What if a Star Forge was found in the OT/PT?(KOTOR spoilers)

[FaxModem1]

Ok, let's assume, for whatever reason, that the Star Forge survived or there was another Star Forge and is discovered either shortly before The Phantom Menace or A New Hope, what would happen?

Scenario 1: Its found by Senator Palpatine about two months before the events of The Phantom Menace
Scenario 2: It is discovered by the Jedi council two months before the events of The Phantom Menace.
Scenario 3: Its found by Darth Vader two months before the events of A New Hope.
Scenario 4: Its found by Princess Leia two months before the events of A New Hope.

Each of these has a A/B side to them.

A, they remember their history and remember that Revan used a Star Forge to gather an armada and war droids to conquer the galaxy.

B. They don't remember think they were were the first to discover this amazing tool.

So, what happens?

[Oskuro]

I always wondered where did they get the massive amount of personnel to man the ships in KotOR (considering that the Sith troops were not droids).

If the ships do not include a crew, all the scenarios, save for Vader and the recruiting might of the militarized Empire, would have little use for it.

[FOG3]

It's made clear in the game that the Sith movement is reasonably popular, and they've seized a respectable amount of territory including their de facto alliance with Czerka. Why would crewing the ships be a problem? They have a sufficient initial force for setting up training facilities to be a reasonable expectation.

A few thousand here and there from easily Trillions of citizens worth of territory wouldn't exactly be straining their resources.

As for the OP, a Star Forge for Palpatine is zero value addition in my book. What need for a Star Forge that requires Dark Siders feeding/running it when you can practically sit back, own the galaxy, and order Kuat and other large yards to turn out more ships in total? How would non-Dark Siders be able to use it for more then a glorified gargantuan paper weight?

[Darth Paxis]

1. Palpatine might find a use for it in the time before Phantom Menace. He wouldn't rely on it too heavily, but he would probably use it for something. He could use the ships to bribe people that aren't already in his pocket.

2. The Jedi would probably destroy it after they found out that it is a dark side superweapon.

3. Vader would try to keep it a secret and use it to overthrow Palpatine.

4. Leia would report it to the Alliance but they wouldn't be able to do much except use the system as a base (assuming that this Star Forge is in a relativly unexplored area of the galaxy, like the first one was)

[Solauren]

#1
Immedaitely before the Phantom menace, Palpatine doesn't have alot of use for it. Sure, some ship building is good, but really, it's not going to do him alot of good.

More than likely, he'll arrange for it to be studied in secret, or make a mental note about it.

During the Clone Wars, however, it's a totally different story. If he was using it to support the war, say by giving the CSA additional ships and troops, he could ramp up the death tolls considerably. Imagine the effect of using the Starforge to say, build suicide ships, who's entire purpose is to drop out of hyperspace, ram, and explode a ship with a few Jedi generals on it?

Not that I think about it, I have to wonder if some left over schematics for the Starforge, or someone's analysis of it, found it's way into a Sith holocron, and helped form the foundation for the World Devestator technology....


#2
The Jedi council would want it destroyed. More then likely, Palpatine would have someone step it to perserve it for historical reasons, and then we are back to step #1.
Either that, or Palpatine could agree it's a threat, and it ends up destroyed or tossed into a star.
Would a star even hurt the Starforge?

#3
Huh. That's a interesting scenario. Darth vader with access to the Starforge. Wow.
Now the question is; how actively was he working to take down Palaptine and become the Master + Emperor at this point?
Or had he given up? It's hard to know with Vader. He seems to flip flop around a bit on that until Luke shows up.

Vader would either turn it over to the Emperor (if he was in one of his loyal to the bone phases), destroy it (if he thought it could be used against him), or have it relocated secretly to use himself.

It really depends on his motivations at the time.

#4
This is the only scenario where knowledge of the Starforge matters.

The rebellion would not want to risk something like that falling into the hands of the empire. Especially Bail Organa, who knows who Vader is. (Never mind by this point, the leadership of the Rebellion is aware that the Emperor is a Sith Lord).
Odds are, they'd tried to destroy it. I can't reasonably see any of them trying to use it.

Now of course, there's the possiblity Leia doesn't know what the Starforge is, and it calls to her somehow through the Dark Side. In that case, we end up with a 3 way war eventually.


Without knowledge of the Starforge, this situation gets nasty. Before they realise it's a Dark side weapon, what few force sensitives and Jedi are working with the rebellion (i.e General Kota, Colonel Reniz), may have turned to the Dark Side. They may even conceal the fact it's a Dark Side weapon from the rebel leadership.

The situatation would rapidly turn into two armies lead by Darksiders, with Superweapons, classing for control of the galaxy.

Which makes me wonder; What would the Death Star Superlaser do to the Starforge?

[Darth Paxis]

Quick question. Does knowing that Revan used a Star Forge mean that they know that it is a Dark Side superweapon?
You'd think that they would, but it was almost 4,000 years ago, so is it possible that history remembers it only as a giant World Devastator?

[Samuel]

The records are supposed to be pretty bad- they might not even know who Raven is.

As for destroying it, in KoTOR it was destroyed by blasting the stabilizer and letting it fall into a star. Not too hard to wreak.

Not that I think about it, I have to wonder if some left over schematics for the Starforge, or someone's analysis of it, found it's way into a Sith holocron, and helped form the foundation for the World Devestator technology....

NO. WDs are built upon the idea of construction droids, not wielding the force to make things from hydrogen. There is no connection whatsoever.

[Darth Onasi]

#2
The Jedi council would want it destroyed. More then likely, Palpatine would have someone step it to perserve it for historical reasons, and then we are back to step #1.
Either that, or Palpatine could agree it's a threat, and it ends up destroyed or tossed into a star.
Would a star even hurt the Starforge?

Considering a small Republic fleet blasts it to bits in the light side ending I doubt it's ability to withstand being tossed into a star.

[TC Pilot]

They don't "blast it to bits." It's about a million times too large for them to do that. They just cripple a single system, the orbital stabilizer, which makes it fall toward the star and explode.

[Starglider]

In Scenario (1), even if Palpatine gets no significant use out of it through the movie era, it would come in very handy in the Dark Empire era. Palpatine spent a lot of time and effort rebuilding his power base by subverting existing forces and still had a hard time matching the New Republic, being forced to resort to superweapons to gain a military advantage. Being able to churn out masses of fresh firepower would greatly speed up that process and make the Dark Empire considerably stronger.

[Darth Hoth]

So do we have any numbers on the Star Forge, anything calculable on its industrial capacity? Because what we see in the game is not exactly impressive by the established standards of the universe. Its main use to Darksiders with ready access to conventional shipyards, such as Palpatine, will be as a focus/amplifier for their power.

[Samuel]

So do we have any numbers on the Star Forge, anything calculable on its industrial capacity? Because what we see in the game is not exactly impressive by the established standards of the universe. Its main use to Darksiders with ready access to conventional shipyards, such as Palpatine, will be as a focus/amplifier for their power.

Trying to calculate it runs into gameplay/story segreagtion problems. To be blunt, the Republic in KoTOR is portrayed as incredibly small- for example, on the attack on the Star Forge the Admiral orders individual squads of starfighters into a breach.

[TC Pilot]

The Star Forge battle is odd that the cutscenes fluctuate between showing a handful of Republic and Sith ships, gazillions of Sith, and, in the final Light Side cutscene where the Republic destroys the Star Forge, a hell of a lot of Republic ships. Generally, the impression is that a huge Republic fleet is battling a huge Sith fleet across the entire system. You don't see it in the cutscenes much, but it's there if you look for it.

[Darth Hoth]

Trying to calculate it runs into gameplay/story segreagtion problems. To be blunt, the Republic in KoTOR is portrayed as incredibly small- for example, on the attack on the Star Forge the Admiral orders individual squads of starfighters into a breach.

More minimalism, it seems . . . Although not terribly out of place in that retarded videogame era. Are they not now rewriting it so that the Republic were total retards who lost most of their territory to the Sith, in order to fit continuity with that MMORPG game?

Still, the Star Forge is very unimpressive as a factory besides a military-industrial complex that can churn out Death Stars, judging by anything remotely quantifiable (taking the upper limit and assuming the armada from the end cutscene was all built there, in short order).

[Darth Tanner]

I always wondered where did they get the massive amount of personnel to man the ships in KotOR

When Revan turns to evil he takes most of the Republic fleet he was leading with him. Also there seems to be a lot of droids supporting the organic Sith troops

I'd image the more useful element of the Star Forge would be the disabling field that can be generated in system to effectively wipe out entire fleets. The rebels in particular would find it invaluable for defending a base either on the planet or station from Imperial discovery. If Palpatine or Vader get hold of it I see it just being used as some form of secluded retreat to study the darkside from, with the added defence of being in an automated factory with a anti ship defence field.

Which makes me wonder; What would the Death Star Superlaser do to the Starforge?

Turn it into a fine spread of hydrogen atoms?

Still, the Star Forge is very unimpressive as a factory

I'd have thought that a war factory capable of building small fleets without any exterior input of materials would be very useful. Maybe not for churning out the warships of the line but for top secret projects that you don't want to involve civilian contractors in.

[Darth Paxis]

I'd image the more useful element of the Star Forge would be the disabling field that can be generated in system to effectively wipe out entire fleets.

Wasn't that generated by the temple on the planet? If this Star Forge is in fact a second one, then would it generate the same effect?

Also, If I remember the game right, wasn't the fleet that the Republic sends all it could spare, and not a real representation of their fleet size.

[Samuel]

The Star Forge battle is odd that the cutscenes fluctuate between showing a handful of Republic and Sith ships, gazillions of Sith, and, in the final Light Side cutscene where the Republic destroys the Star Forge, a hell of a lot of Republic ships. Generally, the impression is that a huge Republic fleet is battling a huge Sith fleet across the entire system. You don't see it in the cutscenes much, but it's there if you look for it.

Heh- you are right. If you pause...

Well, youtube fills the gaps for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c36SvnY4YEk

The start shows you the might of the Star Forge. At :35 there is 129 Sith capital ships on the screen. Or the exact opening where you can see their fleet with the naked eye from across the star system.

3:54 shows what is... odd. The tactics for the battle are bizarre. Green squadren which breaks through the Sith's lines is 12 ships. Red Squadren is 15 ships. The "breech" is a gap between two capital ships... 3 capital ships are seen moving towar the spot.

[Darth Onasi]

They don't "blast it to bits." It's about a million times too large for them to do that. They just cripple a single system, the orbital stabilizer, which makes it fall toward the star and explode.

True enough, but the thing begins to break apart with internal explosions long before it drops into the star.
In any case the point was that the Star Forge wasn't exceptionally robust, in comparison with other Star Wars tech of course.

The start shows you the might of the Star Forge. At :35 there is 129 Sith capital ships on the screen. Or the exact opening where you can see their fleet with the naked eye from across the star system.

That however is the final dark side ending cinematic which occurs after that battle with Revan reclaiming the Star Forge.
Such numbers of Sith ships aren't seen in the battle itself, the implication is that the Star Forge mass-produced these.

The "breech" is a gap between two capital ships... 3 capital ships are seen moving towar the spot.

Actually I think the breach was the two Leviathans being disabled, as they're seen starting to drift downwards a moment later.

[Samuel]

That however is the final dark side ending cinematic which occurs after that battle with Revan reclaiming the Star Forge.
Such numbers of Sith ships aren't seen in the battle itself, the implication is that the Star Forge mass-produced these.

Actually that is the ships I counted

Actually I think the breach was the two Leviathans being disabled, as they're seen starting to drift downwards a moment later.

The very concept of a breech in a space battle against a stationary target when you could simply pound it with long range fire... lets just blame it all on jamming.

[Darth Hoth]

I'd have thought that a war factory capable of building small fleets without any exterior input of materials would be very useful. Maybe not for churning out the warships of the line but for top secret projects that you don't want to involve civilian contractors in.

As opposed to what, the military sending out its own proto-World Devastators to mine Anonymous Asteroid Field P3X-224978956441214 in the odd end of Nowhere in an unexplored arm of the galaxy and using the materials to build ships from scratch, like Durga did on the cheap with his Darksaber? They built Death Stars in the middle of nowhere in complete secrecy and in a matter of months, using self-replicating robots; Star Forges just cannot compete.

I'd image the more useful element of the Star Forge would be the disabling field that can be generated in system to effectively wipe out entire fleets.

Yet . . . the system was full of Sith ships. It knocked down one small courier vessel when it came too close to the planet, not that massive fleet. This tells us that the field most likely did not cover the entire system.

[bilateralrope]

I'd image the more useful element of the Star Forge would be the disabling field that can be generated in system to effectively wipe out entire fleets.

Yet . . . the system was full of Sith ships. It knocked down one small courier vessel when it came too close to the planet, not that massive fleet. This tells us that the field most likely did not cover the entire system.

The field had already been disabled when the fleet arrived. Though that does mean that it was produced on the planet, not on the Star Forge.

[Darth Hoth]

The field had already been disabled when the fleet arrived. Though that does mean that it was produced on the planet, not on the Star Forge.

The Star Forge was throwing out ships all the while (were there not some in the cutscene?), and anyway there must reasonably be pretty steady traffic in and out of the system with their biggest factory, especially if it was also their galactic command center. Not to mention, if the field had covered all the system they would never have managed to come even nearly as close to the sun as they did, never mind crashed on the planet.

[TC Pilot]

As opposed to what, the military sending out its own proto-World Devastators to mine Anonymous Asteroid Field P3X-224978956441214 in the odd end of Nowhere in an unexplored arm of the galaxy and using the materials to build ships from scratch, like Durga did on the cheap with his Darksaber? They built Death Stars in the middle of nowhere in complete secrecy and in a matter of months, using self-replicating robots; Star Forges just cannot compete.

You do realize the Star Forge is about a billion times larger than World Devastators, right? And that it extracts materials directly from a star. How is that not infinitely more effective?

[Darth Tanner]

You do realize the Star Forge is about a billion times larger than World Devastators

From the scene where the Republic cruisers fly around its structure I'd have hazarded a guess its only four or so kilometres wide and a hundred times the mass of a World Devastator.

Wasn't that generated by the temple on the planet?

My mistake, I thought it was merely controlled from the planet, not generated there as well. However wouldn't finding the Star Forge necessitate finding the planet based weapon anyway. I'd imagine it would make a useful planetary defence weapon, assuming it doesn't interfere with planetary shields.

Yet . . . the system was full of Sith ships.

I assumed that in typical sci fi fashion that the Sith ships were immune to the field, either from manipulation of the field or modifications to the Sith ships. Evil Bastila is able to land on the planet after all when the field is still in effect as I recall.

It knocked down one small courier vessel when it came too close to the planet

The planets surface is littered by ships, including Republic cruisers and vast ships that have crashed down in the oceans.

In any case the point was that the Star Forge wasn't exceptionally robust, in comparison with other Star Wars tech of course.

It is nearly 30,000 years old by this point, even with Rakata self repair technology its not going to be in pristine condition, let alone comparable to societies with millennia of weapon research on them.

[Master_Baerne]

It's not that the Star Forge isn't effective, it's that it's not particularly useful when you already have a galaxy worth of resources and droid factories and stuff. It's wonderful thing to have, certainly, but not worth going to extraordinary lengths for.