WoW: Is Varian Right?

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Kuja
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WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Kuja »

In the aftermath of patch 3.1 and the release of the Ulduar trailer, a World of Warcraft blog site I happen to frequent put up an article regarding King Varian that provoked a pretty hefty debate among readers. I thought I would crosspost it here and see what my fellow WoW players thought.

(Warning, it's a long article, but it reads pretty fast.)
Varian Wrynn is Right
by Daniel Whitcomb


Among WoW players these days, it seems to be a popular opinion that King Varian Wrynn is a narrow minded short-sighted bigot who will lead the Alliance to ruin. This is an easy opinion to have, since he does show a considerable amount of anger at times when dealing with the Horde, and it's long been the general opinion that "no-one is truly evil" in the Horde and Alliance conflict. This is even the opinion of some of my fellow writers.

Here's my problem with this: The underlying causes of Varian Wrynn's anger are all unconditionally justified. Varian Wrynn is not angry at the Horde because of a series of misunderstandings and misinterpretations. He's been witness to or victim of multiple wrongdoings and atrocities perpetuated by the Horde time and time again, both the new Horde and the Old. Most, if not all of these times, the wrongdoings have been the result of outright maliciousness on the part of the Horde or its members, and in the case the so-called "peaceful" New Horde, there's been no sign whatsoever that Thrall is punishing or disciplining the perpetrators of these acts, and at the least, it is clear that he is not properly dealing with the consequences.

Regarding the First Fall of Stormwind

The first fall of Stormwind occurred when Varian Wrynn was a young man. So this was Varian's first encounter with the Orcs. Now mind you, this Orcish Horde had no justification for the war. They were not being driven from land, they were not starving or lost, nor were they addressing some ancient affront by the Human race. No, these Orcs were foreign invaders from another dimension

Consider, also, how they eventually razed Stormwind. They were able to do so by way of Garona, a Half-Orc assassin acting on behalf of the Horde. So Varian not only saw that the Orcish Army was a mindlessly violent army bent on the destruction of the human race, but that the one Orc who might have been different, the one Orc who appeared to have befriended humanity and proven that not how all Orcs were mindless beasts, betrayed them and proved herself an enemy to humanity by murdering Varian's beloved Father.

Horde apologists will tell you that Garona was acting under mind control. There's two problems with this. First, Varian has no real way of knowing Garona was mind-controlled at the time. All he knows is that an Orc gained the trust and friendship of his father, then used it to betray and murder him, causing the downfall of his kingdom and very nearly the downfall of all humanity. Secondly, Garona was still under the control of the Shadow Council, which was at the time solely an Orcish organization and the de facto leadership of the Horde. Either way, it was the Horde who killed his father and nearly wiped out his people.

On Varian's loss of his second father and Humanity's loss of their greatest Hero

Now, consider the aftermath of this incident. It was Anduin Lothar who saved what remained of Stormwind's people after the razing. He spirited Varian away to Lordaeron along with the rest of the survivors. Once in Stormwind, he replaced Llane as Varian's father figure and mentor, and worked with King Tereneas to establish the Alliance, the force that became the only hope of humans, dwarves, and elves against the Orcish Horde.

And yet, Anduin Lothar was killed in cold blood by the Orcs during their attempt to finish what they had started at Stormwind, killed by Orgrim Doomhammer himself.

Horde Apologists will argue that Orgrim Doomhammer was not under the influence of the Burning Legion, and that he was doing it in self-defense, but again, there's problems with those who insist on this. First, while Orgrim was a friend of Durotan and supposedly had heeded his warning that Blackhand and Gul'dan did not have the Horde's best interests in mind, he still allowed Gul'dan to live, employed his necromancers and the Death Knights in battle, and continued the Horde's genocidal campaign against the the Humans. This all strongly implies that Orgrim was more interested in his own personal power, or at least the dominance of the Orcs, rather than doing what was right.

Regardless, whether Orgrim was under the control of the Burning Legion or not, he was still acting as an enemy of the Alliance. In addition, while the forces of the Alliance did have the Horde pinned down at Blackrock Spire, there was no attempt by Doomhammer to parlay. Instead, he went out to kill.

A Note should be made here that in the original events of Warcraft II, Lothar came to Blackrock under a flag of truce to offer terms of surrender to Orgrim, but was ambushed and killed in Cold Blood by Orgrim's order. A retcon changed this to put Lothar and Orgrim in single combat, but the basic crimes of Orgrim remain, and later depictions of the battle (for example, in the d20 Warcraft games player's guides) have left the circumstances of the single combat murky enough that an ambush or deliberate drawing out of Lothar on the part of Orgrim may have still happened.

Regardless of the exact cause of Lothar's death, the point remains that Orgrim, no matter what his ultimate loyalties, continued the genocidal campaign of the Horde upon the Humans, Dwarves, and High Elves, and killed Anduin Lothar in the process. The Horde killed Humanity's greatest hero and Varian's mentor and second father during an unjust war of genocide against Varian's people, the people he was sworn to protect as King. Thus, the injustices perpetrated against Varian by the Horde continue to stack to unbelievable, unwieldy heights.

On the formation of the New Horde and their attitude toward the Alliance

Horde apologists will argue that all of these problems are the Old Horde, and that the New Horde should be treated as a new, separate entity. Once again, there are very definite problems with this view. Not only are most of the Orcs that make up the current Horde the same Orcs who were the rank and file and leaders of the Old Horde, the fact remains that the New Horde is still using many of the trappings and philosophies of the Old Horde, and is more and more committing new violent acts of their own.

To start with, on the most basic of levels, Thrall continues to use symbology and symbols for the Horde that are, in Human experience, most clearly and basically connected with the Old Horde that was attempting to wipe out the free peoples of Azeroth.

The very title "Warchief" is said to be an ancient title of the Orcs. However, current lore suggests that the title had fallen out of use, and was only taken up again by Rend Blackhand as a tool by Gul'dan to unite the clans as an army of darkness and death. Orgrim Doomhammer took over the title, but continued to use it as the head of a genocidal army. Thrall now claims the title, but the fact remains that, ancestral ties or not, it has been most recently used as a tool of the Burning Legion, only very vaguely tied in to the heritage of an old line of Warchiefs that may or may not have existed, a history that Thrall, as of yet, shows few signs of trying to uncover. When Thrall uses the title Warchief, it is most clearly being used to evoke the power and authority of Orgrim Doomhammer.

Yes, Thrall and the Horde still revere Orgrim Doomhammer, the bloody Warchief who killed Anduin Lothar, the savior of humanity. He is considered a Hero, so much that Thrall wears his armor and carries his hammer - the same Hammer that killed Lothar, or one very similar to it. Thrall calls for peace while wearing the armor and weapon of an Orc who very nearly destroyed Humanity, ostensibly to honor him. In addition, he calls his capital, the symbol of the power and might of the new Horde, Orgrimmar. It's not very hard to see why a human, dwarf, or High Elf might find this symbology a bit insulting, and wonder why the "New" Horde is so eager to honor the Orc who committed some of the worst atrocities of the "Old" Horde. It's even worse for Varian, considering how close he was to Lothar, who was murdered by Orgrim.

Orgrim certainly isn't the only one to be honored like this either. Many of the main generals and architects of the Human, Dwarven, and High Elven genocide are now revered and honored by the Horde, with little to no attempts made to acknowledge their faults and the very real war crimes they committed against the Alliance. Grom Hellscream was one of the first to drink the Demon's blood offered by Gul'dan and commited many atrocities against the Draenei, against humans in the second war, and against Night Elves later.. Kargath Bladefist likewise has had multiple landmarks and fortresses named in his honor, and when he was killed in Outland after revealing himself to be a continued servant of demonic powers, Nazgrel (Another war criminal of the "Old" Horde) spoke of him with respect and honor.

If you are trying to break away from the example of the Old Horde, embracing so much of it seems like a very counter-intuitive way of doing it, and Varian, having at least seen the way Orgrim himself is honored, has a right to at least be made uncomfortable by this.

On the continuing activity of the New Horde: The Warsong

Now some would argue that the Horde needs their symbols, and as long as they are peaceful, they should be allowed to use them, But even if you buy that argument (and I don't), the Horde has hardly been peaceful. In fact, they have very clearly been instigators in multiple conflicts. One of the prime hot spots is in Ashenvale.

The main argument for the Warsong Clan's presence there is that the Horde legitimately needs the Lumber. There's two problems with this argument. Firstly, the actions of the Warsong Clan in Ashenvale really can't be justified even if they "need" something there, and secondly, no-one involved even pretends this is about the lumber anymore.

The Warsong Clan first got entangled in Ashenvale by marching into it armed for war, with no idea of who was there or whether anyone else had prior claim to the lumber or the land. Horde apologists will argue that they didn't know it was taken, but this is hardly a legitimate claim. European settlers came to the Americas centuries ago, ostensibly to settle, and for that they needed resources. However, it is very nearly universally agreed that the resulting genocide against the native tribes is one of the darkest chapters of human history. In this case, the natives, the Night Elves, had the ability to fight back with much higher effectiveness than the Native Americans did against the Europeans. This in no way justifies Grom's response. Instead of falling back and waiting for further instructions from Thrall, he attacked the Night Elves with gusto, taking demonic blood to do so.

As soon as the Warsong knew the lumber and land was spoken for, they should have properly withdrawn, or sent emissaries. Since they did not, they very clearly became the unlawful aggressors. To compound this trouble, they no longer even pretend this is about Lumber. Warsong Generals and Tauren Hunters alike call Ashenvale, the ancestral land of the Night Elves, an "untamed wilderness" that rightfully belongs to the Horde invaders, and they now openly leave the lumber they cut out to rot, the very act of cutting down the trees now a sign of dominance and insult to nature and the Night Elves. This is eerily like the "manifest destiny" philosophy the US Army and west-bound settlers used to wipe out or displace the Native tribes they encountered.

In addition, Varian has seen this first hand. After he escaped from slavery, he came to Ashenvale and joined the Night Elves in fighting against the Horde, and saw them summon a massive Fire Elemental to burn the forest. In other words, he was witness to another act of malicious aggression by the supposed peaceful "new" Horde, and had one more reason to suspect that the Orcs were hardly being peaceable, but were clashing with the Alliance at every opportunity.

On the continuing activity of the New Horde: The RAS, the Wrathgate, and the Battle for Undercity

The RAS is one of the other major problem spots in the Horde. At the Wrathgate, their lethality and intent was unleashed, killing many Alliance soldiers, and once again, one of the greatest Generals of the Alliance. This time, it was Bolvar Fordragon, a general as close to Varian as a brother, and acting father figure to Anduin Wrynn in Varian's absence. This is the third time that the Horde has directly and maliciously taken a person close to Varian.

Horde Apologists will argue that the RAS at the Wrathgate were a rebellious splinter faction that should not be lumped in with the rest of the Horde, or even the rest of the Forsaken. Again, there is a problem with that. The RAS was doing exactly what they were founded to do at Wrathgate. Putress' mistake was not destroying the living. It was doing it for the wrong master.

The RAS, from the beginning, has planned to kill humanity. From the first moment that a newly minted Forsaken comes to Brill, he is put to work, not poisoning Scourge, but rather poisoning the living. At one point, Apothecary Johann has you concoct a disease to kill an Alliance citizen, a Dwarf. When he gives you the instructions, he tells you that "this is a subtle hint of what The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth." Not "The Scourge." All of Azeroth. And note that he does not say "the RAS," he says "The Dark Lady." From the beginning levels, it is made very clear that Sylvanas is completely on board with the "Death to the Living" part of the RAS' philosophy.

Compounding this is the Forsaken's actions against the legitimate Alliance communities of Southshore and Hillsbrad fields. The army of the Undercity shows themselves dedicated to completely wiping out an innocent farming community in the most bloody way possible, and releases a vengeful Lich on Southshore itself. Mind you, there is every indication that the Forsaken started these engagements. At the very least, Hillsbrad is clearly a peaceful farming community.

Apothecary Lydon makes it very clear that the RAS wants to see everyone dead, and has you use his poisons on innocent Alliance farmers. When you report his findings to Faranell, Faranell is completely delighted in the work and sends you out to gather more reagents for Lydon. It is made abundantly clear that Lydon is not an aberration or part of a splinter group. The entirety of the RAS is as dedicated to killing the living as they are the dead.

If all of this was not enough to incriminate the RAS, the new Arthas novel quite definitely confirms that the RAS is looking to kill the living, and that Sylvanas is in on the deal. A scene set just before the start of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion places Sylvanas in the RAS's chambers, watching as Faranell administers a new plague strain to a young human girl and a stoic Forsaken man (Faranell insists the man is a criminal, but Sylvanas' internal dialogue implies that she doubts he really is but does not care either way). When both die retch and die horribly, she commends Faranell for his work and returns to her chambers, exulting that she may finally be able to kill both the Scourge and the Living with this new strain.

That's right, The Dark Lady is most definitely 100% on board with the killing.

With this in mind, it becomes clear that Putress' crime in the eyes of the Undercity and of Sylvanas was not aiming his Plague Barrels at the living, but doing it at an inopportune moment and for Varimathras rather than Sylvanas. Sylvanas herself is a Banshee, an undead being known for using deceit and charm, and was able to use her refugee caravan to move Thrall's sympathy to her. By all indications, neither Sylvanas nor Thrall has launched an investigation into the RAS' aims and how much Putress got away with and why.

Again, Varian himself has a front row seat to these atrocities. Leading the charge into Undercity, he sees the RAS' inner laboratories, and the horrendous machinery and experiments going on there, experiments that Putress carried out openly, and would have been seen as part of the RAS' stated mission apart from his secret allegiance to Varimathras. Thus, Varian sees that the treachery and maliciousness of the Horde extends not only to the Orcs, but possibly to the other member nations. And either way, he sees the Alliance suffering and dying. Whether this is ultimately because of Horde maliciousness or incompetence doesn't really matter. Either way, it has to be stopped.

On Varian's temper and restraint

Varian is often said to be "emo," or to have a lack of restraint or a violent temper. First of all, given all of the events outlined in the previous parts of this article, it's hard to call him unjustified. Secondly, he has in actuality, shown a great amount of restraint, civility, and wisdom in his dealings with the Horde until recently.

Varian has actually tried, in good faith, to participate in Peace talks with the Horde. When he was first captured and enslaved by Rethgar Earthfury, one of Thrall's most trusted advisers, he was on his way to a peace conference. When he regained his throne, he agreed to attend that same peace conference (This is depicted in the Warcraft comic series).

Thrall walked into that Peace conference wielding the symbols of Office of Orgrim Doomhammer, the man who killed Anduin Lothar, and Varian abode. Thrall walked into that Peace conference alongside Rethgar Earthfury, an Orc who participated in a massive slave ring that enslaved Alliance citizens and forced them to fight to the Death, an Orc who had enslaved Varian himself in this manner, and Varian abode. Despite the injustices heaped on him, Varian was willing to talk peace after all.

What broke the camel's back was a scenario that was tailor made to evoke his first encounter with the Horde. Garona, the same assassin who killed his father under the auspices of the Horde, came to finish the job. Given the setup, it was hardly a massive leap of logic for Varian to assume the Horde was behind it again. He may have been wrong in this case, but the circumstantial evidence for it was not insignificant. If the Horde used Garona to kill his father, it's not much of a leap to think the same Horde might be looking to kill him as well.

Again during the Ulduar Cinematic, while Varian did not appreciate Thrall's presence, he did not immediately teleport away. It was Garrosh who escalated, insulting Varian and his people to his face. Even then, when Varian challenged him, he did not take the first strike. That was Garrosh. Varian, despite all the injustices heaped upon him and his people, did not completely rule out dealing with the Horde until Garrosh attacked him viciously while Thrall stood by impotently.

Far from having an uncontrollable temper, Varian Wrynn has acted with relative restraint and calm. He has simply finally been pushed too far by a Horde that has rebuffed his every attempt to understand them.

On the "Yes, But..." Arguments

There are many Horde Apologists who will, upon hearing some of the above arguments, admit that the Horde may not be the best of neighbors to the Alliance at times. However, many of them then follow this admittance up with a "But."

There are two major "Buts." The first is that Thrall is working for peace even if the Horde is sometimes rowdy. The second is that the Horde and the Alliance must unite to face larger enemies, or everyone will die, and any Horde or Alliance wars should be put off until then.

Again, events suggest that neither excuse really stands up. Thrall has talked, but has taken very little legitimate action to stop the onslaught of the Horde. He has not attempted to withdraw the Warsong Clan from Ashenvale, nor did he monitor his allies, not balking at the torture and imprisonment of Mu'ru (whether that was destined or not, it was still morally reprehensible for the Blood Elves to have done it) or the actions of the Forsaken in Northern Lordaeron and Ashenvale, where they killed and enslaved the spirits of innocent sleeping Druids.

He has also apparently not done anything significant to stop the spread of Slavery in the Horde, and the organization that enslaved Varian has a base in Orgrimmar where they even keep stolen Alliance artifacts such as the belt of Lothar. In fact, one of the greatest patrons of the organization, Rethgar Earthfury, is now one of Thrall's most trusted advisers. Contrast this to the Alliance's now-defunct gladiator system as depicted in Arthas: Blackmoore was kept under careful watch and was not trusted by Tereneas or Arthas, and Thrall was revealed to be the only slave gladiator, the others all voluntarily fighting for fame and glory, and only rarely to the death if at all.

Thrall is ostensibly trying to teach his people to have pride in themselves and their heritage, but the heritage he is offering is still stained in the trappings of the old genocidal Horde, such as their honoring of bloodlust and war criminals such as Grom and Orgrim (Whom Thrall even evokes at the end of the Battle of the Undercity. When Thrall asks how Grom and Orgrim would react at these events, all I can think is that they'd join Garrosh in calling for all out battle on the Alliance, if their past actions are any indication).

When his people take these ideals too far, which is very easy to do and happens very often, Thrall is silent. For example, He has done nothing to reign in Garrosh aside from one aborted duel that Garrosh was close to winning. Garrosh has sabotaged peace with the Alliance at every possible opportunity, even before the events of the Wrathgate, and afterwards, has continued to prod and provoke. Saurfang is forced to counter what he can of Garrosh's recklessness in secret. In short, Thrall is silent on the crimes of his people. The Alliance and Varian have every right to see him as a Hypocrite.

"Yes, But" and Putting Aside Differences

The other "Yes, But" argument is that the Horde and the Alliance should put aside their differences to fight the larger challenges. The problem with that is that asking the Alliance to ally with the Horde is, at the moment, essentially identical to asking them to ally with the Twilight's Hammer, the Scarlet Crusade, or the Blackrock Orcs. The Horde has dedicated themselves to fighting and wiping out the Alliance in nearly every corner of Azeroth once again. Even when the Alliance tries to focus their attacks on the "real" threats, the Horde stabs them in the back, such as at the Broken Front, where the Horde Warriors proudly boast of ambushing and killing the Alliance as they fought the Scourge.

In Northern Lordaeron, in Northrend, and in Ashenvale, the RAS is clearly dedicated to destroying the Alliance, killing them by poisoning. Their stated intent is the wiping out of all life. The Warsong clan is dedicated to "taming" Ashenvale, and will kill as many Night Elves as they need to to do it. These are no longer minor skirmishes or disagreements, if they ever were. The Alliance body count in skirmishes with the Horde rises by the day, and most of these skirmishes are Horde-instigated, and happened before the Wrathgate.

To say the Alliance should simply let bygones be bygones does not work, especially after the Broken Front. The Horde have proven that they will strike at any time, and will do their best to destroy the Alliance. The Scourge or the Burning Legion or Malygos may destroy Azeroth, but the Horde will destroy the Alliance. Either way the end result for the members of the Alliance is the same - they have died painfully and gone extinct as a race. There is very little incentive for the Alliance to declare peace anymore, and I have yet to hear Rhonin, Jaina, or anyone else in favor of "peace" give a solid enough answer that Varian should be expected to listen to.

On the Future

In short, painting Varian as an "emo" or an irrational grudge holder is a very simplistic view that ignores the repeated and unwarranted aggression the Horde, both the "Old" and "New" versions, have shown to the Alliance. At this point, it is obvious to me that Varian is not declaring a new war against the Horde as much as he is finally committing the Alliance to the one that is already there, fighting back against the Horde in a way no other Alliance leader has so far.

I do not believe that Blizzard's Lore team is ignorant of the things I have outlined above, nor do I believe Varian is headed to a career as an unforgivable Villain, at least not because of the current Horde-Alliance conflict. This one is actually pretty well justified.

But here is what I believe needs to happen:

Thrall either needs to find his backbone, or step aside. Garrosh will continue to flex his power, and he will continue to attract followers who believe in the Bloody, Proud, arrogant Horde that Thrall has inadvertently fostered through misplaced hero worship of the War criminals and symbols of the Old Horde. Saurfang, who speaks out against arrogance and has repeatedly expressed his regret for the crimes his people committed in the first and second wars, but still carries an air of nobility and fierceness, should be the true new model for the Horde.

In fact, Saurfang should be the leader of the New Horde if Thrall doesn't clean up his act, and fast. If Thrall does clean up his act and depose Garrosh, insist Sylvanas disband the RAS and stop any biological warfare programs, and pull out of Ashenvale, he should still use Saurfang's attitude as the new target for the Orcish outlook on life.

Varian himself will continue to lead the Alliance successfully, and will gain some solid victories against the Horde. He will perhaps see some examples of noble Horde who properly understand the tragic history of the Orcs, and learn to respect them. Perhaps the Orc will be Saurfang himself.

At this point, Thrall should hopefully be ready to repent. If Thrall genuinely comes in peace and offers legitimate concessions to the Alliance, I believe Varian will be able to talk peace legitimately. But at this point, the Horde has committed far too many crimes for them to demand anything approaching equal terms or status quo antebellum. If nothing else, it will teach the Horde a valuable lesson in humility.

Of course, Blizzard's Lore Team generally manages to surprise, sometimes pleasantly, sometimes not so pleasantly. But at this point, I do think the Horde and Alliance conflict is playing out this way for a reason, and in the end, I believe Varian will be a legitimate hero of the Alliance, and a legitimate "Good Guy." His reputation in the current conflict among much of the player base is far from deserved, and I encourage everyone to think about it and understand that he has a very solid outlay of reasons to be fed up with the Horde, and he's given them more than a fair shake all told.

Varian Wrynn is right, and unless Thrall grows a backbone soon, the Horde is headed right back into their old ways.
From here.


Personally, I come down firmly on the side of Varian and and the author of the article. I've been debating some of the folks following the article and it can be rather frustrating as many people either address the article's points improperly, spend all their time slamming Varian's character, or just scream blindly into the wind. I've enjoyed Varian's development characterwise and I sympathize with his view of the Horde quite a bit. It seems like since we got to Northrend, a lot of the Horde npc's have been acting like giant dicks (one particularly memorable questgiver threatens to axe you just for walking up to her) whereas the Alliance has managed to retain much of its positive attitude and a great deal more enjoyable interaction.

As for Varian himself, yeah, he's a bit cliched and yeah, his attitude can be grating at times, but I'm still liking him more than Thrall these days, who's been acting like a colossal moron ever since Wrath and the comic came out.

Anyway, thought from the other WoW-players?
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Turns out Blizzard can't write for shit? They've tried to push this whole 'neither side is better than the other' thing, but it's never worked. Thrall in WoW is not the Thrall from Warcraft III, for one thing: he is nowhere near as thoughtful or conflicted in WoW. When it comes down to it, the Alliance is made up entirely of good guys, where the Horde is made up of one group of good guys, two morally ambivalent groups and two groups of moustache twirling homicidal nutcases. I think the Alliance can go collectively jump into a very large lake, but there's no escaping that the Horde is written to be aggressive, violent with astonishingly weak leadership, given who the leader should be.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Kuja »

Ford Prefect wrote:Turns out Blizzard can't write for shit? They've tried to push this whole 'neither side is better than the other' thing, but it's never worked. Thrall in WoW is not the Thrall from Warcraft III, for one thing: he is nowhere near as thoughtful or conflicted in WoW. When it comes down to it, the Alliance is made up entirely of good guys, where the Horde is made up of one group of good guys, two morally ambivalent groups and two groups of moustache twirling homicidal nutcases. I think the Alliance can go collectively jump into a very large lake, but there's no escaping that the Horde is written to be aggressive, violent with astonishingly weak leadership, given who the leader should be.
One thing that's fascinating (and a little creepy) is that a couple folks have crawled out of the woodwork trying to put forth the idea that the Forsaken are in the right for developing plagues and such activity to defend themselves against the bigots who want to destroy them for being different.

It's interesting from a psychological standpoint to see the firsthand effect of people being told that "you're the good guys" over and over again with reinforcement. People will leap to some bloody insane conclusions.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

BAH! nothing but Anti Horde Propaganda! The Alliance has always been a bunch of limp wrested pansies and double crossers! They don't Deserve the Horde! The Orcs, Taurens and Trolls have always be a noble and gentle collection! Its the nasty Alliance that force us to defend ourselves!

Again the whole article is nothing but Propaganda! BAH to the whole thing!

RAR! NERD RAGE!
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Kuja wrote:One thing that's fascinating (and a little creepy) is that a couple folks have crawled out of the woodwork trying to put forth the idea that the Forsaken are in the right for developing plagues and such activity to defend themselves against the bigots who want to destroy them for being different.

It's interesting from a psychological standpoint to see the firsthand effect of people being told that "you're the good guys" over and over again with reinforcement. People will leap to some bloody insane conclusions.
I hate to tell you this, but the Forsaken can actually be considered legitimate in using biological weapons to protect themselves: a lot of approaches to political theory advocate that the primary objective of any sovereign state is state survival, and the Forsaken are an extremely young and fragile state in extremely close proximity to people who would otherwise wipe them out without much of a second thought. I don't think this makes them right (certainly because they're only doing it because they're evil, not because of legitimate political reasons), no more than I think the Blood Elves were right for chaining up a Naaru (or however you spell it) so that the Blood Knights could emulate the abilities of paladins.

Incidentally, I like how this guy totally glosses over how the humans of Lordaeron were actually keeping huge numbers of Orcs in forced labour camps (If I remember Warcraft III correctly).
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ghost Rider »

I agree with a few points in the article but a lot comes from the fact Blizz really has no freaking clue.

Alliance:

Humans: A bunch of yabbering idiots until Varian. I mean Ony had them puttering around until she literally came up and out.

Night Elves: Aside from really hating Orcs, a bunch of idiots more concerned with themselves. The second is command is likely trying to kill every decent NE because he was angry about his son dying like a retard against the bugs.

Dwarves: Well...they are actually one of the more conflicted with doing good things for the Alliance and some rather wrong things in general. Digging up because you can is not helpful.

Gnomes: They are pretty much still pining for home and helping the Alliance.

Draenai: The goody two shoes. They regret bad things, bad thoughts and accept nearly everyone. Except some people in Shattrath.

Horde:

Orcs: Belligerent fuckers. Really they invade Night Elf territory, claiming they need more room. Invade other parts claiming the same thing, but when attacked they feign "But we've changed!!!" And really Garrosh is a retarded fucking idiot. With Wrath they are making the Orcs look either passively fucking stupid or actively fucking stupid. The shit that has failed because of the Orcs.

Tauren: About the only really decent group with a blight in the power hungry bitch cow.

Trolls: They exist. That's about it. The faction that has sided with the Horde...just are there.

Forsaken: Really, after killing parts of your own faction and claiming "Oh...we didn't think it would hit you guys." Really, Thrall is a moron for that event alone, let alone trusting them.

Blood Elves: Angry emo teenagers. Their like of the Forsaken aside(because of Slyvannus) they had their ray of sunshine and it was at best "ooops, sorry for stealing M'Uru, won't happen again." And yes, I've beaten Sunwell.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Kuja »

Ford Prefect wrote:I hate to tell you this, but the Forsaken can actually be considered legitimate in using biological weapons to protect themselves: a lot of approaches to political theory advocate that the primary objective of any sovereign state is state survival, and the Forsaken are an extremely young and fragile state in extremely close proximity to people who would otherwise wipe them out without much of a second thought. I don't think this makes them right (certainly because they're only doing it because they're evil, not because of legitimate political reasons), no more than I think the Blood Elves were right for chaining up a Naaru (or however you spell it) so that the Blood Knights could emulate the abilities of paladins.
Point taken, I hadn't considered it on the nationalist side of the issue. However, the Forsaken at the time of their inception were largely beset by the Scourge, which are all undead. (The Scarlet Crusade was not nearly in the same grade of threat.) With that in mind, it's pretty damning that the Forsaken took pains to ensure the biological weapons would function on the living instead of focusing on shipping out an anti-undead agent.
Incidentally, I like how this guy totally glosses over how the humans of Lordaeron were actually keeping huge numbers of Orcs in forced labour camps (If I remember Warcraft III correctly).
They weren't forced labor camps, they were internment camps, and they existed because, quite frankly, the Alliance didn't know what the hell to do with these guys. Portal's gone, so they can't send them home. Can't let them run wild or the genocide might start up again. Kill 'em all and let Go-er, the Light sort 'em out? It was debated, but most of the Alliance leaders didn't want to go there. By all accounts the orcs pretty much just sat on their asses all day or in some cases performed menial tasks for whatever garrison they happened to be attached to. The Alliance simply hadn't resolved a course of action when Thrall went on his prison-breaking spree.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ghost Rider »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Kuja wrote:One thing that's fascinating (and a little creepy) is that a couple folks have crawled out of the woodwork trying to put forth the idea that the Forsaken are in the right for developing plagues and such activity to defend themselves against the bigots who want to destroy them for being different.

It's interesting from a psychological standpoint to see the firsthand effect of people being told that "you're the good guys" over and over again with reinforcement. People will leap to some bloody insane conclusions.
I hate to tell you this, but the Forsaken can actually be considered legitimate in using biological weapons to protect themselves: a lot of approaches to political theory advocate that the primary objective of any sovereign state is state survival, and the Forsaken are an extremely young and fragile state in extremely close proximity to people who would otherwise wipe them out without much of a second thought. I don't think this makes them right (certainly because they're only doing it because they're evil, not because of legitimate political reasons), no more than I think the Blood Elves were right for chaining up a Naaru (or however you spell it) so that the Blood Knights could emulate the abilities of paladins.

Incidentally, I like how this guy totally glosses over how the humans of Lordaeron were actually keeping huge numbers of Orcs in forced labour camps (If I remember Warcraft III correctly).
Except they used said weapons on their own allies in no attempt to protect themselves, but to try and kill their favored opponent...oops sorry if you got in the way. No warning, nothing to their allies and Slyvannus still went and protested "I'm innocent! Sure I knew he was up to something and had my willing approval, but I didn't mean to kill you guys....yet." More then a few times the Forsaken claim they will kill the living, and the Scourge.Note, not the Alliance...the living. Blizzard has no fucking clue how to create a state that is rebellious but distinctly allied. They might as well go "And in Warcraft 4...the Forsaken will become the newest enemy!"

And the humans did keep the Orcs in camps, course that was that or kill them. Honestly, WoW tries to go not all evil, and not all good. But fail when major heads of state are involved in huge acts and go "but they only speak for themselves!!! And their armies..."
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Kuja wrote:Point taken, I hadn't considered it on the nationalist side of the issue.
That's political realism, not nationalism. In any case I don't intend to try and justify the Forsaken any further, because their entire theme is evil mad scientists. The Horde is just plain miraculous in how badly handled it is. On the surface, its willingness to take the Forsaken under its proverbial wing should be amongst the most noble acts int he world, but it just makes them look like dorks and clearly hasn't been followed up.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ghost Rider »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Kuja wrote:Point taken, I hadn't considered it on the nationalist side of the issue.
That's political realism, not nationalism. In any case I don't intend to try and justify the Forsaken any further, because their entire theme is evil mad scientists. The Horde is just plain miraculous in how badly handled it is. On the surface, its willingness to take the Forsaken under its proverbial wing should be amongst the most noble acts int he world, but it just makes them look like dorks and clearly hasn't been followed up.
That's the saddest part. If played correctly(Which Blizz hasn't), taking in the Forsaken should have been taking in a bunch of deposed humans in their worst time. An act akin to forgivness. Instead we see that the Forsaken are monsters out to destroy everyone else, like the Scourge, but the Horde go "But we need allies!". Really, bad writing on Blizzard's part.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Civil War Man »

I'm personally of the opinion that even if Varian were right about everything, the fact that he's a massive douchebag does no favors for his cause.

Of course, if it were up to me, Thrall would be forced to resign and a new Warchief put into place (after feeding Garrosh Hellscream through a woodchipper to make sure the title isn't given to him).

Varian would be returned to Algaz Island to be forgotten and a new regent would be put into place until Anduin Wrynn is old enough to be King (I have suggested Thassarian, who manages to be one of the most sympathetic characters of the expansion in spite of being a sadistic undead horror. Also, he might be able to introduce the concept of operational security to the Alliance, since the Ebon Blade seems to be the only faction that isn't being constantly infiltrated by something).

Then Fandral Staghelm would be fed through the same woodchipper as Garrosh Hellscream and Tyrande told to get off her ass and make herself useful for a change.

Then depose whoever the Blood Elf guy is and put Kael'thas' headless corpse in power for giggles. Magister's Terrace was merely a setback.

As for Sylvanas, maybe tell her to get the Forsaken to play nice or someone will hijack another part of Tempest Keep and turn Undercity into Exodar Mark II.

Velen would be told to get off his ass and fix up the Exodar. If they're going to make it their permanent capital, they may as well actually fix the gaping holes in the floor. At least give it a new paint job.

That's all my whinging over the faction leaders. The rest can be left alone on account of either being a) competent, or b) in charge of Brewfest.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Ghost Rider wrote:That's the saddest part. If played correctly(Which Blizz hasn't), taking in the Forsaken should have been taking in a bunch of deposed humans in their worst time. An act akin to forgivness. Instead we see that the Forsaken are monsters out to destroy everyone else, like the Scourge, but the Horde go "But we need allies!". Really, bad writing on Blizzard's part.
It's pretty terrible, especially given that we know that they can write when necessary: Warcraft III was actually a pretty good story up until the Night Elf campaign. They've clearly made a lot of decisions purely out of regard for aesthetics and game mechanics, and while this is not necessarily a bad thing - the game needs to be playable, after all - as a result the setting suffers. Can you imagine if, in the lead-up to the release of Burning Crusade, they had given the Horde the Draenei ('lost blue guys from space' is pretty close to 'lost green guys from another dimension', after all) and gave the Alliance the Blood Elves? While it would be a little difficult to swallow, it would have actually added some shades of grey and made the Alliance less 'we are the good guys, check it out' and the Horde less 'terrible decision makers as a matter of policy'.

I wonder, does WoW share writers with WIII? It probably does, but it seems so unlikely that they'd completely fuck up Thrall like they have.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by GuppyShark »

I was really annoyed that Sylvanas got off without any repurcussions. As noted, as a Horde player you know that the Forsaken intend to wipe out *all* life. But for obvious gameplay reasons, the net effect of the Wrathgate was absolutely dick.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Civil War Man wrote:Of course, if it were up to me, Thrall would be forced to resign and a new Warchief put into place (after feeding Garrosh Hellscream through a woodchipper to make sure the title isn't given to him).
Whats wrong with Thrall, hes made bad choices but he really has no love for War against the Alliance or most others.. Gorrash DOES need to beset into a woodchipper, I'll agree to that, But if we kick out the forsaken, and keep things mostly between Trolls Orcs and Taurens, those three are relatively peaceful as long as they are left alone.
Ford Prefect wrote:Can you imagine if, in the lead-up to the release of Burning Crusade, they had given the Horde the Draenei ('lost blue guys from space' is pretty close to 'lost green guys from another dimension', after all) and gave the Alliance the Blood Elves? While it would be a little difficult to swallow, it would have actually added some shades of grey and made the Alliance less 'we are the good guys, check it out' and the Horde less 'terrible decision makers as a matter of policy'.
You would be surprised how often Iv'e thought of the same scenario. The game designers think the Horde is "bad" and the alliance is "Good" and do everything they can to reinforce that... But really, to make things interesting you have to introduce at least some amount of ambiguity.

I still say the Forsaken should simply be written off, we KNOW now that they have nothing but contempt for the living and they don't exactly offer much to the horde in terms of PR. As they are now, the Forsaken are open step away from mustache twirling Saturday morning cartoon villains. If Blizzard had one wit of originality they would have made the Forsaken much more 'diverse'. There should be all sorts of "undead" dwarfs, gnomes, anyone of the alliance who got hit by the Plague during WCIII, there should be living humans as well, people 'cast out' from the alliance for being family of the forsaken. You could have made them MUCH more ambiguous as well as sympathetic, but no no... For now we have evil cackling nogoodnicks and there is nothing to be done but git rid of them from the Horde.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Stofsk »

What makes the Blood Elves evil, if I may ask? I only ask that because it seems that the two groups are superficially divided into 'good' and 'bad' camps. I haven't played WoW, although I bought the battlechest edition against my will, but I have played WC3 and the story there is, the Blood Elves remained faithful to the Alliance but the Alliance didn't remain the same to them. So they ended up leaving to forge their own destiny.

Why the hell did they go to the Horde? Even if it's the New Horde... the ties to the Alliance would seem to take precedence.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Covenant »

Honestly, the New Horde as of Warcraft III was a violent yet generally honorable group, while the Alliance was forced into moustache-twirling evil to create the necessary sub-faction tension of Blood Elves and Arthas and racial prejudice against Orcs. So if they had continued that into WoW, you would have had the honorable and good, but brutal and difficult-to-reform new Barbarian Empire of the Horde and the internally stable but morally bankrupt Alliance. One seeking to shed their past like post-WWII Germany, and the other trying to regain their soul, like America of the 1950's.

Instead we get the least creative solution. Undead are written into the horde by Writer's Fiat. Instead of joining the nature-attuned Tauren and reformed Orcs, the Night Elves join the Dwarves, High Elves, and Humans--who they share no kinship with. Less, in fact, than the Horde. This sets things up with the Horde looking braindead and incompetant, while the Alliance seems just run by a 'few bad apples.'

The better solution would have been the nuanced approach presented by WCIII, assigning the Night Elves to the New Horde as allies--not members--to help work with the shamanistic new Orcs and the inarguably good Tauren to restore a land blasted by demonfire and war. On the other side, the Humans would ally with their once-kinsmen, the Forsaken, and together seek a way to regain the dignity and honor that was lost back when the Wars made them as vicious as their demon-blooded foes, a corruption of the soul of their own creation and now symbolized by Arthas. The Forsaken, mistrusted and barely hanging onto their fragment of a kingdom, would in many ways lay the pattern for a tale of regained humanity both literally and figuratively.

Then when the new races come, the Humans get the Blood Elves back, and the Horde extends a hand to the Pandaren like in the WCIII expansion, and you have a faction of primal forces struggling to find a new identity--something the Orcs, Tauren, and Elves all share--and a faction of people like us, trying to become as good as they thought they once were.

That'd be a good story. We don't have that. So I suppose whatever you want to draw from WoW is correct--but remember that both sides get their own telling of the story. As a guy who played WoW until 60 then quit, as Horde I had way more than my fill of missions where the Alliance was fucking around with the Horde as well.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Stofsk wrote:What makes the Blood Elves evil, if I may ask?
They do a lot of questionable stuff. You can find a gnome sweatshop underneath a tailor in the Blood Elf capital, and the whole premise of the Blood Knights was built upon them having captured and enslaved a being of pure Light and were feeding off it. They're not all bad, there's a ranger faction who are pretty good and used to get on the cases of the Blood Knights all the time, but as a rule the Blood Elves are a bunch of assjolish junkies. They are pretty attractive assholish junkies, though.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Stofsk wrote:What makes the Blood Elves evil, if I may ask? I only ask that because it seems that the two groups are superficially divided into 'good' and 'bad' camps. I haven't played WoW, although I bought the battlechest edition against my will, but I have played WC3 and the story there is, the Blood Elves remained faithful to the Alliance but the Alliance didn't remain the same to them. So they ended up leaving to forge their own destiny.

Why the hell did they go to the Horde? Even if it's the New Horde... the ties to the Alliance would seem to take precedence.
They are "evi" because Blizzard said so.. its the same damn stupid stuff as others... You are right.. In truth The BE should have either gone back to the Alliance, or simply start their own faction, they have no ties or love of anyone in the horde... They where shoehorned in for the sole purpose of balancing out the Horde because it was already decided that the Dreni would be going to the Alliance, which, as stated above, is ALSO something that shouldn't have been done.,
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Ok, I admit to once having a Forsaken Rogue named "Schrodinger" hey catlike, and neither dead nor alive....
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Minischoles »

Stofsk wrote:What makes the Blood Elves evil, if I may ask? I only ask that because it seems that the two groups are superficially divided into 'good' and 'bad' camps. I haven't played WoW, although I bought the battlechest edition against my will, but I have played WC3 and the story there is, the Blood Elves remained faithful to the Alliance but the Alliance didn't remain the same to them. So they ended up leaving to forge their own destiny.

Why the hell did they go to the Horde? Even if it's the New Horde... the ties to the Alliance would seem to take precedence.
The two groups are essentially divided into good and bad groups, and to be honest I think its mainly to do with the whole Lord of the Rings thing that was going around. You expect the normal human looking people to be the good guys, and the green skinned tusked orcs are the bad guys. Both sides were once written as ambiguous, both did good and bad things against each other, but for WoW the story was really toned down and simplified.

As for the Blood elves, they joined the New Horde simply because they're outcasts from the Alliance and so they joined the Horde purely out of necessity. They aren't really liked (you start at neutral rep in game with everyone but the Undead) but theres the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' thing going on.
As for being evil, well they have done some evil things (like as pointed out capturing a Naaru, following Kael'thas) but it really all comes back to the Sunwell being destroyed and so they lost their source of magic and turned into magic junkies. So they're not really evil, like most junkies they're just after another fix.

Now the undead (especially as written in WOTLK) are very evil. Its known what they're planning, hell as a player you actively help them develop and test the plague that kills the people at the Wrathgate, and even as early as level 6-7 you're helping the RAS use plagues on the Humans (theres a chained alliance prison in the Brill inn that you poison). But again its just Thrall taking any allies he can against the Alliance, he pretends to not know about what the Forsaken are doing and basically turns a blind eye to it, because they need the allies.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Covenant »

This can be safely attributed in great part to the "Evil is Ugly, Good is Pretty" idea that is responsible for most people's opinions of how to treat factions in games. Is it ugly and snarly and uses primitive architecture? It must be evil!

Even without the people writing fluff that makes the Horde more evil than they ever were meant to be post WCIII, you'd get the same perceptions. How many people do you think actually read and care about the fluff? Compared to everyone else who just runs through and skims the text to see what they'll get and how to get it fastest? The alliance could eat puppies fried in babyfat and you'd still have most people assuming they're the goodguys just because they're prettier.

And the real reason the Horde got the Blood Elves is that they needed a "pretty" race, as the numbers were skewed in favor of the Alliance, especially Night Elves, in many places because of the pretty factor. It really is a bit of an issue when it comes to balance. Want to make a race rarely used? Just make it ugly and short. Alas, the poor Dwarf.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Lord Revan »

tbh I think Varian is basically a decent guy but is overreacting due to personal history with the orcs (I mean come on he witnessed he's father killed by an orc, Spoiler
well an orc/draenei hybrid
, when he was a kid (don't think the specific age was mentioned) and then there's whole Lo'gosh incedent) and because of it he's too much anti-horde and not enough pro-alliance atm(whether he'll change anytime I won't speculate on).


though I'd love to see that this fanatical hate was due influence by Yogg-Saron or cultists and at some point he'll go "ok I don't like the orcs nor do I trust them that much, but in order to defeat the Lich King, the alliance must ally with them, for now". (this would help to keep the conflict (he doesn't forgive the orcs he just disides it's wiser to put that conflict on a back burner when the war with the Scourge is still there), while not making the factions look like total morons).
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Oskuro »

Hmmmm, I smell a lot of factional antagonism coming out of these posts.

Being a (role)player who has characters on both factions, I don't think any of the factions are right or wrong, they are just mainly stupid and self centered. I was expecting Blizzard to continue the thread of the Orc redemption by portraying the Alliance as corrupt and decadent (The whole Defias/Onyxia plots) and the Horde as outsiders trying to find their place (pretty much all the Horde starter quests).
Now it feels like they are pandering to the players, trying to make the Horde more badass and the Alliance more righteous.... Or something, I'm not really sure about where they are heading, and the inconsistencies are alarming.

So yeah, Tauren, Gnomes and possibly Dwarves are still true to their concept and somewhat interesting. The rest are just wish fullfilment fantasies for the players, and not very good ones.

But then again, that's just my opinion.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Lancer »

Stofsk wrote:What makes the Blood Elves evil, if I may ask? I only ask that because it seems that the two groups are superficially divided into 'good' and 'bad' camps. I haven't played WoW, although I bought the battlechest edition against my will, but I have played WC3 and the story there is, the Blood Elves remained faithful to the Alliance but the Alliance didn't remain the same to them. So they ended up leaving to forge their own destiny.

Why the hell did they go to the Horde? Even if it's the New Horde... the ties to the Alliance would seem to take precedence.
The Blood Elf paladin quests invariably involve some sort of desecration of holy material for shits and giggles. It's not like the Death Knights, who have an actual military objective and no choice in the matter when they slaughter everything in the Western Plaguelands. You're killing your way through to steal some Holy water out of spite, and you do so with psychotic glee.

Also, Garrithos from WCIII did his best to sabotage human non-human relations. He drove Kael'thas to seek out aid from the Illidari (the Naga), then accused him and all the other Blood Elves who had rejoined the Alliance with treason and imprisoned them pending execution. After such an experience, they'd be understandably antagonistic to the (at the time) human-dominated Alliance.
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Re: WoW: Is Varian Right?

Post by Oskuro »

Stofsk wrote:What makes the Blood Elves evil, if I may ask?
They are not evil, they are more along the lines of terribly self-centered and arrogant, thus their losses have made them horribly bitter, wich fits with the usual portrayal of Elves in fantasy, I must add.

The in-story rationale for joining the Horde is shaky at best, based on the idea that the Horde will take any outcasts (as they did with the Forsaken). Also, Sylvannas Windrunner was a popular hero among the High Elves (sister to Alleria Windrunner, from WC2), so she might have had some political influence over the decision.

Regardless, we all know the true reason for the Blood Elves: So Horde players can have pretty characters. To wich I have to say: FUCK THEM AND GIVE ME MY PANDAREN!

Also, Varian is wrong, and so is Thrall. Why didn't any of them invite the other leaders (Save Sylvannas who had to show her hot new model) to the pre-WotLK meeting? Yeah, Varian had his adventuring partners, but where were Magni, Velen, TyrannideTyrande and the Gnome King? Why didn't Thrall invite Cairne, Vol'Jin or <insert name of BE leader>? Why doesn't anyone listen to Cairne? He's so huggable.
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