Space Marine weapons questions

[Elheru Aran]

Hey, just a couple of questions right now but I'll be sure to post more--

Firstly, how many different 'patterns' of bolters have there been throughout the Astartes' history? Pictures or links would be especially appreciated here.

Secondly, why don't Devastator squads get autocannons as a heavy weapons option? It seems like it'd be simple enough to kitbash a Marine-portable autocannon from an IG 'cannon. Would a Marines player be able to get away with doing something along these lines?

[Khaat]

1. There have been (roughly) two variations on the basic bolter (or "bolt gun"):
the original, long and lean, with the forward banana-clip and
the new one, wide and boxy, with the mid-mounted clip
(sorry, no pix)

2. "Game balance" (which is odd, since it isn't). Devastator squads should be the normal-option squad heavy-weapons troopers concentrated into mission-specific squads, but that was at least two editions ago. Depending on where/who you play, you might get away with the change, but a) not at GW Tournaments or b) with persnickety gamers.

[Venator]

There's a few variations of the bolter, but most "currently" used ones are probably quite similar. The one mentioned in the old Codex, supposedly the most common, is the Godwin pattern.

As for Autocannons, I'm not sure - Chaos use them for Havocs (Devastator analogues) and as a squad option. In-universe, their disuse by Loyalists could be considered a doctrinal change as part of the Codex Astares.

[andrewgpaul]

Space Wolves used to be able to get autocannons in their support squads in 2nd edition, but hardly anyone used the option, since there was no mini for it.

As for boltgun pattersn, purely looking at the miniatures, the major designs have been:

"beaky" box set boltgun - forward-mounted magazine.

2nd edition boltgun - 'casing' over body of the gun, and no obious ejection port (alhtough that might simply be areflection of the moulding process)

3rd/4th/5th edition boltgun - the current model.ribbed handgrip forward of the magazine, taller but narrower than the previous one, with some sort of display on the gun - an ammo counter, perhaps?

the Sisters of Battle boltgun.

[Lord Revan]

isn't the sister's bolter "just" the same basic design as marine bolter only smaller (seeing as it's used by normal humans)?

[Falkenhayn]

Secondly, why don't Devastator squads get autocannons as a heavy weapons option? It seems like it'd be simple enough to kitbash a Marine-portable autocannon from an IG 'cannon. Would a Marines player be able to get away with doing something along these lines?

You can get away with anything you want on the tabletop if the other guy says so. In practical terms, you'd probably pay the points cost from Codex:CSM to carry one.

GW though, wants to show that the IoM has more high technology goodies thanks to greater infrastructure than the Traitor Marines. The kind of infrastructure that produces Plasma Cannons and the logistics to supply them in quantity. It's a "fluff" thing, which is sometimes good (Chaos Codex 3.5) and sometimes bad (Long Fangs).

[Connor MacLeod]

In purely fluff terms, I gather the idea is that the kinds of guns can pretty much vary dramatically just as lasguns do, but they have a certain (limited?) standardized kinds of ammo that all guns can (in theory) fire. Broadly there ARE two scales: Space Marine and "normal" human (Thanks in no small part to Dark Heresy, but this was an inconsistently applied issue in the fluff and novels as it was.) On top of that you have "cased" bolter ammunition (bolters that eject casings) and "caseless" (that don't eject casings but rely on the rocket propellant for velocity, but its also possible they use some "caseless" form of propellant with the rocket as well - its never specified which/how.)

I know the Astartes use both "cased" and "caseless" variants (Space Wolves like Ragnar used casesless, while other astartes likethe Soul Drinkers and Grey Knights have bolters that generate tremenodus recoil.) Humans seem to mostly use the "non recoil" variety but a few bolt weapons have significant recoil plus the rocket.

We also know bolt guns and bolt pistols both use the same kinds of ammo - so the only distinction there seems to be muzzle velocity (range as far as I can gather, but also kinetic power) - bolters have longer barrels of course.

The sororitas issue is kinda iffy. I'm not sure whether or not they use "space marine" weapons or normal human ones. Astartes bolters are supposedly much bigger/bulkier and heavier, but the power armour of the sororitas should give them augmented strength. But just having read Faith and Fire, power armored sisters have shared their wepaons with non power armored ones.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for Devastators, I don't recall offhand what their options for heavy weapons are, but I think they have heavy bolters, so at least in-game the fluff doesnt matter. As far as fluff goes, there's not really a whole lot of difference between autocannon and heavy bolters except propulsion method and (prehaps) recoil - both fire large scale high explosive ammo.

But like with the "Why dont' Astartes use lasers" idea, I think its purely a matter of choice amongst the Chapters, or maybe its "codex doctrine" dogma in some cases.

[andrewgpaul]

Do you mean "why don't the Astartes use lasguns", or why don't they use lasers in general? Because a goodly amount of their vehicles use lasers as their main armament - Land Raiders, Predator Annihilators, Thunderhawk Gunships (and the Thunderhawk Annihilator variant has, I think, an even bigger laser for shooting up titans).

It's probably the shorter logistics trail - you can fit quite a few spare bolter rounds on a 3-mile-long Strike Cruiser, so there's not as much of an issue with blazing away - and quite possibly the psychological effect of your friends exploding when they get shot by Marines.

[Falkenhayn]

Astartes and CSM heavy weapon options are largely the same, Lascannons, Missiles Launchers and Heavy Bolters. However, Astartes get Plasma Cannons, and CSM get Autocannons in addition to the shared three weapon types.

[harbringer]

This is from memory (and an old chaos codex) it must be pointed out :

At the time of the heresy all space marines had the same equipment and many chapters were trialing new equipment such as assault cannon and plasma guns. when the chaos chapters left the imperium they reverted to tried and true designs that were robust and effective so new designs with teething problems were not used and simply exchanged with equipment that could be relied upon in any occasion. Some equipment was deemed to useful to ditch thus terminator suits and titans still were used but needed massive effort to maintain and were the focus of the dark mechanicus. Later the imperium managed to sort the flaws in its new kit and those loyal chapters began being issued with it. As such you could make a case for obsolete equipment being issued but it would need to be ok with your opponent and you might have to forgo things like plasma cannon or assault cannon to get away with it (if you roll a lot of 1's this might not be a bad thing).

[Feil]

The sororitas issue is kinda iffy. I'm not sure whether or not they use "space marine" weapons or normal human ones. Astartes bolters are supposedly much bigger/bulkier and heavier, but the power armour of the sororitas should give them augmented strength. But just having read Faith and Fire, power armored sisters have shared their wepaons with non power armored ones.

Simple comparison of relative body size makes it obvious that most Astartes weapons would be either used very differently or unusable for Sisters of Battle. The simple action of gripping the handle would be impossible for a human-sized hand, so specialized versions would be necessary even if they retained nearly identical capabilities and fired the same ordinance. Issues of recoil would also be significant: sisters of battle have far less contact area with the ground and a fraction of the mass of a Space Marine. Similarly, since the strength of a device tends to be proportional to its cross sectional area. Having, if one chooses a slim depiction of Marines and a bulky depiction of Sisters, roughly four times the cross sectional area of a Sister of Battle, a Space Marine should have at least four times her strength. Furthermore, nearly all art and miniatures depict them with weapons scaled appropriately (insofar as 40k is concerned) for their size.

[The Dark]

isn't the sister's bolter "just" the same basic design as marine bolter only smaller (seeing as it's used by normal humans)?

The Sororitas use a Godwyn-Deaz pattern bolter. The Astartes mostly use a Mk Vb Godwyn pattern (although the Dark Angels use a Mk IIIa Godwyn instead).

Other patterns I remember running across:
Mk I Crusader (Rogue Trader)
Mk III Crusade (2nd edition)
Nostra (Gauntlets of Ultramar are noted as having a "Modified Nostra" type bolter)
Mars Pattern (Imperial Armour; discontinued in M32)

[Connor MacLeod]

Simple comparison of relative body size makes it obvious that most Astartes weapons would be either used very differently or unusable for Sisters of Battle. The simple action of gripping the handle would be impossible for a human-sized hand, so specialized versions would be necessary even if they retained nearly identical capabilities and fired the same ordinance.

True, but as mentioned this depends on the author pre DH. IIRC in Eisenhorn he was wielding a SM bolt pistol without much problem. While in "Bleeding Chalice" a human inquisitor could barely manage a soul Drinker bolt pistol. In Inquisition War we had, I think, humans using SM bolters (and Lex using human bolters).

Issues of recoil would also be significant: sisters of battle have far less contact area with the ground and a fraction of the mass of a Space Marine. Similarly, since the strength of a device tends to be proportional to its cross sectional area.

Depending on the kind of bolter. Some of them have little to no recoil (again, inquisiton War)

Having, if one chooses a slim depiction of Marines and a bulky depiction of Sisters, roughly four times the cross sectional area of a Sister of Battle, a Space Marine should have at least four times her strength. Furthermore, nearly all art and miniatures depict them with weapons scaled appropriately (insofar as 40k is concerned) for their size.

As a rule I'm leery of using the miniatures for any sort of scaling purposes. I usually feel I'm pushing things as it is scaling some of the drawings and diagrams (since they are by nature a carbon copy of the models.).

[Connor MacLeod]

Do you mean "why don't the Astartes use lasguns", or why don't they use lasers in general? Because a goodly amount of their vehicles use lasers as their main armament - Land Raiders, Predator Annihilators, Thunderhawk Gunships (and the Thunderhawk Annihilator variant has, I think, an even bigger laser for shooting up titans).

Man portable lasers otherthan lascannons. There are hints of such, but they aren't common. Lasers can carry alot of advantages over a bolt weapon (And we know the Guard can use a combination of laser, projectile, and even bolt weapons, so why not the Astartes?)

It's probably the shorter logistics trail - you can fit quite a few spare bolter rounds on a 3-mile-long Strike Cruiser, so there's not as much of an issue with blazing away - and quite possibly the psychological effect of your friends exploding when they get shot by Marines.

Where is it said that Strike cruisers are 3 mile long? The only value i've seen is that they're between the size of a Light Cruiser and Heavy cruiser.

And lasweapons can, with the right settings, blow someone apart similar ot a bolter. (This also depends on the depiction of bolters they go with. Some will blow the person entirely apart, some may only blow apart the head or a limb, and some may blow apart the torso. And some may just vaporize the person.) Astartes would likely have bigger lasweapons anyhow (which would have greater punch also) and quite liekly use heavier powerpacks (like hotshots)

Astartes and CSM heavy weapon options are largely the same, Lascannons, Missiles Launchers and Heavy Bolters. However, Astartes get Plasma Cannons, and CSM get Autocannons in addition to the shared three weapon types.

An autocannon is pretty much a "multi-role" weapon anyhow.. its served both anti-personnel and anti-armour roles (at least light Anti armor). Autocannons could also carry more powerful shells than say a heavy bolter (since they don't need to include the propellant in the shell), possibly at the cost of lower velocity (a bigger shell and lack of rocket-assistance.)

[andrewgpaul]

Where is it said that Strike cruisers are 3 mile long? The only value i've seen is that they're between the size of a Light Cruiser and Heavy cruiser.

Some (rather tenuous, I suppose) assumptions. Also, it appears I managed to say miles when I meant kilometres.

1) the Starship Dimensions website lists the Cobra destroyer as roughly a mile long. a Strike Cruiser is ~2-3 times the length (going by the miniatures, and assuming the ships are all in scale with each other)

2) In the 40k Ships [and Photoshop Request] thread, this link was posted, giving a Dauntless strike cruiser as being ~2km long. A Strike Cruiser is basically a Dauntless with a different prow and some tail fins.

So, it appears I was erroneous - using the above assumptions, I should have said 2km, not 3 miles. Still, only out by a factor of 2.4 and still plenty of room for spare bolter rounds.

[Venator]

2) In the 40k Ships [and Photoshop Request] thread, this link was posted, giving a Dauntless strike cruiser as being ~2km long. A Strike Cruiser is basically a Dauntless with a different prow and some tail fins,

As I mentioned in that thread, the scaling of the original image is horrendously off; the Cobra is listed as being a third shorter than the given 1.6km length.

[Elheru Aran]

2. "Game balance" (which is odd, since it isn't). Devastator squads should be the normal-option squad heavy-weapons troopers concentrated into mission-specific squads, but that was at least two editions ago. Depending on where/who you play, you might get away with the change, but a) not at GW Tournaments or b) with persnickety gamers.

How is giving Devastators an autocannon upsetting game balance, especially if models with that loadout aren't officially issued by GW and have to be custom-built by players? Are they not supposed to have so many options or some such bullshit?

Another question: why do Terminators only get heavy flamers and assault cannons? I understand that they're primarily for close-quarters dirty fighting, in which case they don't much need the longer-ranged weapons, but I can imagine that, say, a multimelta could be quite useful for them, or, hell, even some form of twin-linked shotgun. Quad-shotgun? Tongue-in-cheek aside, I can see using them as a rather useful heavy alternative to Devastators-- moving around and blasting shit with lascannons, missiles (they already have those Cyclone launchers), and whatnot, without needing to find a safe place to move to and then wait a whole turn without letting loose their fiery death. I could see that being nice...

[andrewgpaul]

2) In the 40k Ships [and Photoshop Request] thread, this link was posted, giving a Dauntless strike cruiser as being ~2km long. A Strike Cruiser is basically a Dauntless with a different prow and some tail fins,

As I mentioned in that thread, the scaling of the original image is horrendously off; the Cobra is listed as being a third shorter than the given 1.6km length.

So, it appears that page changes miles to km? That nudges my rough guess at a Strike Cruiser's length to being 2 miles, then.

[Imperial Overlord]

As I mentioned in that thread, the scaling of the original image is horrendously off; the Cobra is listed as being a third shorter than the given 1.6km length.

Cobras have been stated to be as small as 600m and as long as 1.6km.

[Venator]

Really? I've only ever heard the 1.6km figure... but of course there's inconsistencies everywhere in 40k 'fluff'.

[Shadowtraveler]

Man portable lasers otherthan lascannons. There are hints of such, but they aren't common. Lasers can carry alot of advantages over a bolt weapon (And we know the Guard can use a combination of laser, projectile, and even bolt weapons, so why not the Astartes?)

Bulk, perhaps? More powerful laser weapons use either a bulky backpack for power (hellguns) or magazines with a few shots (Lascannons).

[Imperial Overlord]

Really? I've only ever heard the 1.6km figure... but of course there's inconsistencies everywhere in 40k 'fluff'.

Really. The 1km for the Cobra is by far the most common figure. Given that each class of ship is built differently at different places and presumably Technia Grandia can fit everything into a smaller hull than a backward worlds like Shitholia Maxima, most ship sizes discrepancies are rather easily dealt within the fluff.

As for why Space Marines use bolters as their standard infantry weapon, bolters beat lasguns and slug throwers hands down when it comes down to killing power and Astartes gets the best. Specialty ammo adds to the flexibility of bolters and the existence of a number of hard to kill xeno species which bolters will put down (Tyranid life forms and Orks, to name two examples which are found in huge numbers) means they're the ideal choice for the Astartes. Note that the Astartes due use slug throwers and lasweapons when they're the best for the job, such as with support weapons such assault cannons and lascannons.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't remember any precise calcs for the cobra ever. The smallest I have heard for any ship is half a kilometer and that was a Space Marine ship from Angels of darkness. Never heard of the 1.5/mile figure for a Cobra, nor the 1 km figure. or anything like that. Best I can figure is that it might be an approximation based on the presumed size of a frigate (we know they get to be around 2 km or so on the higher end.)

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I'm not sure about its canonicity, but take a look at post #6 in this thread. It contains a numer of interresting bolter variants.