Pirate Bay founders sentenced in Sweden

[Dooey Jo]

Well we have one (former) prison which is a three-star hotel, so...

But more seriously, I suppose our prisons might be like pretty crappy hotels in that the cells are tiny rooms with a bed and a small TV, but it's not an hotel I'd like to stay in. You can't leave, can't decide when to get up or to bed, or even what to do, because it's not actually an hotel, it's a prison. And that's not even mentioning the other "guests" you have to stay with. They're not people that might just leave cum stains on the mattresses, they're criminals, and probably violent too.


About the verdict, I'd be surprised if this doesn't get appealed all the way to the supreme court, since it's apparently the first case of this kind. They're probably delusional if they think they're going to get away scotch free, but perhaps the higher courts won't cave to the record companies so easily. I mean, 30 million? For other crimes, like oh say rape, robbery or murder, the plaintiffs would be lucky to get even one percent of that! If you were locked in prison but found innocent after eight years, you'd get a third of that.

[Archaic`]

The real problem with this ruling isn't that these guys are getting stuck in prison (when they get to the top of the queue, which will take a long time with the Swedish overcrowded prison problem), but that the way the ruling was worded effectively means that Google, Yahoo, and any other search engine are held to be liable and accountable for users searching for copyrighted material through them, which is just unenforceable.

[Norseman]

Sure, but the point of "hotel" somehow makes me think of soft beds, freedom to move around in a decent room, television, running hot and cold water, no cellmates, freedom of association, decent meals etc.

Can only speak for Norwegian prisons but...

Decent room... check, bigger than what most students have, though you'd probably have a roomie.

Television... check. Ditto internet and computer in some prisons.

Running hot and cold water... check, ditto shower and bathroom in some prisons.

No cellmates... no, but you'd have maybe one other guy.

Freedom of association... limited of course.

Decent meals... check, though you can't have Halal.

Three star is a bit much, but many cells are more comfortable than the kind of hotel room *I* can afford.

[Stofsk]

I don't care how gilded the cage is, a prison is still a fucking prison. At the start and end of every day you are deprived of your liberty.

(that said, US jails are fucking obscene; just because someone's committed a crime doesn't mean a crime ought to be committed against them. Where the fuck is the duty of care?)

[Darth Hoth]

Sure, but the point of "hotel" somehow makes me think of soft beds, freedom to move around in a decent room, television, running hot and cold water, no cellmates, freedom of association, decent meals etc.

Of course swedish prisons are better than the USA. Still, I doubt any sane person who is there actually enjoyes it.

How about low-security Swedish prisons, where you actually get your own key?

Rooms - decent, I would say, depending on definition. You might have to share it with another guy, nowadays - some prisoners actually complain about that, which goes to show what it was like before.

Television - yes, and computers with Internet. It is specifically illegal to deny the prisoners access to media, including pornographic such. Even cell phones are smuggled in a lot, although that is not officially supposed to happen.

Running hot and cold water - hell yes.

Meals - one day's fare costs, on average, four and a half times a school lunch.

What more? Guards are not armed, a lot of them are women. Work is not mandatory, but made available. "Leave" (as in, you get to go out over the weekend unsupervised) is usually granted quite often.

Swedish prison is better than going unemployed, some people say. I would not necessarily agree, but compared to prison most anywhere else it is indeed a vacation.

[Minischoles]

Not to mention the two founders face time in a 'swedish' prison, which is more like a prepaid 3 star hotel than what any North American would typically associate with the word 'prison'.

Are you swedish and have you ever seen one? If not, where do you think you got the experience to declare prisons a prepaid 3 star hotel? I have been in 3 star hotels and I don't believe for one second prison is even close to that.

Obviously, he is engaging in hyperbole. However, it is doubtful that they are as brutal as American prisons, where prisoners are packed into facilities designed to handle half as many inmates as they are currently housing, and it is not uncommon for new inmates to be forced into a "turning out room" where they are beaten and raped.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/

Of course, proponents of this treatment have little explanation for the fact that people who come out of this system have such a high recidivism rate. If their theories are correct, the brutality should leave them "scared straight" and terrified of ever committing a crime again.

Wait there are still people stupid enough to believe that? that kind of thinking fell out of favour decades ago amongst criminologists. Hell it was being noticed as far back as the 19th century that brutalising people inside a prison simply leads to a higher re-offending rate.

[TheKwas]

Some ancedotes which are probably overstating the good and understating the bad:

The Israeli prisoners in Sweden are unwilling to hear about a possibility of continuing to serve their sentence in an Israeli prison. The reason: Prisons in the Scandinavian country resemble a five-star hotel.
Israeli prisoners jailed worldwide usually beg authorities


to extradite them to Israel in order to continue serving their sentence in their homeland. Despite their pleas, they are usually turned down.



In Sweden, however, it appears that the imprisonment conditions are so good that three Israelis jail there are not even considering leaving. Every prisoner has his own cell with a television airing the World Cup games for free; every six months, the prisoner gets to tour the streets of Stockholm accompanied by a police car; and the highlight – every prisoner has a the right to a three-day conjugal right in a three-room luxury apartment in the prison.



Israel and Sweden have signed an agreement enabling prisoners to serve the rest of their sentences in their homelands.



Jacob Shoshani, the Israeli consul-general to Stockholm, turned to the three Israelis held in the biggest Swedish prison Sodertalje, not far from the Swedish capital, and offered them to sign forms which will enable them to be transferred to an Israeli prison. He was surprised, however, when two of them avoided him and asked him to leave them alone and not bother them.



Sparkling clean cell, modern kitchen



The prisoners provided him with multiple and diverse reasons for their decision: The prison cell is sparkling clean, and over the weekend the prison does not serve food and each prisoner is allowed to order a variety of raw materials at a limited budget in order to fix himself a meal. One of the Israelis even told the consul that every Saturday he prepares great steaks for his fellow prisoners.



The kitchen is modern and sophisticated, like in a restaurant. In addition, the prisoners are offered a variety of activities such as football and basketball games.



Consul Shoshani approached one of the prison's commanders and asked why the prisoners are given such exaggerated conditions and whether this might not encourage people to commit crimes.



"I left with a feeling of a hotel, rather than a prison," Shoshani concluded in his report to the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 98,00.html

The cell has an area of six square metres. There is a bed, a wardrobe, a table, a chair and a bookcase. There are also a few personal items. The door has been locked since 8pm the previous day. But now it is 8am – breakfast time. Lunch is at 12 noon and dinner is at 5pm.

After dinner until lock-up, the prisoner can associate with other prisoners over a game of billiards or spend time in the gym. The rest of the time the inmate is obliged to participate in different programs. This could take the form of vocational training or participation in crime or substance abuse-related programs during working time.


Program activities
The aim of the program activities is to improve a prisoner's chances on the labour market and in society following release. The rest of the time the prisoner is obliged to participate in different programs.


Programs that provide experience
One of the most important prerequisites for a life without crime after serving a sentence is obtaining a job. In prison there are many alternatives when it comes to work and these cover a variety of trades, including engineering, woodworking, assembly, services, laundry and agriculture.

KrimProd is the common trading name used in the marketing and sale of products and services produced in prisons. The work is conducted on the same basis as a non-prison enterprise.
KrimProd's range includes store, warehouse and workshop furnishings, lockers, furniture made of steel and wood, road signs and barrier material. There is also extensive subcontracting. Visit www.krimprod.se for further information.


Programs that change things
Many programs aim to prevent continued substance abuse or a return to crime. Alcohol, narcotics, violence and sexual offence-related programs are just some examples.


Programs that educate
Many prisoners do not have basic skills such as reading, writing and arithmetic. A large proportion of the theoretical education is at primary school level. In some prisons, it is possible to study at high school level or pursue university studies.


Contacts outside
An important part of treatment is of course contact with the outside world in the form of leave and activities outside the prison. Prisoners have different qualification periods before their first leave. There are then regular, short leave periods lasting three days.
Prisoners can also spend time outside the prison for other reasons, such as studies or care for abuse problems. It is also possible for the majority of inmates to be involved in different associations and societies.


Contacts on the inside
Even more usual is contact with the world outside through visits to the prison. There are, for example, special rooms where families can spend time together.


Children whose parents have been deprived of their liberty
Most children come to visit a parent who has been deprived of his or her liberty. Some children, however, have no choice but to stay in the institution where the parent is imprisoned. This parent will in almost every instance be the child's mother.

A great deal of contact between children and parents takes place by telephone and through postcards or tape recordings. However, it is essential that children can meet their parents – during leave of course, but also in the prison itself. It is also important that the meeting can take place in a setting that is as normal as possible. There are therefore special visiting rooms and apartments where children can spend time with their parents.

http://www.kriminalvarden.se/templates/ ... _4051.aspx

[Jonen C]

Swedish prison is better than going unemployed, some people say. I would not necessarily agree, but compared to prison most anywhere else it is indeed a vacation.

Aye. The problem is you have to get a criminal record to go to jail, and that will come back to bite you in the ass sooner rather than later.
They also kick you out of jail relatively fast in Sweden. "Life" imprisonment in Sweden (as in "twenty to life") is something on the order of twenty years hard time, max - though this might be me being misinformed.

[cosmicalstorm]

I recall that the guy who wrote Catch Me If You Can stated that of all the prisons he ever visited around the world, the Swedish one was by far the best place to be in.

[Darth Wong]

They're probably delusional if they think they're going to get away scotch free ...

FYI: The correct phrase is "get away scot free", not "get away scotch free".

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/scot%20free.html

Scotch is a liquor.

[CJvR]

Well we had a case a few years ago of some fellow from the Baltics IIRC who came over and murdered some poor elderly guy because he wanted to go to a Swedish prison. The relative luxury of the prison system is not entirely uncontroversial, particulary not when it comes to career criminals who obviously have no intention of beingn rehabilitated.

[Dooey Jo]

If you come from Somalia or some shithole, I'm sure our prisons would be paradise, but I wouldn't want to be involuntarily confined to one place for years, no matter how luxurious the rooms are.

They're probably delusional if they think they're going to get away scotch free ...

FYI: The correct phrase is "get away scot free", not "get away scotch free".

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/scot%20free.html

Scotch is a liquor.

It's funny, because I actually googled the term before I used it, and that very same site told me that "scotch" free was the original wording, but on further investigation, it turns out that was just something some guy wrote on the bulletin board section of the site, using "scotch" as an old word for "scar" or "scratch". Damn bulletin boards

[Darth Hoth]

Swedish prison is better than going unemployed, some people say. I would not necessarily agree, but compared to prison most anywhere else it is indeed a vacation.

Aye. The problem is you have to get a criminal record to go to jail, and that will come back to bite you in the ass sooner rather than later.

For an ordinary, law-abiding citizen, that is true, and has a deterrent value; much less so, however, for career criminals or those awaiting expulsion.

They also kick you out of jail relatively fast in Sweden. "Life" imprisonment in Sweden (as in "twenty to life") is something on the order of twenty years hard time, max - though this might be me being misinformed.

It can be somewhat longer in very publicised cases, but it is usually thereabouts. The standard penalty for Murder One is ten years, and unless you go out of your way to be violent and uncooperative in prison the general standard is to release you after you have served two thirds of the sentence (one year minimum, however).

[Edi]

I didn't think murder had that lenient sentencing even in Sweden. In Finland it's a life sentence (as in the rest of your life), but typically people become eligible for pardon in 12 years and then it's up to the president to either grant it or refuse to do so. Longest fixed length sentence for a single crime is 12 years and 15 for a combination of more than one if you get 12 and then have the other crimes added. That said, involuntary confinement due to posing a public hazard is not constrained by these limits and can last indefinitely.

[Darth Hoth]

The standard sentence for murder used to be life (which would typically mean 20-something, give or take a few years), but a couple of years ago the courts re-evaluated the standard and lowered it to ten years.

[Big Orange]

A lot of Swedish people are seeing the Pirate Bay case as a waste of time, money, and resources when the the authorities should really be going after career criminals and serial rapists, people who directly hurt or kill innocent people, instead of the media leeches running Pirate Bay who are merely indirectly hurting faceless companies through their wallets (different degrees of badness).

[Julhelm]

Well law enforcement is a joke in this country anyway so it's hardly surprising.

[cosmicalstorm]

I didn't think murder had that lenient sentencing even in Sweden. In Finland it's a life sentence (as in the rest of your life), but typically people become eligible for pardon in 12 years and then it's up to the president to either grant it or refuse to do so. Longest fixed length sentence for a single crime is 12 years and 15 for a combination of more than one if you get 12 and then have the other crimes added. That said, involuntary confinement due to posing a public hazard is not constrained by these limits and can last indefinitely.

It's even softer than that on occasion, minors (15-21 years or so) rarely receive more than three or four years for murder. None of the guys who started the infamous Gothenburg discothèque fire in 1998, which killed 63 people and wounded another 200, spent more than seven years in jail.

[Darth Wong]

I didn't think murder had that lenient sentencing even in Sweden. In Finland it's a life sentence (as in the rest of your life), but typically people become eligible for pardon in 12 years and then it's up to the president to either grant it or refuse to do so. Longest fixed length sentence for a single crime is 12 years and 15 for a combination of more than one if you get 12 and then have the other crimes added. That said, involuntary confinement due to posing a public hazard is not constrained by these limits and can last indefinitely.

It's even softer than that on occasion, minors (15-21 years or so) rarely receive more than three or four years for murder. None of the guys who started the infamous Gothenburg discothèque fire in 1998, which killed 63 people and wounded another 200, spent more than seven years in jail.

What the fuck. If I lived in a country with such incredibly lenient punishments for murder and someone killed my family, I think I'd want to just go murder him in broad daylight and accept the sentence.

[Julhelm]

Well murder isn't that common yet outside of criminal circles, but what's annoying is that we have a bit of a rape scourge these days and it's the same infuriatingly lax and nonchalant law enforcement. It should tell you something that last week, a prosecutor actually dropped the case after the rape victim commited suicide hours before the trial was to begin. So the rapist got off scot free despite the fact everybody knew he was guilty as fuck. More often than not, they'll let the men off on idiotic excuses like "well they didn't understand the woman did not want to have sex with 6 men" or "she had anal sex with them before so obviously she had to be willing".

Meanwhile if you shoot a kid who has tormented your family with his gang for 3 years in self defence because they're on your frontyard with 2x4's threatening to kill your family, you get the book thrown at you.

[Darth Hoth]

A lot of Swedish people are seeing the Pirate Bay case as a waste of time, money, and resources when the the authorities should really be going after career criminals and serial rapists, people who directly hurt or kill innocent people, instead of the media leeches running Pirate Bay who are merely indirectly hurting faceless companies through their wallets (different degrees of badness).

This is of course a stupid argument. Taken to its logical conclusion, we should complete stop all attempts to combat crimes against property and concentrate all resources on violent crime, because it is "worse".

[Darth Hoth]

It's even softer than that on occasion, minors (15-21 years or so) rarely receive more than three or four years for murder. None of the guys who started the infamous Gothenburg discothèque fire in 1998, which killed 63 people and wounded another 200, spent more than seven years in jail.

I thought you only counted as a minor up to 18 under the system? But yes, the harshest punishment you can get for crimes committed under that age is four years of "youth detention," or basically Swedish Prison Light.

That is for murder, of course. It is in no way certain that you will be sentenced for that. Beating someone to death but claiming no murderous intent will usually land you with assault and involuntary manslaughter (you did not know kicking his head in could kill him, after all!), maximum penalty for either being two years separately. For adults, that is, it is probably less for minors.

What the fuck. If I lived in a country with such incredibly lenient punishments for murder and someone killed my family, I think I'd want to just go murder him in broad daylight and accept the sentence.

Yeah. It is indeed a pretty screwed-up system.

[Darth Hoth]

Well murder isn't that common yet outside of criminal circles, but what's annoying is that we have a bit of a rape scourge these days and it's the same infuriatingly lax and nonchalant law enforcement. It should tell you something that last week, a prosecutor actually dropped the case after the rape victim commited suicide hours before the trial was to begin. So the rapist got off scot free despite the fact everybody knew he was guilty as fuck. More often than not, they'll let the men off on idiotic excuses like "well they didn't understand the woman did not want to have sex with 6 men" or "she had anal sex with them before so obviously she had to be willing".

Um, her testimony was the sole evidence the prosecution had for its case. No evidence=no case, in a state built on innocent till proven guilty. I for one am glad that they keep some standards of evidence, rather than positing an opposite burden of proof like the feminists would have it.

Meanwhile if you shoot a kid who has tormented your family with his gang for 3 years in self defence because they're on your frontyard with 2x4's threatening to kill your family, you get the book thrown at you.

That particular guy got off lightly, though (sentenced but no punishment due to temporary insanity). It is fucked up, and we seriously need better self-defence laws, but there are much worse examples. I would rather bring up the guy who shot a man breaking and entering, got a heart attack in the struggle and was then sentenced to pay the burglar SEK 100,000 (about $11,000, then) in reparations.

[Big Orange]

A lot of Swedish people are seeing the Pirate Bay case as a waste of time, money, and resources when the the authorities should really be going after career criminals and serial rapists, people who directly hurt or kill innocent people, instead of the media leeches running Pirate Bay who are merely indirectly hurting faceless companies through their wallets (different degrees of badness).

This is of course a stupid argument. Taken to its logical conclusion, we should complete stop all attempts to combat crimes against property and concentrate all resources on violent crime, because it is "worse".

Please stop putting words into my mouth, I never said piracy was a good thing and should be encouraged, I wouldn't want to see Wolverine on a poxy PC/Mac monitor and it is avoiding paying revenue to the company who made it. Property theft and damage out in the real world can often be interlinked with physical violence, so it is still worse than grubbily "borrowing" something from offline without paying for it that remains in surplus. However I'm honest enough to buy something if they're selling it and avoid bootleg products of something that is widely available.

Media piracy is more of a grey area and seems to be a bigger problem when companies are hurting innocent consumers in trying to contain it therefore self-fulling their prophecy, I mean what is the real point of multi-regional DVDs and did it work? And then what about the inconvenience of not being able to get certain TV show or movie on DVD in the first place, due to convoluted, braindead copyright laws (usually involving music content) forcing them into avoidable cul de sacs? Laziness and selfishness is a two way street and is even worse when it is institutional.

[CJvR]

Meanwhile if you shoot a kid who has tormented your family with his gang for 3 years in self defence because they're on your frontyard with 2x4's threatening to kill your family, you get the book thrown at you.

That particular guy got off lightly, though (sentenced but no punishment due to temporary insanity). It is fucked up, and we seriously need better self-defence laws, but there are much worse examples. I would rather bring up the guy who shot a man breaking and entering, got a heart attack in the struggle and was then sentenced to pay the burglar SEK 100,000 (about $11,000, then) in reparations.

The actual self defence law is fairly good IIRC. The problem is that those implementing it have never been mugged. So they sit for days examining every blow that was thrown in a few seconds of panik to decide if it was justified or not in the strictest interpretation of the law and if one blow isn't they will throw the book at you! Add to that the fact that violence have a much higher punitive value than theft and you get some strange results.
Use violence against a thief? He get probation, damages and you go to jail!