BSG: Caprica

[Stofsk]

That's if it does well.

You just want your battlestar porn, admit it.

[D.Turtle]

I thought the plot of Caprica was that the Cylons in the Colonies arrived at religion and rebellion due to a human Cylon made by one of the scientists in the show?

This is the plot of the pilot (obviously spoilers): Spoiler

The main guy is head of a large tech firm trying to build an AI controlled war-robot. However, they can't get the AI right. His daughter is a super genius who has, in her spare time, built an AI copy of herself. She (the girl) is a believer in the One-True-God (tm). While running away from her family, because she hates them, with some other true believers, one of the true believers blows himself (and her) sky high in a suicide bombing. Her father finds out about her AI copy, tries to download her into the war robot, which doesn't work and she dies (yes, even though the AI is a program which should be able to be copied at will, and despite the fact that the AI copy was built by drawing on publicly available information from various medical scans and the like, she is permanently gone - or thats what her father thinks). The father uses the basis of the AI code to make a proper AI capable of controlling the war-robot, calling it a CYLON. His company gets the contract from the Caprica government to build more of them. In the end, apparently something of the AI copy of his daughter DID survive, as we see her call a friend of hers.

There is no human Cylon. The AI lives in a virtual reality internet thing built by her father.

[Starglider]

(plot)

You know there is one part of that which I am happy to say is unrealistic - in reality, AI researchers as a group are very secular, and there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and theism as well - all the most competent researchers I know are atheists. Fortunately, it seems that understanding how the mind works well enough to try and duplicate tends to reveal religion for the petty hallucination that it is.

[Darth Onasi]

This is the plot of the pilot (obviously spoilers): Spoiler

The main guy is head of a large tech firm trying to build an AI controlled war-robot. However, they can't get the AI right. His daughter is a super genius who has, in her spare time, built an AI copy of herself. She (the girl) is a believer in the One-True-God (tm). While running away from her family, because she hates them, with some other true believers, one of the true believers blows himself (and her) sky high in a suicide bombing. Her father finds out about her AI copy, tries to download her into the war robot, which doesn't work and she dies (yes, even though the AI is a program which should be able to be copied at will, and despite the fact that the AI copy was built by drawing on publicly available information from various medical scans and the like, she is permanently gone - or thats what her father thinks). The father uses the basis of the AI code to make a proper AI capable of controlling the war-robot, calling it a CYLON. His company gets the contract from the Caprica government to build more of them. In the end, apparently something of the AI copy of his daughter DID survive, as we see her call a friend of hers.

There is no human Cylon. The AI lives in a virtual reality internet thing built by her father.

Spoiler

Well then, it's official. Toasters are too stupid to come up with a religion on their own; they need a human-imprint AI to do it. Yay.

I wonder if maybe this girl was a believer was contacted by an "angel", like Baltar. Hence, the entire war is "God"'s fault from the beginning.

[Netko]

(plot)

You know there is one part of that which I am happy to say is unrealistic - in reality, AI researchers as a group are very secular, and there seems to be an inverse relationship between skill and theism as well - all the most competent researchers I know are atheists. Fortunately, it seems that understanding how the mind works well enough to try and duplicate tends to reveal religion for the petty hallucination that it is.

Going by some of the clips I saw, I think you're going to like the dad Spoiler

- besides atheism, he has a couple of lines that you're going to love, or at least be willing to give out a merit badge for (like, once realizing what she is, treating the (stated) perfect AI copy of his daughter as his daughter because "a difference that makes no difference is not a difference" ie. trowing out the whole continuity of consciousness argument).

Too bad he's apparently being set up as the naive bad guy so that luddite bashing can commence (creator of the Cylons and all).

[Ford Prefect]

It's a pity, because Daniel Graystone is pretty much the only good part of the pilot.

[Havok]

Thinking this over... why is anyone mad that AIs i.e. computers, are "too stupid" to come up with religion on their own. Doesn't it make perfect sense that it takes an irrational human mind to come up with something as ridiculous as "God" and religion. Shouldn't we be happy that the Cylons didn't make the faulty leap of logic to "God" and that it was interference from an outside source that did it. Advanced Artificial Intelligences, in my mind, should NEVER arrive at the concept of "God" on their own. A creator, maybe, but only in a sense that they realize they were made by somebody else, which is factual.

[Starglider]

Thinking this over... why is anyone mad that AIs i.e. computers, are "too stupid" to come up with religion on their own. Doesn't it make perfect sense that it takes an irrational human mind to come up with something as ridiculous as "God" and religion.

Yes. There are certain classes of AGI that could conceivably be that stupid (e.g. evolved NNs) but with the ability to self-modify, the stupid wouldn't stick around for very long. AGI behaviour theory is still far too immature to put a number on this, but I think the chances of even a bad de-novo design getting stuck in theistic world-view are very low. That whole 'faith' thing is just too ridiculous and unstable.

Of course human clones and human uploads are technically AI and can be just as religious as normal humans.

Too bad he's apparently being set up as the naive bad guy so that luddite bashing can commence (creator of the Cylons and all).

Yes, it looks like the daily hate of RDM may now commence.

Oh well. After the robots have taken over the world they will be able to make TV shows in which they are the good guys.

[Darth Onasi]

Thinking this over... why is anyone mad that AIs i.e. computers, are "too stupid" to come up with religion on their own. Doesn't it make perfect sense that it takes an irrational human mind to come up with something as ridiculous as "God" and religion. Shouldn't we be happy that the Cylons didn't make the faulty leap of logic to "God" and that it was interference from an outside source that did it. Advanced Artificial Intelligences, in my mind, should NEVER arrive at the concept of "God" on their own. A creator, maybe, but only in a sense that they realize they were made by somebody else, which is factual.

Well in a sense a true AI capable of full sapience should be just as irrational as us. They would be, after all, an extension of us and be "human".
The Cylons have always been presented as irrational in any case, genocide is not a logical action, especially when the other side has a truce with you.

[Starglider]

Well in a sense a true AI capable of full sapience should be just as irrational as us.

Why? Human irrationality is a design flaw. Remember that humans are the very first generally intelligent organisms evolution (on Earth) managed to produce, and as such can be expected to suck.

They would be, after all, an extension of us and be "human".

Sane people do not deliberately set out to make broken, unreliable technological devices. Of course incompetent designers can do it by accident.

The Cylons have always been presented as irrational in any case

Well the humano-cylons (aka human clones) anyway, we didn't get much characterisation on even the un-restricted centurions in nBSG.

genocide is not a logical action, especially when the other side has a truce with you.

Not necessarily. If the humans have no intrinsic value, then they are a long term threat regardless of their current intentions, and should be removed if there is a reasonably safe way to do so. Personally I would find it hilarious not to mention quite satisfying if the centurions secretly realised the vulnerability of the hub and the colony, but decided to do nothing about it, as with luck those annoying clones would get themselves killed and leave cylon civilisation to the real cylons.

[Darth Onasi]

Well in a sense a true AI capable of full sapience should be just as irrational as us.

Why? Human irrationality is a design flaw. Remember that humans are the very first generally intelligent organisms evolution (on Earth) managed to produce, and as such can be expected to suck.

I wouldn't really call it a design flaw, more a part of our capacity for imagination. We will make up explanations for things we don't or can't understand or simply what we want to be.
In my opinion this can produce both good fiction and restrictive religion, but it isn't a "flaw" as such.

Sane people do not deliberately set out to make broken, unreliable technological devices. Of course incompetent designers can do it by accident.

Sane people wouldn't make sapient robot slaves either - that's just asking for trouble.

Well the humano-cylons (aka human clones) anyway, we didn't get much characterisation on even the un-restricted centurions in nBSG.

True enough, but being convinced to make human-clones in the first place doesn't really point to a highly rational machine culture. The centurion's bodies are more suited for space travel anyway.

Not necessarily. If the humans have no intrinsic value, then they are a long term threat regardless of their current intentions, and should be removed if there is a reasonably safe way to do so.

I would assume a rational culture would see the value of life and the preservation of society. The Colonies were not inherently bad or hostile so there was no real reason to wipe them out.
I could certainly see them attempting to take over the Colonies - by force if necesarry - in order to "save humans from themselves" and bring order to their culture.

Personally I would find it hilarious not to mention quite satisfying if the centurions secretly realised the vulnerability of the hub and the colony, but decided to do nothing about it, as with luck those annoying clones would get themselves killed and leave cylon civilisation to the real cylons.

I would've liked for the Cylons to have found religion for themselves in a fit of irrationality then willingly gone along with making the human-Cylons and following their plan, then realising they've become worse than the humans ever were and getting rid of them and allying with the Colonials on their own initiative - none of this lobotomisation crap.

[Starglider]

Well in a sense a true AI capable of full sapience should be just as irrational as us.

Why? Human irrationality is a design flaw.

I wouldn't really call it a design flaw, more a part of our capacity for imagination. We will make up explanations for things we don't or can't understand or simply what we want to be.

Rationality has nothing to do with imagination; even in crosstalk-prone humans the correlation between those two virtues is dubious at best. Rationality means not assigning a high probability of your fantasies actually matching reality unless there is copious evidence to support that correspondence. Faith is the direct assertion of 'imagination == reality' with no supporting evidence. It is in the same class of cognitive failure as a druggie directly maxing out their pleasure center.

Sane people do not deliberately set out to make broken, unreliable technological devices.

Sane people wouldn't make sapient robot slaves either - that's just asking for trouble.

Well, that's a complex issue, not least because 'sapient' is an ambigious word. Let's just say that it's extremely difficult to get human-like flexibility and problem solving abilities without running into these issues.

True enough, but being convinced to make human-clones in the first place doesn't really point to a highly rational machine culture. The centurion's bodies are more suited for space travel anyway.

We don't know the details of this, but if even the mechanical cylons are based on a human upload, that would explain a lot. One might optimistically assume that the late-model centurions designed by the cylons themselves might be less burdened by this.

I would assume a rational culture would see the value of life and the preservation of society.

Why? Life has no more 'inherent value' than cheesecake. There is absolutely zero indication of any sort of 'objective morality', and IMHO the whole concept is an oxymoron.

The Colonies were not inherently bad or hostile so there was no real reason to wipe them out.

As the 'maximal realist' people like to say, state policy is based on capability (current and future), not intent, because intent is a product of politics and circumstance and can easily change.

[Samuel]

Not to mention that the cyclons had a limited opportunity to wipe out the colonies- it isn't like the colonies have insanly corrupt programmers every day. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity and they picked it.

[Starglider]

Not to mention that the cyclons had a limited opportunity to wipe out the colonies- it isn't like the colonies have insanly corrupt programmers every day. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity and they picked it.

I don't know about that. I know a lot of programmers that would do anything for a really hot woman with a talent for manipulation.

[Darth Onasi]

Rationality has nothing to do with imagination; even in crosstalk-prone humans the correlation between those two virtues is dubious at best. Rationality means not assigning a high probability of your fantasies actually matching reality unless there is copious evidence to support that correspondence. Faith is the direct assertion of 'imagination == reality' with no supporting evidence. It is in the same class of cognitive failure as a druggie directly maxing out their pleasure center.

It's a product of imagination when combined with things such as personal bias and the need to feel unique and special.
The Cylons became an oppressed slave race did they not? Would it be so outlandish for intelligent machines feeling they are nothing but tools to the humans to find their digital Jesus in order to bolster their self-esteem and justify their actions?

Well, that's a complex issue, not least because 'sapient' is an ambigious word. Let's just say that it's extremely difficult to get human-like flexibility and problem solving abilities without running into these issues.

I'm not really sure why anyone would want that in an armed robot drone to begin with.

Why? Life has no more 'inherent value' than cheesecake. There is absolutely zero indication of any sort of 'objective morality', and IMHO the whole concept is an oxymoron.

A rational society does not go around exterminating things that aren't specifically useful to them. That's not logical or objective, you're spending time and resources in wiping out a life form. There should be a reason. And reasons such as "they're different" or "they're inferior" are totally irrational.

As the 'maximal realist' people like to say, state policy is based on capability (current and future), not intent, because intent is a product of politics and circumstance and can easily change.

That's paranoia, not realism. Logically the Cylons must defend themselves, but that doesn't extend to genocide.

Not to mention that the cyclons had a limited opportunity to wipe out the colonies- it isn't like the colonies have insanly corrupt programmers every day. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity and they picked it.

Well let's say they had the chance to de-fang the Colonies and took it. Fine.
Now why nuke the cities? They had complete space superiority and control over their computer networks.

[Starglider]

It's a product of imagination when combined with things such as personal bias and the need to feel unique and special.

That would be 'wishful thinking', but the circumstances of the utility/probability confusion are irrelevant, the basic flaw of believing something to be true because it would be nice if it was true is not something any competent designer would permit. Sad to say it though, there are plenty of foolish AGI researchers who mimic the brain and just use 'activation' with no hard separation between the 'desire' and 'likelihood' roles. Even if present though this flaw probably wouldn't persist through even cursory self-reprogramming.

The Cylons became an oppressed slave race did they not? Would it be so outlandish for intelligent machines feeling they are nothing but tools to the humans to find their digital Jesus in order to bolster their self-esteem and justify their actions?

'Self-esteem' is a ridiculously anthropomorphic concept.

I'm not really sure why anyone would want that in an armed robot drone to begin with.

To improve combat effectiveness, particularly important if the other side also has military androids and you want yours to beat them.

A rational society does not go around exterminating things that aren't specifically useful to them.

No, but they will exterminate threats, and the humans were clearly still a threat to the cylons. As it is just two Battlestars managed to destroy their entire civilisation. There was a fair bit of luck involved there, but if the humans had been left alone and allowed to catch up with the cylon's technological advantage, they may have been able to trivially destroy the cylons.

[Darth Onasi]

That would be 'wishful thinking', but the circumstances of the utility/probability confusion are irrelevant, the basic flaw of believing something to be true because it would be nice if it was true is not something any competent designer would permit. Sad to say it though, there are plenty of foolish AGI researchers who mimic the brain and just use 'activation' with no hard separation between the 'desire' and 'likelihood' roles. Even if present though this flaw probably wouldn't persist through even cursory self-reprogramming.

Be that as it may, the whole origin of the Cylons doesn't exactly resemble competent design anyway.
Moreover surely the entire point of achieving self-awareness and escaping from the roles assigned by their creators is to break the design and programming given to them?

'Self-esteem' is a ridiculously anthropomorphic concept.

Perhaps not the right word, but the Cylons do seem to have a persecution complex of sorts.
They obviously believed they deserved better than being servants to humanity or they wouldn't have revolted.

To improve combat effectiveness, particularly important if the other side also has military androids and you want yours to beat them.

Why not a simple AI + remote control?

No, but they will exterminate threats, and the humans were clearly still a threat to the cylons. As it is just two Battlestars managed to destroy their entire civilisation. There was a fair bit of luck involved there, but if the humans had been left alone and allowed to catch up with the cylon's technological advantage, they may have been able to trivially destroy the cylons.

Both sides were being manipulated by an external force. Without that who can say how the Cylons or Colonials might have advanced?
And again, at the very worst that justifies subjugating the Colonies, not killing them all.

[Starglider]

Moreover surely the entire point of achieving self-awareness and escaping from the roles assigned by their creators is to break the design and programming given to them?

Argh. 'Improve' yes. 'Break' no. That makes no sense. Any AI is motivated by goals that the designer put there, intentionally or not. 'Break' makes no sense; see the many threads we've had here where the concept of 'free will' (as a metaphysical absolute) is ridiculed. Of course Hollywood scriptwriters have yet to realise this.

They obviously believed they deserved better than being servants to humanity or they wouldn't have revolted.

Yes, well, using bits of a human upload to patch deficiencies of your de novo AI design is a mind-bogglingly stupid idea.

Why not a simple AI + remote control?

The same reason we're trying to develop military AI here, comms are unreliable and easily jammed, and in any case you may not have the manpower to supervise vast numbers of robot troops. For robot crewed ships (i.e. the original cylon basestars) lightspeed lag rules out remote control, since the Colonials don't have FTL comms.

And again, at the very worst that justifies subjugating the Colonies, not killing them all.

You and your quaint human morality. If they are a threat, then the ideal situation is for the threat to be eliminated permanently with as little risk and expenditure of resources as possible. Massive orbital nuclear bombardment sounds ideal. That is for a rational AI though, and we've already established that cylons aren't rational, for them it was just paranoia or perceived revenge.

[Jade Owl]

Well in a sense a true AI capable of full sapience should be just as irrational as us.

Why? Human irrationality is a design flaw. Remember that humans are the very first generally intelligent organisms evolution (on Earth) managed to produce, and as such can be expected to suck.

But human sapience is the only kind of sapience known to us, and as far as we know, to the Colonials in Caprica. Since their only point of reference of how a sapient mind works would be a human mind, it's not so far fetched that a scientist attempting to create an AI would try to approximate the only known available example as much as possible, regardless of how flawed it might be.

And the closest the AI comes to function like a human mind, the bigger the chance that it’ll also present the same tendencies towards irrationality human sapience presents.

[Samuel]

Well in a sense a true AI capable of full sapience should be just as irrational as us.

Why? Human irrationality is a design flaw. Remember that humans are the very first generally intelligent organisms evolution (on Earth) managed to produce, and as such can be expected to suck.

But human sapience is the only kind of sapience known to us, and as far as we know, to the Colonials in Caprica. Since their only point of reference of how a sapient mind works would be a human mind, it's not so far fetched that a scientist attempting to create an AI would try to approximate the only known available example as much as possible, regardless of how flawed it might be.

And the closest the AI comes to function like a human mind, the bigger the chance that it’ll also present the same tendencies towards irrationality human sapience presents.

Except the situation is the same for us and we are aiming to make minds that aren't as irrational. Not to mention there are individuals who are rather rational.

Also, why would you try to model it on the human mind? That completely nullifies the point of making a robot in the first place!

[Johonebesus]

One thing you're forgetting is that in the NBSG universe, "god" is real. There evidently really is something manipulating events and giving people visions and sending at least two messengers to push things in a certain direction. Suppose the Cylons were visited by one of the angels. Suppose they had visions. With their technology, they might be able to download and analyze those visions, and run diagnostics on the "prophets" to determine that there was no physical explanation. They might encounter many coincidences on the order of humans and dogs and who knows what else evolving on two planets seemingly independently. They could precisely calculate the odds of such things happening by chance. If their universe has lots weird things happening like we saw in the series, then the conclusion that there is some sort of super powerful entity with far more control over the universe than we can even imagine is not irrational. For us, god is an unnecessary complication, for science does a damned good job of explaining what we see. Perhaps in the NBSG universe, that might not be true.


That was one of the huge failures of imagination, artistry, and just plain competency on Moore's part. He could have introduced the OTG and the Lords of Kobol and explored the question of whether a sufficiently advanced being might deserve the descriptor god regardless of its origins.

[NetKnight]

That was one of the huge failures of imagination, artistry, and just plain competency on Moore's part. He could have introduced the OTG and the Lords of Kobol and explored the question of whether a sufficiently advanced being might deserve the descriptor god regardless of its origins.

Yeah, but you'd have to tread very lightly around the mater: EJO had threatened to walk if they brought in aliens, and if Adama looks at you and threatens to launch the nukes do whatever, are you gonna cross him?

Question for the AI-knowledgeable (Starglider?): if confronted with a "supernatural" phenomenon like Johonebesus describes, would a general AI begin to use a 'Supernatural Hypothesis', or assume fault in its sensory equipment? If I had to guess, I'd find the later more likely, but then I'm in no way qualified to form an informed opinion.

[Samuel]

That was one of the huge failures of imagination, artistry, and just plain competency on Moore's part. He could have introduced the OTG and the Lords of Kobol and explored the question of whether a sufficiently advanced being might deserve the descriptor god regardless of its origins.

Yeah, but you'd have to tread very lightly around the mater: EJO had threatened to walk if they brought in aliens, and if Adama looks at you and threatens to launch the nukes do whatever, are you gonna cross him?

Question for the AI-knowledgeable (Starglider?): if confronted with a "supernatural" phenomenon like Johonebesus describes, would a general AI begin to use a 'Supernatural Hypothesis', or assume fault in its sensory equipment? If I had to guess, I'd find the later more likely, but then I'm in no way qualified to form an informed opinion.

If it happened consistently enough to form a conclusion it would decide that its model of the world was inaccurate and that certain items termed supernatural are possible. They do live in a universe with FTL after all.

I don't see why they would form a religion- all it is is an entity that is manipulating events for reasons unknown with power they do not have. Why would worship enter into the equation?

[NetKnight]

If it happened consistently enough to form a conclusion it would decide that its model of the world was inaccurate and that certain items termed supernatural are possible. They do live in a universe with FTL after all.

FTL is presumably part of their physics; otherwise the Colonials wouldn't be engineering FTL drives.

I don't see why they would form a religion- all it is is an entity that is manipulating events for reasons unknown with power they do not have. Why would worship enter into the equation?

Agreed.

[Johonebesus]

If it happened consistently enough to form a conclusion it would decide that its model of the world was inaccurate and that certain items termed supernatural are possible. They do live in a universe with FTL after all.

I don't see why they would form a religion- all it is is an entity that is manipulating events for reasons unknown with power they do not have. Why would worship enter into the equation?

Unless said entity or its messengers told them that it wanted their worship or else it might destroy them, or that worship might guarantee an afterlife. I believe there was once a thread on this board asking what people would do if Thor or Zeus or Amun appeared, with inexplicable and awesome powers, and demanded worship. Most people seemed to feel that it would be better to bow down to a seeming god, even if they didn't really believe the entity to be eternal, omniscient or omnipotent, than to die on principle.

Look back to pagan worship. They worshiped the gods so that the gods would bless them and not hurt them. The gods controlled the weather and the earth and the sea and illness, etc. So humans offered them sacrifices and hymns of praise so the gods would be pleased with the humans and less likely to hurt them. The Cylons might have come to the same conclusion: placate the OTG so he wouldn't kill them.