personality type, so he is often indifferent to other peoples' suffering in general. The way he makes light of mass destruction and war deaths should have made that obvious a long time ago.

[loomer]

You know what, Shep? Why don't you tell us your greatest phobia.

And then I'll figure out a way to use it in a torture and post it here, and maybe then you'll get the picture that this particular event still constituted torture.

[Elfdart]

You know what, Shep? Why don't you tell us your greatest phobia.

Given his laptop sadism and constant nukesturbation, it probably involves kissing a girl.

And then I'll figure out a way to use it in a torture and post it here, and maybe then you'll get the picture that this particular event still constituted torture.

No he won't. He's just Kip Kinkle without the marksmanship.

[Samuel]

Given his laptop sadism and constant nukesturbation, it probably involves kissing a girl.

No, his greatest fear would be confined to Bhutan. No internet. No nukes. Living in a country that values "gross national happiness". He'd go nuts... or settle down and find his happy place.

On topic, do we have indicators that prosecutions will occur in the second term or is it just guess work?

[ray245]

Given his laptop sadism and constant nukesturbation, it probably involves kissing a girl.

No, his greatest fear would be confined to Bhutan. No internet. No nukes. Living in a country that values "gross national happiness". He'd go nuts... or settle down and find his happy place.

You know, that might be a great idea. Shep does seems rather kiddish or 'teenagerish' ( I know that is not a word), some cooling down of his ego might really help him and the whole community.

On topic, do we have indicators that prosecutions will occur in the second term or is it just guess work?

Not that I know of. However, the sheer amount of backlash (You really want more idiots to start doing mass protest that Obama is becoming a dictator by prosecuting all of his political rivals?) might discourage Obama from even thinking of taking any real actions even when he is in his second term.

No point trying to do the morally right thing if the Republicans managed to climb back to power after the Obama administration. Not in a political climate in the US.

[Lord of the Abyss]

On topic, do we have indicators that prosecutions will occur in the second term or is it just guess work?

Not that I know of. However, the sheer amount of backlash (You really want more idiots to start doing mass protest that Obama is becoming a dictator by prosecuting all of his political rivals?) might discourage Obama from even thinking of taking any real actions even when he is in his second term.

No point trying to do the morally right thing if the Republicans managed to climb back to power after the Obama administration. Not in a political climate in the US.

But refusing to prosecute makes it clear that we are lying when we say that we disapprove of torture. We're just unhappy that it became public. By refusing to prosecute, Obama is making it clear to future torturers that they have nothing to worry about, that we will shield them from any consequences of their actions. And probably present torturers, for that matter; I see no reason to think that Obama isn't having people tortured; just more discreetly than Bush. He's made his approval obvious with the refusal to prosecute.

[Broomstick]

You are confusing political expediency for approval.

This is somewhat - very roughly - akin to Gerald Ford's presidential pardon of Nixon after his resigned. VERY controversial at the time, a lot of people wanted to see Nixon in jail, and so on, but by pardoning him (or so the theory goes) the nation was able to move on to other things. (It did, in my opinion, cost Ford any last hope of actually being elected president, but then, the mere fact he was never elected to that office was such a strong mark against him that election was unlikely anyhow).

Do we want to fix the problems we are having with our nation or spend the next 4 years (minimum) pursuing multiple court cases with no guarantee of conviction? Which is really the best time and use of our resources? This is the ugly side of politics, that sometimes wrongs are not righted and criminals get away because the focus isn't always on maximizing justice. Obama is the chief executive, the guy who is supposed to get things done, he is NOT the long arm of the law.

More appropriately, the attorney general of the US should bring charges (if any), not the PotUS.