Goa'uld 'villain decay' and how to deal with it

[Juubi Karakuchi]

One of the primary ways the Gou'ald were comprehensibly belittled as a superpower who dominated the Milky Way for millennia is that they were outmatched by the Tollans (who for some reason stayed within the confines of a solar system), the mighty Asgard, and practically unstoppable Replicators. It would've made more sense in making the Tollans inferior to the Gou'ald, but still much more advanced than Earth, while the Gou'ald and Asgard would be roughly equivalent to each other in most areas (although the Asgard could still have notably superior, but the Gou'ald have a greater industrial capacity and a better grasp military strategy to close technological gap).

Regarding the Tollan, they don't need to be vastly superior or inferior, merely powerful enough. It would be sufficient for their defences to be so powerful that, while a System Lord could probably overwhelm them, the cost of doing so would be prohibitive. Your point regarding the Asgard and Goa'uld having differing strengths is reasonable. The Replicators were entertaining originally, but their constant re-use annoyed me after a while.

And the Gou'ald basing their power base on salvaged Ancient technology just makes them ignorant plagiarists. And why make the Ancients more or less human? Could the Replicators be revealed as the greatly degenerated descendents of the Ancients instead of the Gou'ald?

Do bear in mind the Asgard got their tech from the Ancients also. Not only this, but the Ancients seem to have been a tad untidy in terms of leaving their technology lying around after they ascended. As such, the Goa'uld apparently found this tech early in their development, thus had little reason to invent their own. A fair point about the Ancients being human. The humanocentrism was something I found particularly objectionable.

[Darth Onasi]

The Asgard didn't get their tech from the Ancients, aside from stargates.But then even the Tollan/Naks could build those.
Hell the Asgard have stuff the Ancients don't, like ringless teleporters.

[Big Orange]

OK, I'll clarify and make a ghetto edit:

Asgard warships would have overall the best FTL out of the regular Stargate powers, with the most advanced sensors, weapons, and teleportation suites onboard, while their hulls are very aesthetically pleasing. However they are too much geared towards being aesthetically pleasing and are therefore overall less pragmatic than the generally more rugged Gou'ald warships. Gou'ald warships are strategically slower but are much more utilitarian and logically designed for space combat, they have less weak points and less over designed (unlike the Asgard craft), and are also easier to mass produce and maintain. An Asgard warship can often outmanoeuvre and outfight a Gou'ald warship one-to-one, depending on the crew and luck, but they can easily get swamped and outfought by Gou'ald packs.

And to make the Tollans more credible is to make them a space faring people with a medium sized space empire encompassing fifty to a hundred solar systems, perhaps comparable to the territory of a run of the mill System Lord and a good explanation for why they haven't been conquered before 500 BC.

The Ancients could be completely non-human if they're so implacably ancient and came from far beyond the confines of the Milky Way.

[Darth Yoshi]

So, basically make the Tollan Aschen, but not scheming bastards?

[Big Orange]

So, basically make the Tollan Aschen, but not scheming bastards?

On second thoughts, why not make the Tollan and Aschen essentially one and the same, and while the Tollan were reasonably well used I was disappointed we did not hear from the Aschen again in the series (and they would've made better post-Gou'ald baddies, unlike the knock off Ori).

[Darth Nostril]

I was disappointed we did not hear from the Aschen again in the series

Well the first gate address on the list that SG-1 gave them was the one that led into a blackhole.
Not entirely surprising we never heard from them again.

[avatarxprime]

I was disappointed we did not hear from the Aschen again in the series

Well the first gate address on the list that SG-1 gave them was the one that led into a blackhole.
Not entirely surprising we never heard from them again.

So?

The Aschen were significantly more advanced than Earth humans. Now admittedly they didn't know much about the gates, but if Sam can figure out the bomb trick then the Aschen should be capable of reaching that solution as well. Also if all else fails just pick up the gate early on and dump it somewhere, maybe even into another blackhole. Even if the Aschen were not capable of dealing with the blackhole problem, they are a stellar civilization with multiple planets. So they lost 1 planet and its gate, they would still be around and I imagine quite pissed off at Earth.

[Darth Nostril]

if Sam can figure out the bomb trick then the Aschen should be capable of reaching that solution as well.

With their biological based weaponry and total lack of gate exploration and knowledge?

[avatarxprime]

if Sam can figure out the bomb trick then the Aschen should be capable of reaching that solution as well.

With their biological based weaponry and total lack of gate exploration and knowledge?

Because obviously the Aschen are one-trick ponies who only use bio-weapons and those weapons obviously wrecked the Volia city we see Daniel and Teal'C explore in 2001. In 2010 we see an Aschen energy weapon with the defense drones, they obviously have a good grasp on matter and energy given their teleportation technology. Therefore it is reasonable to assume they have energy weapons, but obviously they prefer their bio-weapons since it leaves everything else unharmed.

As far as gate knowledge goes, I said they were still just learning. However, they were just fine with using the gates on the worlds they conquered as that's how the harvesters worked. Harvesters were even capable of remote dialing a gate, something Earth still isn't capable of. They simply did not know additional gate addresses, which is what they wanted from Earth.

Note: My memory of 2001 isn't so great and facts about Harvesters came from Gateworld.

[Darth Nostril]

My point being that after centuries of exploiting the local systems the Aschen still only had rudimentary knowledge of the gate system, they did not have Earths experience with them, and after centuries of slow manipulation they would be ill prepared for the immediate action required to deal with the blackhole they opened a gate into (implied at the end of the episode with O'Neils smugness)

Because obviously the Aschen are one-trick ponies who only use bio-weapons and those weapons obviously wrecked the Volia city we see Daniel and Teal'C explore in 2001.

The Aschen sterilised the Volia under the guise of helping them, the Volians destroyed their own city when they rioted after discovering the truth about the Aschen deception.


*Note* I have the ten season dvd boxset of SG-1, I can pull up the exact episode if your memory is letting you down.

[avatarxprime]

My point being that after centuries of exploiting the local systems the Aschen still only had rudimentary knowledge of the gate system, they did not have Earths experience with them, and after centuries of slow manipulation they would be ill prepared for the immediate action required to deal with the blackhole they opened a gate into (implied at the end of the episode with O'Neils smugness)

Just what did the Aschen say about their knowledge of the gates? They obviously understand well enough to have created a remote dialing procedure and understand the need for addresses since there are more possible addresses then gates. I mean Earth tried doing the random dialing and that did not end well. The Aschen are not explorers (stated by the characters) and are simply slowly expanding their sphere of power, something their spaceships have allowed them to do comfortably. They wouldn't care to keep trying addresses and they never got lucky like Earth did with the Abydos tomb of addresses.

As far as quick action goes, they would probably figure out that the blackhole's effects are translating through the wormhole fast enough and can take action from there. Remember they have anti-grav tech and spaceships. They can always just strap the gate to something and get rid of it, an option the SGC did not have. If they also try to blow the gate up they might end up causing the wormhole to jump gates anyway since the bomb trick is simply about the application of sufficient energy to make that happen. The Aschen have options to save their planet.

Because obviously the Aschen are one-trick ponies who only use bio-weapons and those weapons obviously wrecked the Volia city we see Daniel and Teal'C explore in 2001.

The Aschen sterilised the Volia under the guise of helping them, the Volians destroyed their own city when they rioted after discovering the truth about the Aschen deception.

Was that specifically stated in the dialogue, as I said before I don't remember. If so I concede the point.

[Big Orange]

Considering how much milage there was in the Aschen and Tollan, it was pretty crass of the writing staff to do away with these two races after a handful of episodes, while the storyline with increasingly cardboard cutout Gou'ald warlords (Ba'al excepted) went on and on, going stale after half a decade

And why were the Ori dreamt up in the first place? Why were so much like the Gou'ald in almost evey way culturally, even their human minions were virtual carbon copies of the more iconic Jaffa!

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Considering how much milage there was in the Aschen and Tollan, it was pretty crass of the writing staff to do away with these two races after a handful of episodes, while the storyline with increasingly cardboard cutout Gou'ald warlords (Ba'al excepted) went on and on, going stale after half a decade

And why were the Ori dreamt up in the first place? Why were so much like the Gou'ald in almost evey way culturally, even their human minions were virtual carbon copies of the more iconic Jaffa!

There were so many concepts they could have developed for these two. The Aschen have a thing for bioweapons and a tendency to avoid actual combat, two concepts that can be built on. A planet overrun with zombies Left-4-Dead style? Supersoldier experiments? So many possibilities.

As for the Ori, they seem to have been an attempt to revitalize SG-1, creating an enemy with a similar feel to the Goa'uld, but with extra 'meh'. They look pretty much the same, but their ships are more powerful, and they bring in something that should have been part of the Goa'uld concept: how does one define a god? You can't just shout "the Ori aren't really gods! They're imposters!", because they are convincingly godlike (ie, the Priors have supernatural powers not based on technology, and can cause you to spontaneously combust for heresy).

[Darth Nostril]

Because obviously the Aschen are one-trick ponies who only use bio-weapons and those weapons obviously wrecked the Volia city we see Daniel and Teal'C explore in 2001.

The Aschen sterilised the Volia under the guise of helping them, the Volians destroyed their own city when they rioted after discovering the truth about the Aschen deception.

Was that specifically stated in the dialogue, as I said before I don't remember. If so I concede the point.

Jackson & Teal'c were exploring the buried city and found the archives of the news service of the Volians, a mysterious plague had ravaged the Volian populace, the Aschen showed up and offered a vaccine for the plague.
The last edition of the newspaper had a headline only partially translated by Jackson "The vaccine causes *indecipherable*"
The picture on that edition showed rioting mobs.
Daniel wrote the word out and asked the ambassador to ask the Aschen what it meant during the process of negotiations.
The Aschen replied the word meant sterility.
All the pieces fell into place & the ambassador sacrificed his life so that Sam could get back and warn earth.

[avatarxprime]

Jackson & Teal'c were exploring the buried city and found the archives of the news service of the Volians, a mysterious plague had ravaged the Volian populace, the Aschen showed up and offered a vaccine for the plague.
The last edition of the newspaper had a headline only partially translated by Jackson "The vaccine causes *indecipherable*"
The picture on that edition showed rioting mobs.
Daniel wrote the word out and asked the ambassador to ask the Aschen what it meant during the process of negotiations.
The Aschen replied the word meant sterility.
All the pieces fell into place & the ambassador sacrificed his life so that Sam could get back and warn earth.

I know the Aschen were responsible for the sterilization, I was referring to the level of destruction. Was there anything specific about that? Given the farmland cover-up I was thinking it's possible that the Aschen were responsible for some of that destruction to make way for the construction of the farmland. I was just wondering if there was any on screen evidence concerning that.

[JME2]

...and they bring in something that should have been part of the Goa'uld concept: how does one define a god? You can't just shout "the Ori aren't really gods! They're imposters!", because they are convincingly godlike (ie, the Priors have supernatural powers not based on technology, and can cause you to spontaneously combust for heresy).

I thought that was an intriguing concept and a fun play on SG-1's messages/themes from the early years. It had a great deal of potential for the Ori themselves and in adding complexity to the Ancients' counterparts, but it ended up getting screwed by the "The Fourth Horseman" and the revelation that the Ori are life-sucking vampires.

[Themightytom]

...and they bring in something that should have been part of the Goa'uld concept: how does one define a god? You can't just shout "the Ori aren't really gods! They're imposters!", because they are convincingly godlike (ie, the Priors have supernatural powers not based on technology, and can cause you to spontaneously combust for heresy).

I thought that was an intriguing concept and a fun play on SG-1's messages/themes from the early years. It had a great deal of potential for the Ori themselves and in adding complexity to the Ancients' counterparts, but it ended up getting screwed by the "The Fourth Horseman" and the revelation that the Ori are life-sucking vampires.

No no no the Wraith were the vampires! You can tell by their pointy teeth pale skin and gothic architecture

[JME2]

...and they bring in something that should have been part of the Goa'uld concept: how does one define a god? You can't just shout "the Ori aren't really gods! They're imposters!", because they are convincingly godlike (ie, the Priors have supernatural powers not based on technology, and can cause you to spontaneously combust for heresy).

I thought that was an intriguing concept and a fun play on SG-1's messages/themes from the early years. It had a great deal of potential for the Ori themselves and in adding complexity to the Ancients' counterparts, but it ended up getting screwed by the "The Fourth Horseman" and the revelation that the Ori are life-sucking vampires.

No no no the Wraith were the vampires! You can tell by their pointy teeth pale skin and gothic architecture

Heh; I supposed I walked right into that one...

[Themightytom]

Heh; I supposed I walked right into that one...

it could ahve happened to anyone, they both suck :-p

[JME2]

Heh; I supposed I walked right into that one...

it could ahve happened to anyone, they both suck :-p

* Groans *

[Darth Nostril]

I know the Aschen were responsible for the sterilization, I was referring to the level of destruction. Was there anything specific about that? Given the farmland cover-up I was thinking it's possible that the Aschen were responsible for some of that destruction to make way for the construction of the farmland. I was just wondering if there was any on screen evidence concerning that.

Just rewatched the 2001 episode, there is nothing in there concerning the destruction of the Volian city, it's all just left up in the air.
Sorry.

[Darth Nostril]

You know the Aschen would actually work as a villain - they dialled in to the black hole gate, forced to throw the gate away to save their planet, after years of rebuilding the damage done and creating an FTL drive they found another gate and now they're back.

Pissed off and looking for revenge.

[JME2]

You know the Aschen would actually work as a villain - they dialled in to the black hole gate, forced to throw the gate away to save their planet, after years of rebuilding the damage done and creating an FTL drive they found another gate and now they're back.

Pissed off and looking for revenge.

That could work. Does anyone think there's a possibility that we might see them show up at any point during SGU?

[avatarxprime]

I know the Aschen were responsible for the sterilization, I was referring to the level of destruction. Was there anything specific about that? Given the farmland cover-up I was thinking it's possible that the Aschen were responsible for some of that destruction to make way for the construction of the farmland. I was just wondering if there was any on screen evidence concerning that.

Just rewatched the 2001 episode, there is nothing in there concerning the destruction of the Volian city, it's all just left up in the air.
Sorry.

No need to say sorry, it's not like you're a writer for Stargate, but I do appreciate you checking.

You know the Aschen would actually work as a villain - they dialled in to the black hole gate, forced to throw the gate away to save their planet, after years of rebuilding the damage done and creating an FTL drive they found another gate and now they're back.

Pissed off and looking for revenge.

That could work. Does anyone think there's a possibility that we might see them show up at any point during SGU?

As much as I would like to see the Aschen back, they really aren't in a position to threaten Earth anymore given Earth's advances since then. For some reason I think those aliens we got introduced to in Atlantis when the Daedalus was dimension jumping will be the SGU villians.

[JME2]

For some reason I think those aliens we got introduced to in Atlantis when the Daedalus was dimension jumping will be the SGU villians.

Yeah, or perhaps even the Lost Asgard Tribe -- provided that doesn't get revisited/wrapped up by the Atlantis DTV.