Decision about religion in schools in Berlin

[Tribun]

The Article at Spiegel.de

Berlin Referendum Fails at the Polls

Berliners voted Sunday on whether students can take religion instead of compulsory ethics classes. In the end, the referendum failed to attract either enough voters or a majority of those who did vote. Now the proposal's backers are saying Berlin's mayor hasn't been playing fair.

It was a referendum that dominated discussion in Berlin for weeks: Should school students have a choice between ethics and religion classes, or should ethics continue to be compulsory and religion an optional extra course?

But after the streets had been plastered with posters and the radio waves full of ads, after all the workshops, discussion panels and street-level campaigning, after all the special newspaper sections and all the lining-up of supporters drawn from the world of politics, sports and television, in the end, not enough people showed up at the polls to push the referendum through.

"I'd been hoping for a different result," said Christoph Lehmann, the lawyer who led the "Pro Reli" campaign, which was backed by the Chancellor Angela Merkel and her ruling center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party, the business-friendly Free Democratic Party (FDP) and the churches. Archbishop Robert Zollitch, the head of the Catholic German Bishops Conference, viewed it as a "painful outcome."

If passed, the proposal would have allowed students to choose between ethics and religion courses, which would have seen Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism taught separately.

In the end, only 14.2 percent of all eligible voters in Berlin cast their ballots on Sunday in support of the "Pro Reli" proposal, which was well short of the 25 percent -- or 611,422 votes -- needed to effect the change. A total of 713,228 (29.2 percent) of Berlin's 2.45 million eligible voters cast their ballot, 51.3 percent of which opposed and 48.5 percent of which supported the proposal.

Berlin has a long secular tradition, and 60 percent of Berliners are not members of any church. In 2006, ethics classes became a compulsory subject for Berlin students between grade 7 and grade 10, with religion being an optional extra class, after the "honor killing" of a Turkish woman murdered by her brother.

The proposal was opposed by Berlin's ruling left-wing parties, the Social Democratic Party (SPD) and the Left Party. The city-state's government argues that all students, regardless of their cultural or ethnic background, should learn a common set of values.

Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit pronounced himself pleased with the results of the referendum, telling Reuters: "This shows that those in 'Pro Reli' who were portraying this as a 'freedom' issue -- as if the Russians were about to invade -- are out of touch with the real situation in Berlin."

'Pro Reli' is responding to the loss by accusing the mayor of using his decision-making powers to favor the proposal's opponents. For example, Lehmann is now criticizing city hall for allegedly directing more funding to groups campaigning against the proposal as well as for refusing to hold the referendum on June 7, when Germans would have already been going to the polls for the EU parliamentary vote.

-- jtw, with wire sources

Now think about it. How would the outcome in an american city would have looked like?

[salm]

Now think about it. How would the outcome in an american city would have looked like?

You know, this is really the wrong topic to bash Americans with. They´ve had religion free schools for ever whereas in Germany religion is taught in all federal states except for Berlin.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Religion as a school subject, or faith-based schooling? Because I had a religion class in elementary and junior high school but my schooling wasn't faith-based and my science courses were unmolested. Mind you, it didn't do fuck-all to cover religions other than Christianity which made it severely undeserving of the course name, but it was restricted to that class and a comparative religions course unto itself is nothing to be alarmed about.

So which does Germany currently have?

[Thanas]

Religion as a school subject, or faith-based schooling? Because I had a religion class in elementary and junior high school but my schooling wasn't faith-based and my science courses were unmolested. Mind you, it didn't do fuck-all to cover religions other than Christianity which made it severely undeserving of the course name, but it was restricted to that class and a comparative religions course unto itself is nothing to be alarmed about.

So which does Germany currently have?

Religion as a school subject, taught by state-trained teachers instead of priests.

In most schools in northern germany, it is almost virtually indistinguishable from "ethics" nowadays. For example, in four years of religion we only talked about God half a year, the other time it was "drugs", "death penalty", "democracy vs. dictatorships", "philosophy" and "morality".

[Mr Bean]

In most schools in northern germany, it is almost virtually indistinguishable from "ethics" nowadays. For example, in four years of religion we only talked about God half a year, the other time it was "drugs", "death penalty", "democracy vs. dictatorships", "philosophy" and "morality".

I assume those were not biblical correct classes? But instead modern-reinterpretations?

[Thanas]

No, there are some biblically correct lessons (in my case, the one semester we talked about Jesus and his teachings), but nobody is willing (or allowed) to tell you that evolution didn't happen and that science is wrong.

Basically, it comes down to the teacher. My teacher only used the bible for half a year, the rest we read other stuff - like Platon, Russell, Nietzche, Berkeley etc.

When talking about drugs, the death penalty and democracy we mostly used newspaper articles and essays published by the german center for political education, a non-profit independent government agency.

[Mr Bean]

No, there are some biblically correct lessons (in my case, the one semester we talked about Jesus and his teachings), but nobody is willing (or allowed) to tell you that evolution didn't happen and that science is wrong.

So no old testament prohibitions about Shellfish, unclean animals, burning witches and purging unbelievers?

[Samuel]

No, there are some biblically correct lessons (in my case, the one semester we talked about Jesus and his teachings), but nobody is willing (or allowed) to tell you that evolution didn't happen and that science is wrong.

So no old testament prohibitions about Shellfish, unclean animals, burning witches and purging unbelievers?

I'm going out on a limb here and guessing they essentially got the Jefferson bible version.

[Thanas]

No, there are some biblically correct lessons (in my case, the one semester we talked about Jesus and his teachings), but nobody is willing (or allowed) to tell you that evolution didn't happen and that science is wrong.

So no old testament prohibitions about Shellfish, unclean animals, burning witches and purging unbelievers?

Nope. Well, we covered witchcraft, but as an example of what happens when you let fanatics run the show.

If you want your children to hear that kind of stuff, you have to send them to church school.


EDIT: I just remembered that we covered Elias, but that there was free discussion on the subject and no "if god commands it, it is right to kill people". Most of us agreed that Elias was a huge jackass.

[ray245]

No, there are some biblically correct lessons (in my case, the one semester we talked about Jesus and his teachings), but nobody is willing (or allowed) to tell you that evolution didn't happen and that science is wrong.

Basically, it comes down to the teacher. My teacher only used the bible for half a year, the rest we read other stuff - like Platon, Russell, Nietzche, Berkeley etc.

When talking about drugs, the death penalty and democracy we mostly used newspaper articles and essays published by the german center for political education, a non-profit independent government agency.

So in other words, religion class is more of a social/politicial class than about religion itself?

[Prannon]

The impression I get is that the class was more of a "let's talk about religion and how it actually relates to the world and human institutions," kind of like my Christianity and Politics class was in college. Probably not exactly the same, but not entirely different either.

[Thunderfire]

Religion as a school subject, taught by state-trained teachers instead of priests.

It is(was?) a bit different in southern germany. All my religion teachers during elementary
school were local clergymen. Their teaching was pretty much all bible stories.

[Thanas]

The impression I get is that the class was more of a "let's talk about religion and how it actually relates to the world and human institutions," kind of like my Christianity and Politics class was in college. Probably not exactly the same, but not entirely different either.

No, most of the time we didn't even talk about religion at all.

Religion as a school subject, taught by state-trained teachers instead of priests.

It is(was?) a bit different in southern germany. All my religion teachers during elementary
school were local clergymen. Their teaching was pretty much all bible stories.

Yes, southern Germany (still) is a bit different in that regard, but AFAIK they may not argue against evolution either.

Also, you had religion in the Grundschule? Sounds like you went to school in Bayern or Baden-Württemberg.

[LaCroix]

I'm going out on a limb here and guessing they essentially got the Jefferson bible version.

I don't think that that bible is used anywhere in europe.

We use all 4 evangeliums, and usually the old testament is added. When using bible quotes, we us the untruncated version.

The real difference is that religion class covers all religions and does not preach from the bible. So we basically talk about christianity, judaism, islam, bhuddism, taoism, hell, even voodoo and Rastafaris got covered.

Most of the time we talk about general principles of ethics.

[Akkleptos]

They´ve had religion free schools for ever whereas in Germany religion is taught in all federal states except for Berlin.

Quite odd, indeed.

Religion, taught in schools? And in Germany -such an otherwise advanced country- of all places? Honestly, I didn't see that one coming.

And to think there are "Third-World shithole" countries in which teaching religion in public schools (or any other kind of schools, though the government does tend to turn a blind eye when it comes to Catholic institutes) is forbidden by law:

Religious corporations, ministers of religion, stock companies which exclusively or predominantly engage in educational activities, and associations or companies devoted to propagation of any religious creed shall not in any way participate in institutions giving elementary, secondary and normal education and education for laborers or field workers.

[Tiriol]

They´ve had religion free schools for ever whereas in Germany religion is taught in all federal states except for Berlin.

Quite odd, indeed.

Religion, taught in schools? And in Germany -such an otherwise advanced country- of all places? Honestly, I didn't see that one coming.

And to think there are "Third-World shithole" countries in which teaching religion in public schools (or any other kind of schools, though the government does tend to turn a blind eye when it comes to Catholic institutes) is forbidden by law:

Religious corporations, ministers of religion, stock companies which exclusively or predominantly engage in educational activities, and associations or companies devoted to propagation of any religious creed shall not in any way participate in institutions giving elementary, secondary and normal education and education for laborers or field workers.

Finland also has religion in its curriculum in elementary and high schools - and yet it is a far cry from a fundamentalist point of view. Yes, Jesus and the Bible are covered in it, but also other religions, some philosophy and ethics. It is not a tool of conversion but rather a way to enlighten students about religion, its effects and its history. If you don't belong to the Protestant Church of Finland, you don't have to take those classes and take either E.T. (elämänkatsomustieto, roughly translated as "study of view of life", basically an ethics course) or something more fitting to their religious background (Orthodox students get their own religion class, Muslims also etc.). And it is not something which you use to convert people - the teachers are not priests, but trained professionals (and funnily often they don't even belong to any church).

Having religion teached in a public school does not mean that a country would be less advanced. It's not about the name, it's about the content.

[Akkleptos]

Having religion taught in a public school does not mean that a country would be less advanced. It's not about the name, it's about the content.

Of course, I understand it's nothing like what some are pushing towards in, say, the US.

Nevertheless, ethics and morality can be taught without resorting to religion, of any kind. And religion, in itself, is a bad thing, as demonstrated by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

[EDIT: URLs added]

[Thanas]

Having religion taught in a public school does not mean that a country would be less advanced. It's not about the name, it's about the content.

Of course, I understand it's nothing like what some are pushing towards in, say, the US.

Nevertheless, ethics and morality can be taught without resorting to religion, of any kind. And religion, in itself, is a bad thing, as demonstrated by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

[EDIT: URLs added]

That is true, but I would still prefer the average student to know a bit about religion as taught from an enlightened and non-biased point of view, because:

- religion is a major part in the daily life of third-world countries, which coincidentally are also export markets for Germany
- In the same vein as the above, in order to truly understand a large part of western culture, you need to know about religion. Of course, the average student won't care much for the fine arts or history, but if you listen to Mozarts Requiem or look at the Kölner Dom, you should at least have a basic knowledge what it is about.
- Knowing about religion allows one to recognize idiocy and distortions
- If the state would not offer religion as a school subject, chances are parents would take their kids to private fundy school.

The last part is actually the one I find most important.

[salm]

Yes, southern Germany (still) is a bit different in that regard, but AFAIK they may not argue against evolution either.

Also, you had religion in the Grundschule? Sounds like you went to school in Bayern or Baden-Württemberg.

I went to school in Baden-Württemberg and my religion teacher (i only left church when i was 16 or so and went to ethics class after that) was a physics teacher. A typical religion class would be:
- Sing some religous song (90% of the times Danke für diesen guten Morgen)
- Learn something about hydroelectric power plant, WWII stories (he was pretty old) or three-field crop rotation

But you´re right. Other classes weren´t that lucky and had deans, priests and vicars as teachers.

[Bounty]

Quite odd, indeed.

Religion, taught in schools? And in Germany -such an otherwise advanced country- of all places? Honestly, I didn't see that one coming.

More knowledge > less knowledge. Like it or not, religion is a huge factor in both history and our daily lives, even for someone who isn't religious himself. Understanding where religion comes from, how it evolved, how it shapes views and how these views influence the world isn an important part of any education, and one I wouldn't want to have left out of mine.

Like Thanas, religion classes in Belgium are closer to an ethics class with theological history tacked on. We studied the origin of religious texts, the moral of religion, religions other than Catholicism, and then it pretty much jumped straight into ethics and art. Volunteer work and field trips (Buddhist temples are a very nice place to be!) were petty important too; it certainly wasn't religious indoctrination, nor did it even treat Catholic dogma as factually correct.

[Thanas]

IMO having the state take charge of religious education was the best thing ever to happen with regards to the seperation of church and state, because it takes away the church's power over young children while also forcing religious teachers to approach it from a neutral and scientific manner.

Unlike, say, the USA, where churches and fundie parents can brainwash the children all they want and the children do not have a forum where they can critically ask about stuff without fearing retribution.

Of course, this leads to some fundies trying to avoid school altogether, but those fundies are heavily prosecuted by the church and when caught, usually loose their children and/or go to jail.

[salm]

Of course, this leads to some fundies trying to avoid school altogether, but those fundies are heavily prosecuted by the church and when caught, usually loose their children and/or go to jail.

You mean heavily prosecuted by the state, eh?

[Thanas]

Of course, this leads to some fundies trying to avoid school altogether, but those fundies are heavily prosecuted by the church and when caught, usually loose their children and/or go to jail.

You mean heavily prosecuted by the state, eh?

Yeah, you're right. I meant state.

[Akkleptos]

Like Thanas, religion classes in Belgium are closer to an ethics class with theological history tacked on. We studied the origin of religious texts, the moral of religion, religions other than Catholicism, and then it pretty much jumped straight into ethics and art.

IMO having the state take charge of religious education was the best thing ever to happen with regards to the seperation of church and state, because it takes away the church's power over young children while also forcing religious teachers to approach it from a neutral and scientific manner.

Of course I do not object this approach to teaching "religion" in schools. Anything that encourages critical thinking in young minds, I'm all for it. It's just that in many other places (take the US for example) the expression has such a different meaning it's incredible it is made up of the same words. And, for a second there I made the mistake of assuming you guys were talking about something similar to what is seen in other countries.

[Qwerty 42]

Of course, this leads to some fundies trying to avoid school altogether, but those fundies are heavily prosecuted by the church and when caught, usually loose their children and/or go to jail.

You mean heavily prosecuted by the state, eh?

Yeah, you're right. I meant state.

Though it would be rather ironic.

I don't think that having Religious classes is uncommon at schools, but the intent is different than it would seem at first blush. For instance, at my (secondary, admittedly) school there's a Religion department, but it's important to note that it falls under the jurisdiction of the Philosophy department. While there are classes like "Honors Studies in Islam," they're intended to be courses that teach about the religion without expecting you to believe in it. Religion is an important aspect of many people's lives, so it's worth learning, from a purely utilitarian standpoint, why its practitioners undertake certain actions.

Of course, there's a large gap between what's appropriate to be taught in primary schools and secondary schools, since cognitive abilities first begin to really develop in the early teen years.