UAE Royal Sheikh is a sadistic fuck

[Big Orange]

OK, maybe denying long past atrocities is not as immediately detrimental as routine torture for petty slights, but what of Turkey's ongoing oppression of the Kurds, where naked military force is sometimes ruthlessly applied? And while the UAE is certainly not my first choice for a visit, I'd rather go to there instead of going to Pakistan where it has halfway devolved into Afghanistan MK II.

But there is no doubt that there is something deeply sleazy and depraved about the oil rich Arab states. Even the seemingly innocuous Kuwait has draconian secret police and institutionally sanctioned torture.

[Big Phil]

OK, maybe denying long past atrocities is not as immediately detrimental as routine torture for petty slights, but what of Turkey's ongoing oppression of the Kurds, where naked military force is sometimes ruthlessly applied? And while the UAE is certainly not my first choice for a visit, I'd rather go to there instead of going to Pakistan where it has halfway devolved into Afghanistan MK II.

But there is no doubt that there is something deeply sleazy and depraved about the oil rich Arab states. Even the seemingly innocuous Kuwait has draconian secret police and institutionally sanctioned torture.

What the fuck does the Turks treatment of the Armenians or the Kurds have to do with this thread? If you want to talk about Turkish human rights violations, go start another thread and do it there.

[Samuel]

OK, maybe denying long past atrocities is not as immediately detrimental as routine torture for petty slights, but what of Turkey's ongoing oppression of the Kurds, where naked military force is sometimes ruthlessly applied? And while the UAE is certainly not my first choice for a visit, I'd rather go to there instead of going to Pakistan where it has halfway devolved into Afghanistan MK II.

But there is no doubt that there is something deeply sleazy and depraved about the oil rich Arab states. Even the seemingly innocuous Kuwait has draconian secret police and institutionally sanctioned torture.

The first problem is about equivalent to Japan's policy- assholish, but not exactly an oppressive act (insulting Turkishness laws would fall into that category). The second is due to the fact they are afraid that the Kurds will break off and form their own state- which given Iraq isn't a crazy fear.

[Darth Wong]

OK, maybe denying long past atrocities is not as immediately detrimental as routine torture for petty slights, but what of Turkey's ongoing oppression of the Kurds, where naked military force is sometimes ruthlessly applied? And while the UAE is certainly not my first choice for a visit, I'd rather go to there instead of going to Pakistan where it has halfway devolved into Afghanistan MK II.

But there is no doubt that there is something deeply sleazy and depraved about the oil rich Arab states. Even the seemingly innocuous Kuwait has draconian secret police and institutionally sanctioned torture.

What the fuck does the Turks treatment of the Armenians or the Kurds have to do with this thread? If you want to talk about Turkish human rights violations, go start another thread and do it there.

Turkey is being discussed in this thread because certain people completely misunderstood a point I made earlier. People were saying they were shocked by the story in the OP, and I said that I was not shocked, because Islamic nations are barbaric in general. Someone responded that the UAE was one of the more "enlightened" Islamic states, to which I pointed out that Turkey, possibly the most enlightened Islamic state, still routinely employs brutality and inhumane methods in its prisons.

Here's where the thread went off the rails: the point I was making was that the entire spectrum of enlightenment among Islamic countries is shifted far away from our spectrum of enlightenment. But instead, certain people thought I was trying to start some kind of "which one is worse" contest between Turkey and the UAE.

[Big Orange]

I concede that the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are worse than Turkey since their political and social systems are more primitive in general. They are aggressive tribal clans that were given far more money than they know what do with and lack cultural maturity, so are more inclined to irrational acts of sadism on a whim. I apologise for stupidly digressing, Wong.

But with Turkey, Israel, Egypt, and Iran, while those countries are quite different to the UAE and not necessarily worse, they're other examples of ME fascism and why the recent UN human rights conference descended into a farce.

[Guardsman Bass]

This wasn't really shocking, and while Gerald's article was . . . enlightening, it wasn't really shocking either. Pretty much all the oil-rich Arab countries do that type of stuff, more or less importing all the hired help (usually from poor-ass muslim nations like Bangladesh, but also from other areas), while many of the locals sit around on their asses drinking coffee. Hell, there was an article in the New York Times about how Iraq was starting to bring in some foreign workers to do menial jobs that the Iraqis wouldn't touch, even while the unemployment rate is, what, 40-50%? It's not like the Iraqi government is subsidizing every Iraqi, either, in the way the Kuwait government does/did.

[Sarevok]

I think the distinction that need to be made between UAE and rest like Turkey is that many muslim countries are typical malfunctioning democracies. They have problems with literacy, economy, keeping people fed etc. In Turkeys they solved these but they still have ways to go in reforming. But UAE ? They got no excuse. They are filthy rich, richer then westerners. Yet they live like medieval nobility.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I think the distinction that need to be made between UAE and rest like Turkey is that many muslim countries are typical malfunctioning democracies. They have problems with literacy, economy, keeping people fed etc. In Turkeys they solved these but they still have ways to go in reforming. But UAE ? They got no excuse. They are filthy rich, richer then westerners. Yet they live like medieval nobility.

Well, the thing about the UAE is that it is medieval nobility. The UAE doesn't have quite a central government, and the Sheiks take turns to be leaders if I recall. So it is an aristocracy that runs the country.

[Big Orange]

These Arab aristocrats and royals were robbed of their chance to socially progress and politically reform when they could write their own pay checks, it is pretty much why many musicians from deprived backgrounds spectacularily go off the rails, and why the gold rich Spanish Empire declined relatively quickly while the gold strapped British Empire florished.

[Thanas]

and why the gold rich Spanish Empire declined relatively quickly while the gold strapped British Empire florished.

Care to back that point up?

[Adrian Laguna]

Turkey officially deny the violent displacement and genocide of the Armenians.

For the record, they don't the deny the violent relocation of the Armenian population. They dispute the numbers involved and deny that it constituted a genocide

the gold rich Spanish Empire declined relatively quickly while the gold strapped British Empire florished.

You fail at history. The Spanish Empire got a good century and a half of dominance over Europe, from the beginning of the 16th century to half-way down the 17th, before being upstaged by the French. Spain remained a major power until the Napoleonic Wars. The British, for their part, became dominant at the start of 19th century, and remained so until the early 20th, or for about a century and a quarter.

[Sarevok]

Getting back on topic who here is going to reconsider flying Emirates like Thanas in the OP ? These uppity nobles need to be taught their money, pomp and glitz can buy many things but not respect. It may not be possible to make a difference but knowing you are not doing your part making the paradise like lives of these assholes even better is satisfying in it's own way.

[Samuel]

Getting back on topic who here is going to reconsider flying Emirates like Thanas in the OP ? These uppity nobles need to be taught their money, pomp and glitz can buy many things but not respect. It may not be possible to make a difference but knowing you are not doing your part making the paradise like lives of these assholes even better is satisfying in it's own way.

How about not buying oil? I'm pretty sure that only Dubai is partly off oil revenues.

[Julhelm]

It's telling how several of the expats in the article are fully aware of how the whole society is built on slavery yet act as that's the way it should be. Disgusting.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's telling how several of the expats in the article are fully aware of how the whole society is built on slavery yet act as that's the way it should be. Disgusting.

Lots of expats in many countries are generally like mercenaries; they just take the money and are happy with it.

[Vendetta]

Turkey is vastly different from the UAE and I'd doubt a private citizen could get the police to help them torture someone over a few scraps of grain.

It's worth remembering that this isn't just a "private citizen", it's someone who is directly related to probably half of the government. The government of the UAE is basically a ruling family.

[Broomstick]

It's telling how several of the expats in the article are fully aware of how the whole society is built on slavery yet act as that's the way it should be. Disgusting.

It's easy to like slavery when you're the master.

[Big Orange]

and why the gold rich Spanish Empire declined relatively quickly while the gold strapped British Empire florished.

Care to back that point up?

OK, I'll clarify and expand.

I'm not talking about the duration of Spain's ostensive military might and territorial holdings, but how a gold/silver/bronze dependent Spain started to economically flag in comparison to France, Holland, Britain, and America in recent centuries in terms of economic and technological innovations (like say the Industrial Revolution). And in this online essay there are some reasonable similarities Imperial Spain had to the oil rich Arab fiefdoms:

Investment is needed for economic development, but there was hardly any incentive to invest in early modern Spain. Those who had money would rather put it into obtaining a noble title than business because of the heavy taxation of commoners.41. They did not become a productive bourgeoisie, but rather part of an economically inefficient aristocracy.42 This was a society polarized into rich and poor, with no significant middle class to develop a capitalist economy.43 The investment there was did not produce economic growth, since it was directed into personal loans and government bonds rather than agriculture, industry, or trade.44

Another problematic aspect of Spain as an economic environment was its culture.45 It would perhaps be going too far to argue that the lack of a Protestant work ethic as formulated by Max Weber was the cause of Spain's inability to convert its vast wealth into economic growth. However, it seems obvious that the cultural climate was a hindrance on economic development. Spanish culture in the period was contemptuous of manual labour. It was considered dishonourable. Vicens Vives illustrates this well by quoting from the Lazarillo de Tormes: "...any no-good wretch would die of hunger before he would take up a trade."46 A further quote, from the arbitrista Alfonso Núñez de Castro, illustrates the Spanish attitude accurately:

Let London manufacture those fine fabrics of hers... Holland her chambrays ... the Indies their beaver and vicuña ... so long as our capital can enjoy them; the only thing it proves is that all nations train journeymen for Madrid, and that Madrid is the queen of Parliaments, for all the world serves her and she serves nobody.47

In other words, it was thought that Spain could enjoy the products of other countries without producing anything itself. This was increasingly the reality, since Spanish industry declined in the early seventeenth century. However, as we have seen, Spain became a dependent country. De Castro's assertion was true, but not in the way he assumed. I think it is clear that though the ultimate causes for Spanish decline lie elsewhere, the culture of early modern Spain was a factor in its economic malaise.

There are also some fair similarities to Spain's military overstretch and economic outsourcing in the 16th century to the United States of America in the last thirty years.

[Thanas]

You still have to prove several things to me:

- that the Spanish empire was gold rich
- that they ergo had more money to spent than other countries (note - this will obviously have to take in the enormous expenditures)
- that this spending contributed more to the decline than the aforementioned enormous expenditures in defending the Spanish territories.
- Contrast that with England and show me how lack of gold can be directly attributed to the rise of industrialism.

I would have to take issues with the article as well - for example, the principal source of the author describes "the sea" as an unproductive business, which is simply ludicrous. He also describes the War of Spanish succession as indicative of Spanish weakness (the major example seems to be that nations intervened and Spain had relied on French troops - well, newsflash, it was a civil war and the French were allies), disregarding the resurgence of Spain in the middle of the eighteenth century.

Finally, Spanish industry was competitive for over two centuries and it still was able to compete with Britain - for example, several experts on shipbuilding went over from Britain to Spain, because the Spanish offered higher wages.

[Gil Hamilton]

As Adrian pointed out, Spain had an enormous empire and damn near rules the world for a hundred and fifty years.

In my opinion, what actually did the Spanish in was they had an unfortunate run of useless, inbred stupid monarchs, and one of them actually BELIEVED Napolean that he was just marching through Spain to get to Portugal. This lead to the other part of the Peninsular War, where Britain came to Spain's rescue, helped their partisans drive out the French Grand Armee, and on their way out torched every bit of industry Spain had which the French missed in order to eliminate the Spanish as a competing power.

This, of course, should probably be split.

[Stargate Nerd]

As Adrian pointed out, Spain had an enormous empire and damn near rules the world for a hundred and fifty years.

Wasn't the Spanish Empire rivaled or matched by the Ottoman Empire in the 15th/16th centuries when Spain was at it's strongest?

[Sidewinder]

As for Islamic nations being barbaric. I'd wager that the sheikdoms, and fiefdoms and kingdoms like UAE, Jordan, Saudi Arabia are the worst. And that although countries like Egypt, Syria, Libya, Pakistan etc. are hardly saints.

I find it surprising the rulers of these nations would bend over and attempt to appease Wahhabists instead of creating or promoting an Islamic sect more favorable to themselves, i.e., one whose mullahs say, "It's quite all right to do as the [insert non-Muslim nationality]s do when we're in [insert non-Muslim nation]," and throwing those who say otherwise (i.e., the Wahhabists) in prison. With the obvious exception of Pakistan, do the government leaders of Muslim nations have such little control over their military, especially considering government and military leaders are usually one and the same in a Fascist state?

[Thanas]

As Adrian pointed out, Spain had an enormous empire and damn near rules the world for a hundred and fifty years.

Wasn't the Spanish Empire rivaled or matched by the Ottoman Empire in the 15th/16th centuries when Spain was at it's strongest?

No.

[LaCroix]

It hit the german news yesterday. Public outcry followed. The best statement was that it's actually legal for the kins family in SA to turture their people.

[The Yosemite Bear]

If these are the "Good Guys" I would hate to meet the bad guys....