Bethesda outsourcing Fallout already

[Eleas]

I don't give a flying fuck about Obsidian's programming skills.

Then it seems you and the managers of that company are of like minds.

If your only argument against a game is the lead developers "technical ineptitude", then I don't think we have anything to talk about. If you wrote a rant on NWN2, please post it here, so I can read and comment on it.

It was not my only argument by any means. I began with the engine because it sets the mood, or, if you prefer, paves the way, for the rest of the experience. But fair enough, I'll post it as soon as it's done, albeit in another thread. We're already sufficiently OT here.

@Eleas: I have to acknowledge that NWN2's is a bit clumsy from a technical standpoint. But it's not enough to call it "a farce of a game". Take away a point or two, but a farce? C'mon now.

When I see another game that forces me to spend more time actively working against the engine than actually playing, rest assured I will mock that game as thoroughly as I do this one.

Of course, you seem to be under the misapprehension that my disdain for that game was limited to its technical execution. Nothing could be farther from the truth; I simply deigned to focus on the show-stopper, i.e. that I wasn't playing the game so much as constantly flogging it into obedience. But the in many cases ludicrous writing, anemic villains, grotesque and garish design, and deeply uncompelling and unsympathetic characters, well, they didn't entirely ease my frustration with the engine, pathfinding, AI and character model problems.

But then again, just like KOTOR 2 rode in on the coattails of its predecessors (and, let's face it, did make a number of daring attempts at originality in the process) NWN2 cashes in on the D&D fanboys. And the parallels don't end there, because NWN2 does make a number of attempts at furthering concepts that don't suck. As an idea and in execution, the siege battle and the crossroad keep were both very compelling, and at that point in the game, I began to feel that I was just, you know, having fun. Similarly, there were points in Ammon Jerro's keep where they shook things up a bit and I began to feel that hey, maybe Obsidian does know how to craft mood and atmosphere (to do it in spite of the yapping cliché Jerro has to be counted as impressive).

That is, I think, the root of my problem with NWN2. I want to like it. I'm just not far enough into the battered wife mindset to convince myself it's worthwhile.

[Tolya]

Things are copied and re-used all the time. Would you call Harry Potter a farce that way?

If the author of Harry Potter writes a second series in which she reuses the exact same character arcs, yes, I will call the resulting creation a farce.[/quote]

So you can start right now, considering how HP is a ripoff from Star Wars.

Hell, you can even say that John Williams, creator of the music for Star Wars, ripped off Gustav Holst' "Planets".

[Joviwan]

Things are copied and re-used all the time. Would you call Harry Potter a farce that way?

If the author of Harry Potter writes a second series in which she reuses the exact same character arcs, yes, I will call the resulting creation a farce.

So you can start right now, considering how HP is a ripoff from Star Wars.

Hell, you can even say that John Williams, creator of the music for Star Wars, ripped off Gustav Holst' "Planets".

Not that I'm picking sides or anything, but you're not actually addressing his quote. He pretty clearly said "the author of harry potter."

[Tolya]

Not that I'm picking sides or anything, but you're not actually addressing his quote. He pretty clearly said "the author of harry potter."

So if someone is ripping off someone's else ideas, than it's ok? It's just bad to recycle the same idea by the same person? What world do you live in exactly?

HP is an obvious SW ripoff. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying the movies & the books. Not that I think HP is in any way awesome, mind you.

[Thanas]

Not that I'm picking sides or anything, but you're not actually addressing his quote. He pretty clearly said "the author of harry potter."

So if someone is ripping off someone's else ideas, than it's ok? It's just bad to recycle the same idea by the same person? What world do you live in exactly?

Yes. Every idea is copied from someone else or is based on an earlier story. However, if the same author releases the same product under a different label, it is intellectual laziness.

[Tolya]

Yes. Every idea is copied from someone else or is based on an earlier story. However, if the same author releases the same product under a different label, it is intellectual laziness.

Oh, so taking the idea from someone else is not intellectual laziness?

[Eleas]

Yes. Every idea is copied from someone else or is based on an earlier story. However, if the same author releases the same product under a different label, it is intellectual laziness.

Oh, so taking the idea from someone else is not intellectual laziness?

It would only be 'lazy' in the sense that a scientist refusing to begin from neolithic first causes would be considered 'lazy'. Very few truly original ideas, if any, exist in entertainment media today, but that does not mean they are necessarily derivative. To be inspired by something is often to take that idea and then refashion it, which is not the same as plagiarism.

[Thanas]

Yes. Every idea is copied from someone else or is based on an earlier story. However, if the same author releases the same product under a different label, it is intellectual laziness.

Oh, so taking the idea from someone else is not intellectual laziness?

If it is copied word for word, there is another definition of it: Plagiarism.

If you have certain general plot elements, then you cannot avoid certain overlaps.

Seriously, how you cannot notice the difference is pretty baffling to me.

[Tolya]

Let me get this straight: you guys think it is bad when someone re-uses his own idea, but do not see anything bad if it is copied by another person? Sheesh, talk about hypocrisy and double standards.

My point is, things are copied and re-used all the time. If you think NWN2 sucks just because Obsidan recycled some of the ideas from Kotor 2, then to be consistent, you would have to call the author of Harry Potter a hack.

I won't blame you if you do, that would be an honest thing to do. I don't think it is particularly bad that Harry's middle name is Luke or if Bishop is a less stuck up version of Canderous "Mandalore" Ordo.

For that matter, character arcs of NWN2 fits better for KOTOR1 (which was done by Bioware) - for example Neeshka/Khelgar and Mission/Zaalbar or Casimir and Onasi. And Bioware and Obsidiana are two different companies, so what's wrong?

[Thanas]

Let me get this straight: you guys think it is bad when someone re-uses his own idea, but do not see anything bad if it is copied by another person? Sheesh, talk about hypocrisy and double standards.

Do you habitually fail at reading comprehension?

[Eleas]

Let me get this straight: you guys think it is bad when someone re-uses his own idea, but do not see anything bad if it is copied by another person? Sheesh, talk about hypocrisy and double standards.

I'm curious - are you brazenly lying about what I wrote or do you simply not bother to do more than skim the posts? Of course, the impression I get from the rest of your post is that you're sufficiently slow enough to be unable to differentiate between two perfectly isolated concepts. Here, let me help you with that.

Inspired is not the same as copied. The two words are not synonyms. They do not mean the same thing.

Don't worry if you didn't get it this time either. If necessary, I will prepare subsequent teaching aids using crayons.

If you think NWN2 sucks just because Obsidan recycled some of the ideas from Kotor 2, then to be consistent, you would have to call the author of Harry Potter a hack.

I see I was being overly kind earlier. Mere slowness does not excuse such utter twaddle. None of us said that plot points or ideas for KOTOR 2 were the reasons NWN 2 sucked. It sucks because there is a vast and tragic disparity between the flaws and merits of the game, in favour of the former.

I won't blame you if you do, that would be an honest thing to do. I don't think it is particularly bad that Harry's middle name is Luke or if Bishop is a less stuck up version of Canderous "Mandalore" Ordo.

For that matter, character arcs of NWN2 fits better for KOTOR1 (which was done by Bioware) - for example Neeshka/Khelgar and Mission/Zaalbar or Casimir and Onasi. And Bioware and Obsidiana are two different companies, so what's wrong?

What's wrong is that NWN 2 is a bad game, without the redeeming qualities KOTOR 1 or even to a lesser extent KOTOR 2 had. This has nothing to do with your irrelevant blathering about inspiration being plagiarism, and all with the fact that Bioware are reasonably good at telling stories, and Obsidian struggle with that concept. Occasionally, in games like KOTOR 2, they largely manage to hit the right note; other times (NWN 2, for instance), they founder and flail about.

[Tolya]

Geez, just how exactly dense are you?

None of us said that plot points or ideas for KOTOR 2 were the reasons NWN 2 sucked.

Bah. When character arcs are copied from NWN to KOTOR almost word for word, that does make the games a farce.

This has nothing to do with your irrelevant blathering about inspiration being plagiarism

Go fuck yourself Mr Strawman. Show me a single quote where I say inspiration is plagiarism. Go read my posts again and come back when you do.

HP is inspired by SW just as much as character arcs in NWN2 are inspired by those from KOTOR. That you fail to see a connection between those two in your adjective ridden meaningless posts is well beyond me. Having said that, I will again rephrase for the reading impaired, that I do not regard the above as bad, whereas Thanas explicitly said that it makes the game "a farce",

Enough littering this thread. You want to talk about NWN2, I've split this discussion into another thread and posted my reply to your argument that carry some actual meaning.

[Thanas]

Go fuck yourself Mr Strawman. Show me a single quote where I say inspiration is plagiarism. Go read my posts again and come back when you do.

When you constantly equate similarities (like SW and HP) to "hey, let's completely copy the character arc", you do in fact make that equation.

HP is inspired by SW just as much as character arcs in NWN2 are inspired by those from KOTOR. That you fail to see a connection between those two in your adjective ridden meaningless posts is well beyond me.

Yeah, sure SW has the exact same character arcs as HP does.

Having said that, I will again rephrase for the reading impaired, that I do not regard the above as bad, whereas Thanas explicitly said that it makes the game "a farce",

Yes, plagiarism is bad.

Enough littering this thread. You want to talk about NWN2, I've split this discussion into another thread and posted my reply to your argument that carry some actual meaning.

Who died and made you mod?

[Tolya]

Yeah, sure SW has the exact same character arcs as HP does.

HP is just an example. You said NWN2 has copied character arcs word for word from KOTOR - prove it. I say resemblance between character arcs in NWN2/KOTOR and HP/SW does not warrant calling it plagiarism.

You are of course entitled to such view, but to be consistent with it, you would have to call 90% of the entertainment industry "a farce".

Yes, plagiarism is bad.

Then please show me how the characters in NWN2 are "plagiarised". I agree that they are similar, but plagiarism? And when you show me this plagiarism, we can sue Obsidian on Bioware's behalf and make tons of cash.

Who died and made you mod?

Nobody. I just made a new thread in G&C section It's not that complicated, I'll show you if you want.