Morality of Prositution.

[Imperial Overlord]

Data for Germany:
7.511 cases of rape and sexual coercion/assault reported for 2007, Population of 82 million
Source = pdf.

USA:
191,670 cases of rape or sexual assault reported in 2005, population of 306 million. Source.


The perception seems to be correct.

Even accounting for the difference in population size that's an enormous difference.

[Lord of the Abyss]

My mother was raised in Germany, and according to her, at least the perception there is women are much safer from rape. Who's going to risk prison time when a handful of cash can get you the exact same thing?

How many rapes are about a desire for sex versus a desire to humiliate and hurt someone?

How many are just someone who wants sex and doesn't care if they hurt someone to get it ? I know about the "rape is about power" rhetoric from some feminists, but I've never seen evidence that it's anything other than an ideologically driven assertion.

[Darth Wong]

My mother was raised in Germany, and according to her, at least the perception there is women are much safer from rape. Who's going to risk prison time when a handful of cash can get you the exact same thing?

How many rapes are about a desire for sex versus a desire to humiliate and hurt someone?

How many are just someone who wants sex and doesn't care if they hurt someone to get it ? I know about the "rape is about power" rhetoric from some feminists, but I've never seen evidence that it's anything other than an ideologically driven assertion.

Sexual assault often does not involve actual sexual penetration. In those cases, the person clearly is not deriving direct physical pleasure from the act.

[Singular Intellect]

Sexual assault often does not involve actual sexual penetration. In those cases, the person clearly is not deriving direct physical pleasure from the act.

Even if one assumes legalized prostitution had absolutely zero impact on rape statistics, there's a shitload of other beneficial aspects that handily justifies it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it established that sexual activity concerns the brain far more than the physical body? In that sense, penetration isn't the absolute defining attribute of rape?

[Darth Wong]

Sexual assault often does not involve actual sexual penetration. In those cases, the person clearly is not deriving direct physical pleasure from the act.

Even if one assumes legalized prostitution had absolutely zero impact on rape statistics, there's a shitload of other beneficial aspects that handily justifies it.

More importantly, one doesn't need to justify legalizing anything. Instead, one must justify criminalizing it. If someone asks us to explain why murder is illegal, that's easy. Same for theft. If a law is truly justified, then it should not be hard to justify it again if challenged to do so. So why put up prostitution to a different standard where we must justify NOT throwing people in prison for it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it established that sexual activity concerns the brain far more than the physical body? In that sense, penetration isn't the absolute defining attribute of rape?

Definitely. I'm just pointing out that these people aren't necessarily mere pleasure-seekers. Instead, many of them are clearly interested in how the woman feels during this act. Men who like women want the women to feel pleasure, but men who hate women want the women to feel pain. That's why you have sicko porno videos like "throat gaggers", which are clearly geared toward men who actually get off on women choking and gagging.

The thing is, however, that this type of person is not going to magically go away because prostitution is illegal. So the presence of this demographic does not impact on the legalization issue. And I suspect that some of them might find prostitution to be an acceptable release. While a licensed prostitute in a licensed establishment would not allow someone to actually abuse her, she might be willing to play-act, which might be enough to satisfy some of these darker desires that these individuals have, and keep them from stalking women at night.

[Lagmonster]

While a licensed prostitute in a licensed establishment would not allow someone to actually abuse her, she might be willing to play-act, which might be enough to satisfy some of these darker desires that these individuals have, and keep them from stalking women at night.

There are, still, types of rape that this won't cure, such as the aforementioned predatory psychopaths (which tend to rape as part of a premeditated torture/murder), and marital rape in dysfunctional or deteriorating relationships (ie. the assholes who think they can force themselves on their wives/girlfriends even if the women say no, because they consider marriage to be all the consent they need).

I also liked your point earlier about the tie between sexual repression and misogyny; something I'd overlooked. In the context of prostitution, of course, a need to change cultural sexual values in order to stymie some forms of rape goes a step beyond merely legalizing prostitutes and into the realm of making it culturally acceptable to visit one. After all, we legalized gay marriage without actually addressing the cultural problem that created opposition in the first place.

[Singular Intellect]

More importantly, one doesn't need to justify legalizing anything. Instead, one must justify criminalizing it. If someone asks us to explain why murder is illegal, that's easy. Same for theft. If a law is truly justified, then it should not be hard to justify it again if challenged to do so. So why put up prostitution to a different standard where we must justify NOT throwing people in prison for it?

No fucking wonder the religious are the majority that treat prostitution as unacceptable; it's just another variation of their god argument mentality. They demand you disprove their claim with no concept of burden of proof whatsoever. Or understanding of what constitutes evidence, for that matter. And if you don't meet their demands for 'disproving' their claim, their pre conceived conclusion is correct by default.

Definitely. I'm just pointing out that these people aren't necessarily mere pleasure-seekers. Instead, many of them are clearly interested in how the woman feels during this act. Men who like women want the women to feel pleasure, but men who hate women want the women to feel pain. That's why you have sicko porno videos like "throat gaggers", which are clearly geared toward men who actually get off on women choking and gagging.

To be fair though, there are women who enjoy pain and things like being choked and gagged. Sasha Grey is a pornstar whom I know enjoys pain. Hell, one of my sister in law's friends once told a guy she wouldn't mind if some guy choked her during sex.

The thing is, however, that this type of person is not going to magically go away because prostitution is illegal. So the presence of this demographic does not impact on the legalization issue. And I suspect that some of them might find prostitution to be an acceptable release. While a licensed prostitute in a licensed establishment would not allow someone to actually abuse her, she might be willing to play-act, which might be enough to satisfy some of these darker desires that these individuals have, and keep them from stalking women at night.

Even if it's a small positive impact, it only strengthens the case of overall positive aspects of legalizing the activity.

Thanks for pointing out the need of justifying criminalizing behavior (like prostitution) rather than simply starting with that premise. While I never agreed with the suggestion of it being a crime, I completely missed the burden of proof aspect.

[Darth Wong]

You're welcome. The thing these idiots often forget is that throwing someone in prison is harmful to that person (yes, it's sad that you actually have to point this out), so harm is being inflicted upon someone, which is a negative. That's the indisputably negative aspect of criminalizing prostitution which throws the burden of proof onto the person who would criminalize it. He must justify throwing people in prison.

[ray245]

Sadly, even if legalising prostitution make sense, I doubt that it can be legalise in the US.

[Samuel]

Sadly, even if legalising prostitution make sense, I doubt that it can be legalized in the US.

I think Nevada managed to get started along that path. When people's desire to pay less taxes exceeds their desire to run others lives, we will get them to change the laws.

[ray245]

Sadly, even if legalising prostitution make sense, I doubt that it can be legalized in the US.

I think Nevada managed to get started along that path. When people's desire to pay less taxes exceeds their desire to run others lives, we will get them to change the laws.

However, what about the red and southern states? I mean there is a low chance such a law will pass through the Senate if the majority of the senators and congressmen are conservative by nature.

Although I may be wrong about the democrats stance in regards to prostitution.