Alberta legislature proposes evolution-optional schooling

[TithonusSyndrome]

CBC

Evolution classes optional under proposed Alberta law
Last Updated: Thursday, April 30, 2009 | 4:09 PM MT Comments1567Recommend392
CBC News
Education Minister Dave Hancock supports a new bill that would require schools to notify parents in advance about subject matter that deals 'explicitly with religion, sexuality or sexual orientation.'

A controversial Alberta bill will enshrine into law the rights of parents to pull their children out of classes discussing the topics of evolution and homosexuality.

The new rules, which would require schools to notify parents in advance of "subject-matter that deals explicitly with religion, sexuality or sexual orientation," is buried in a bill that extends human rights to homosexuals. Parents can ask for their child to be excluded from the discussion.

"This government supports a very, very fundamental right and that is parental rights with respect to education," said Premier Ed Stelmach.

Although Stelmach has confirmed the bill will give parents the authority to exclude their kids from classes if the topic of evolution comes up, Education Minister Dave Hancock said it won't change anything.

"With respect to values, religion and sex education have always been areas of concern for parents, and they've always been areas parents have had the right to be notified about and to exempt their students from," Hancock said.
Debate over Alberta's international image

Frank Bruseker, the head of the Alberta Teachers' Association, is meeting with Hancock on Monday to raise his concerns.

"If parents don't want that kind of education for their children they have a couple of options," Bruseker said. "One would be home schooling or private school. So for a public school to start excluding based on religious preference, I think is a mistake."

Bruseker said it would be difficult for teachers to avoid the topic of evolution in science or geography classes.

The proposed legislation has touched off a debate about just what kind of image Alberta's government is trying to create around the world.

NDP Leader Brian Mason likened the bill to Alberta recently using a photo of a British beach in an ad to promote the province.

"This government just spent $25 million of taxpayers money to give Alberta a new image. All they've done is make Alberta look like Northumberland and sound like Arkansas," Mason said.

The new legislation could be passed within a few weeks.

Seriously, what the fuck? I know that the meme gets around that Alberta is the Canadian equivalent of Texas, but on the global stage that still makes it about as liberal as Montana or some other comparable state. Nobody even fucking CARES about religion in Alberta. NOBODY. There's a handful of moderates and that's it. Everyone else is too busy making money and living it up to give two shits about church, they're probably working a double shift at the rigs on Sundays anyways. What kind of emasculated America-idolizing eunuch in the provincial legislature thought this would be a good idea?

[Samuel]

What can I say? The US is contagious- the Turks were first, now you got creationists.

[Darth Wong]

Alberta is Canada's backward shithole. Always has been, and they think they've changed because they've got oil money now, but they haven't. Sorry, but oil money can't buy you class and sophistication. The Arab oil sheiks proved that.

[Singular Intellect]

Heard about this partipicating with the discussion groups with CFI Calgary; to say we're pissed is something of an understatement.

We're currently trying to figure out means to get this more publicly noticed and illustrated as a incredibly stupid idea. Right now, our current plan is to get people phoning their local MLA representatives and bitch big time. Supposedly it can take as little as seven phone calls to get their attention.

[Aaron]

Seriously, what the fuck? I know that the meme gets around that Alberta is the Canadian equivalent of Texas, but on the global stage that still makes it about as liberal as Montana or some other comparable state. Nobody even fucking CARES about religion in Alberta. NOBODY. There's a handful of moderates and that's it. Everyone else is too busy making money and living it up to give two shits about church, they're probably working a double shift at the rigs on Sundays anyways. What kind of emasculated America-idolizing eunuch in the provincial legislature thought this would be a good idea?

There are actually a bunch of religious communes out in the sticks by Red Deer, wouldn't be surprised if they home school though. There is always someone willing to back this silliness in any Province though, anyone else remember the hubbub over faith based schools in Ontario during the last Provincial election?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Alberta is Canada's backward shithole. Always has been, and they think they've changed because they've got oil money now, but they haven't. Sorry, but oil money can't buy you class and sophistication. The Arab oil sheiks proved that.

Alberta has a lack of sophistication; just about any maritime province has that AND poverty. I'm pretty sure that puts them ahead of Alberta in the race for #1 shittiest province. Half the reason the people here are intolerable is the fact that they're high-strung Newfies who consider being forced to leave Newfoundland to be the greatest insult.

[Artemas]

It's interesting that Alberta actually has a higher percentage of non-religious people (24%) than Canada as a whole (16%) or Ontario (16%). I imagine that this measure is being considered more because of poorly educated rural types, and their lobby, rather than the more cosmopolitan urban population at large, but thats pretty typical.

We're currently trying to figure out means to get this more publicly noticed and illustrated as a incredibly stupid idea. Right now, our current plan is to get people phoning their local MLA representatives and bitch big time. Supposedly it can take as little as seven phone calls to get their attention.

Thats probably how this thing got started to begin with.

[General Zod]

"With respect to values, religion and sex education have always been areas of concern for parents, and they've always been areas parents have had the right to be notified about and to exempt their students from," Hancock said.
Debate over Alberta's international image

Anyone want to break it to this fuckwit that evolution doesn't actually have anything to do with religion?

[Terralthra]

Anyone want to break it to this fuckwit that evolution doesn't actually have anything to do with religion?

You mean other than evolution directly contradicting the scriptures of Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and basically every other religion with a creation myth (most of them)?

[General Zod]

Anyone want to break it to this fuckwit that evolution doesn't actually have anything to do with religion?

You mean other than evolution directly contradicting the scriptures of Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and basically every other religion with a creation myth (most of them)?

The fact that it contradicts a religious myth does not mean it is a religious subject.

[Darth Wong]

Anyone want to break it to this fuckwit that evolution doesn't actually have anything to do with religion?

You mean other than evolution directly contradicting the scriptures of Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and basically every other religion with a creation myth (most of them)?

Bullshit. Many creation myths actually have Man being related to the animals. In some religious beliefs, animal spirits are divine. In others, humans can be reincarnated as animals, and vice versa. The notion of Man being uniquely divine and separate from the animals is actually quite unusual in religious beliefs, and is principally found in the Jewish religion and its bastard offspring.

[Darth Wong]

Alberta is Canada's backward shithole. Always has been, and they think they've changed because they've got oil money now, but they haven't. Sorry, but oil money can't buy you class and sophistication. The Arab oil sheiks proved that.

Alberta has a lack of sophistication; just about any maritime province has that AND poverty. I'm pretty sure that puts them ahead of Alberta in the race for #1 shittiest province. Half the reason the people here are intolerable is the fact that they're high-strung Newfies who consider being forced to leave Newfoundland to be the greatest insult.

The Maritimes didn't give us the Reform Party.

[Terralthra]

The fact that it contradicts a religious myth does not mean it is a religious subject.

No, but it would explain why religious parents would want to pull their religious children out of the subject. It isn't religious itself, but it certainly has something to do with their religion; specifically, contradicting it.

Bullshit. Many creation myths actually have Man being related to the animals. In some religious beliefs, animal spirits are divine. In others, humans can be reincarnated as animals, and vice versa. The notion of Man being uniquely divine and separate from the animals is actually quite unusual in religious beliefs, and is principally found in the Jewish religion and its bastard offspring.

I did not say anything about Man being uniquely divine or separate from animals. That is only one specific way in which a particular creation myth can be contradicted by evolution. You must hear that one a lot, since you get creationist hate-mail, but I didn't say it. There are many other ways. I said simply that evolution contradicts almost every creation myth.

A myth stating that "animals and humans are related", that "animal spirits can be divine,' or that "animals and humans can reincarnate as each other" can still be contradicted thoroughly by evolution. I don't know of any creation myths that explain that humans came from animals because their environment favored certain characteristics. That would be the only kind not contradicted by evolution. Well, that, and a myth that doesn't try to tell how humans or animals came into being at all.

[Darth Wong]

It's interesting that Alberta actually has a higher percentage of non-religious people (24%) than Canada as a whole (16%) or Ontario (16%).

Where did you get those figures from?

[Darth Wong]

There are actually a bunch of religious communes out in the sticks by Red Deer, wouldn't be surprised if they home school though. There is always someone willing to back this silliness in any Province though, anyone else remember the hubbub over faith based schools in Ontario during the last Provincial election?

Yes, John Tory suggested that people should be able to use something like a voucher system for faith-based private schools and the idea ended up destroying his election campaign even after he backed off and said he was no longer in support of it.

[Darth Wong]

A myth stating that "animals and humans are related", that "animal spirits can be divine,' or that "animals and humans can reincarnate as each other" can still be contradicted thoroughly by evolution.

The contradiction is nowhere near as profound as the contradiction between Judeo-Christian Special Creation and evolution. It could be far more easily papered over as the difference between precise and vague language, and it does not contain the hierarchical distinction which makes so many Christians so dead-set against evolution.

I don't know of any creation myths that explain that humans came from animals because their environment favored certain characteristics. That would be the only kind not contradicted by evolution. Well, that, and a myth that doesn't try to tell how humans or animals came into being at all.

Now you're just being pedantic.

[General Zod]

No, but it would explain why religious parents would want to pull their religious children out of the subject. It isn't religious itself, but it certainly has something to do with their religion; specifically, contradicting it.

That's a rather massive leap in logic there. There's a whole plethora of subjects that contradict religious myths that religious whackaloons don't make any noise about.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Alberta is Canada's backward shithole. Always has been, and they think they've changed because they've got oil money now, but they haven't. Sorry, but oil money can't buy you class and sophistication. The Arab oil sheiks proved that.

Alberta has a lack of sophistication; just about any maritime province has that AND poverty. I'm pretty sure that puts them ahead of Alberta in the race for #1 shittiest province. Half the reason the people here are intolerable is the fact that they're high-strung Newfies who consider being forced to leave Newfoundland to be the greatest insult.

The Maritimes didn't give us the Reform Party.

So they cleaved support for federal conservative parties in this country in half and further made them impotent. This is a bad thing?

[Darth Wong]

So they cleaved support for federal conservative parties in this country in half and further made them impotent. This is a bad thing?

Have you been living in a cave since the 1990s? The Reform Party eventually assimilated the Progressive Conservative Party, removed the "Progressive" part from their name, became the new Conservative Party, and elected Stephen Harper to office by copying the dishonest election tactics of Karl Rove. Thanks a lot, Alberta.

[TithonusSyndrome]

So they cleaved support for federal conservative parties in this country in half and further made them impotent. This is a bad thing?

Have you been living in a cave since the 1990s? The Reform Party eventually assimilated the Progressive Conservative Party, removed the "Progressive" part from their name, became the new Conservative Party, and elected Stephen Harper to office by copying the dishonest election tactics of Karl Rove. Thanks a lot, Alberta.

So the Reform Party should never have served as a wedge in Canadian conservativism for as long as it did, and when a single conservative party emerged at the end of things and returned the number of parties to where it was before this Albertan scourge of yours entered parliament, it was Alberta's fault for... adopting the techniques of a noted American demagogue.

Anyways, this is all goalpost moving at the end of the day. Look, I enjoy a foaming hate-on for this stupid province as much as the next guy, but to call it the "backwards shithole" of Canada is fucking preposterous and suggests you haven't been to, say, Labrador. I'd much rather live in even a relatively backwards part of Alberta than the most enlightened and forward-thinking region of Newfoundland or Nunavut.

[Darth Wong]

So the Reform Party should never have served as a wedge in Canadian conservativism for as long as it did, and when a single conservative party emerged at the end of things and returned the number of parties to where it was before this Albertan scourge of yours entered parliament, it was Alberta's fault for... adopting the techniques of a noted American demagogue.

Nice spin-doctoring. In reality, the Reform Party drove the entire Canadian conservative movement far to the right. THAT was its net effect.

Anyways, this is all goalpost moving at the end of the day. Look, I enjoy a foaming hate-on for this stupid province as much as the next guy, but to call it the "backwards shithole" of Canada is fucking preposterous and suggests you haven't been to, say, Labrador. I'd much rather live in even a relatively backwards part of Alberta than the most enlightened and forward-thinking region of Newfoundland or Nunavut.

The only one moving goalposts here is you. This is like saying that we can't blast Texas for being America's conservative shithole because there are regions in West Virginia which are worse. You're totally ignoring their effect on politics. Who gives a shit about an isolated area which has little or no effect on national policy? What are you going to do now, demand a formal objective definition of "backward shithole"? Just how much spin-doctoring do you insist on doing here?

[TithonusSyndrome]

Nice spin-doctoring. In reality, the Reform Party drove the entire Canadian conservative movement far to the right. THAT was its net effect.

And in their insistence to follow the Republican Party in lockstep, they run the same risk of alienating the public and withering away, especially given how much less receptive Canadian voters are to anything that seems even remotely like American politics. "Thanks for making Canadian conservativism exhaust itself" may soon be in order in a year or two, I know a lot of people who are getting more than a little fed up with Harper and Stelmach by this point.

Anyways, this is all goalpost moving at the end of the day. Look, I enjoy a foaming hate-on for this stupid province as much as the next guy, but to call it the "backwards shithole" of Canada is fucking preposterous and suggests you haven't been to, say, Labrador. I'd much rather live in even a relatively backwards part of Alberta than the most enlightened and forward-thinking region of Newfoundland or Nunavut.

The only one moving goalposts here is you. This is like saying that we can't blast Texas for being America's conservative shithole because there are regions in West Virginia which are worse.

I said that? Where? I seem to recall saying right in that post that "I enjoy a foaming hate-on" for Alberta and have been regarded as something as an expert with a wealth of firsthand experience. Go ahead, blast away, I'll even share what unique manifestations of contempt I can offer on the subject, but I have the same insistence on giving credit where it is due that you do, and a phrase like "Canada's backwards shithole" makes it sound like it is THE shithole of shitholes within the nation. If that wasn't your intention, then sorry, but in lieu of any qualifiers what was I supposed to assume was the likeliest intention?

You're totally ignoring their effect on politics. Who gives a shit about an isolated area which has little or no effect on national policy? What are you going to do now, demand a formal objective definition of "backward shithole"? Just how much spin-doctoring do you insist on doing here?

I certainly care a LOT, but as I said earlier, if that's what you meant, then I would've appreciated some more clarity. "Backwards shithole" sounds like the sort of place where cousins marry and the bible reigns supreme, which applies more to somewhere like rural Quebec or Newfoundland. As was demonstrated earlier, Alberta cares less for religion than most other provinces and certainly enjoys more multiculturalism than Newfoundland or other shitholes.

You're welcome to rail at this as "hair-splitting" or what have you, but I'm not being facetious or trying to evade a pantsing or anything here - I genuinely find the term "backwards shithole" to carry more connotations of remote regions with low standards of living than of powerful regions that have the ability to disseminate greedy and callous political beliefs into high office, and wouldn't have known you meant otherwise until we cleared it up. It's just all part of using casual terms like "backwards shithole" from time to time.

oh yeah and alberta is rat free which is pretty ill even i gotta admit

[Artemas]

So, Tith beat me to the stats thing, but i'll add this one:

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census0 ... splay=Page

Calgary and Edmonton are the 4th and 6th most ethnically diverse cities in Canada, after Toronto, Vancouver, Abbotsford (this one is arguable). Ottawa is included twice for some reason.

Anyway, Alberta also brought Canadian politics the NDP, so stop ignoring shit that doesn't agree with your world view. A very diverse range of political parties have popped up in Alberta (though quite a few have been pretty wacky), and demonising the entire province because of one of them is silly.

Alberta may have been the backward shithole in 1970, but the demographics (see above) has changed dramatically. It doesn't help that the majority of jobs that have been created by the boom have been general labour, and so the poorly educated people from rural areas from across Canada (not just from Alberta) come here.

Still, the bulk of rural Albertans are not nearly as progressive as their urban counterparts, and nearly a third of Albertans live in rural areas, compared with 10% in Ontario. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of people in the province live in major urban centers, and large, ethnically diverse cities typically have a thriving culture.

[Darth Wong]

For fuck's sake, why would you use URL codes for a super-long URL? If you're going to use those codes, use them properly and dress the link. Otherwise, just post the raw URL and let the software abbreviate it automatically. I had to edit your post to fix it.

Anyway, if Alberta is so forward-thinking, and less religious than any other province in Canada, then why did they have to be forced by the federal government to allow gay marriage, while other provinces legalized it earlier? For that matter, why did they give birth to the Reform Party? Why do stories like this always come from Alberta?

I've met more than my share of people who say they are not religious because they don't attend church every week, even though the more you talk to them, the more you realize they're actually conservative Christians. So you'll have to forgive me when I don't put any stock in that 24% figure.

[Drooling Iguana]

So, Tith beat me to the stats thing, but i'll add this one:

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census0 ... splay=Page

Calgary and Edmonton are the 4th and 6th most ethnically diverse cities in Canada, after Toronto, Vancouver, Abbotsford (this one is arguable). Ottawa is included twice for some reason.

Three times. Once for the part on the Ontario side of the border, once for the entire Ottawa-Gatineau region and once (on the second page) for the part on the Quebec side.