[Leonardo Fibonacci] So when do they get a clue?

[Isolder74]

1) A stupid idea based on a stupid interpretation of a stupid episode of TNG that completely disregards CoE.

2) An idea that only works if either the moon Praxis was farther away from Qo'noS than the Excelsior, or else violates the inverse square law. And the former is obviously non-canon (thank you Hav.).

Actually the location of Praxis is canon as it was mentioned in a TNG episode. As was pointed out by Havok my fine feather friend. The shards of Praxis are mentioned above the Klingon homeworld.

[Isolder74]

ghetto edit: If the subspace shock wave is growing in intensity the farther it gets from Praxis the Federation should have been swept with a massive extinction level event and the only thing even a worry was the state of and the evacuation and repair of one planet, Qo'noS.

So the movie itself shows that there is no way that the shock wave is stronger at Excelsior.

[Batman]

1) A stupid idea based on a stupid interpretation of a stupid episode of TNG that completely disregards CoE.
2) An idea that only works if either the moon Praxis was farther away from Qo'noS than the Excelsior, or else violates the inverse square law. And the former is obviously non-canon (thank you Hav.).

Actually the location of Praxis is canon as it was mentioned in a TNG episode. As was pointed out by Havok my fine feather friend. The shards of Praxis are mentioned above the Klingon homeworld.

That rather was his point. NCC-2000 being closer to Qo'noS than Praxis is what he correctly calls non-canon.

[Batman]

ghetto edit: If the subspace shock wave is growing in intensity the farther it gets from Praxis the Federation should have been swept with a massive extinction level event and the only thing even a worry was the state of and the evacuation and repair of one planet, Qo'noS.
So the movie itself shows that there is no way that the shock wave is stronger at Excelsior.

We'll just ignore the little factoid that an event that can do such massive damage to a moon will somehow not do anything more to a planet sitting right next to it beyond messing up its atmosphere even WITHOUT ignoring the inverse square law.

[Isolder74]

That rather was his point. NCC-2000 being closer to Qo'noS than Praxis is what he correctly calls non-canon.

Actually Bats, I was trying to help confirm his information.

i also wanted to help show that the Shock Wave growing is strength doesn't make much sense considering what we see on screen. Khitomer where the talks took place, which looks just fine, I believe is near the Romulan/Klingon/Federation Boarder. As such it seems to have run out of juice before reaching there.

[Wyrm]

Okay, I'm going to summarize my points to Ninja Turtle, so he can address them:

• Just because both the subspace shockwave in ST6 and the soliton wave in New Ground are both subspace phenomena does not mean that they share all of their behaviors. If they did, they would not be distinct phenomena. Why does the increase in intensity of the soliton wave in New Ground with distance imply the increase in intensity of the shockwave in ST6?
• The visible, relevant part of the soliton wave (the "business end," if you will) visibly increased in intensity and described to increase intensity, enough to pose a danger to the target planet. Why assume that all of the energy of the wave is accounted for by that visible part, and as such, the extra energy was either created ex nihilo or from subspace (operationally the same thing)?
• If the energy came ex nihilo then there is no reason to suppose that the energy, speed, and extent of the soliton wave cannot increase without limit. This creates a problem which can be summerized as the Olbers' paradox meets the Fermi paradox with a Big Splat. We know that the universe is infinite in extent, which together with quantum mechanics implies that there are an infinite number of aliens along any particular line of sight that have fired off such a wave in your direction. The growth of the number of such waves is stochastically linear, whereas the energy of such waves is exponential, so it is almost sure that at any point in the universe, along any direction, there is a wave that is at the right combination of distance and energy such that it is now hitting you. Hence, the universe is awash in universe-busting solition waves.
• Ninja Turtle assumes that the above scenario cannot happen because space is so large the wave will simply disappear into emptiness. However, that only applies under specific mathematical conditions which he has failed to demonstrate, relying only on his gut.
• Lacking such ways out, Ninja Turtle has to explain how a phenomenon whose intensity increases with distance can ever fade out, else the universe is destroyed from careless alien life. At least the inverse square law comes from the fact that any region on a sphere increases in area by the square of the radius of that sphere, while the energy distributed across that region remains constant. Even a two-dimensional spreading wave (which neither the shockwave or the soliton wave are) decreases in intensity in inverse proportion to the radius of the circle that defines it. He has not come up with any theory regarding this. Contrary to his assertions, he has not done this. Two dimensionality, even if it applied to either case, still implies dissipation with distance.
• Ninja Turtle has to produce evidence for any of the above and in sufficient quality to overwhelm Mike Wong's much more simple theory, that ST ships are... well... just that fucking fragile.

Dispite your whining, Ninja Turtle, you have not any of these points to my satisfaction.

[Batman]

That rather was his point. NCC-2000 being closer to Qo'noS than Praxis is what he correctly calls non-canon.

Actually Bats, I was trying to help confirm his information.

I obviously understood you mis then. My bad :)

i also wanted to help show that the Shock Wave growing is strength doesn't make much sense considering what we see on screen. Khitomer where the talks took place, which looks just fine, I believe is near the Romulan/Klingon/Federation Boarder. As such it seems to have run out of juice before reaching there.

Technically, that need not be true. The TUC shockwave, just as the soliton wave, appeared to be a mostly PLANAR effect (for whatever reason), so it MIGHT have passed by Khitomer. Doesn't change the fact that it didn't do bupkis to NCC-2000 (except shattering a coffee cup) when it SHOULD have vapourized the ship (or worse) in passing if we accept the completely idiotic (and completely unsupported) 'gains energy the farther it travels' theory.

[Havok]

That rather was his point. NCC-2000 being closer to Qo'noS than Praxis is what he correctly calls non-canon.

Actually Bats, I was trying to help confirm his information.

I obviously understood you mis then. My bad :)

Are you guys talking about me or Ninja Turtle? I am confused. :(

[Isolder74]

ninja turtle? I'm confused....

[Wyrm]

ninja turtle? I'm confused....

That's what I dubbed our little friend, after the adolescent mutated shinobi testudine. Check my posts. His username is an insult to the actual Leonardo Fibonacci.

[Isolder74]

oh, ok 1,1,2,3,5,8,13.....Oh I hated that week of Calculus.

[Isolder74]

Actually Bats, I was trying to help confirm his information.

I obviously understood you mis then. My bad :)

Are you guys talking about me or Ninja Turtle? I am confused. :(

i guess I am confirming that Praxis orbits Qo'noS and there is no way the ship is closer to the explosion then the planet is.

[Lord Revan]

hmm btw a thought, but if (as Leo's pet theory suggests) subspace phanomena are self-fueling (in fact more then 100% efficient) why aren't AQ power using those as power sources for their ships since it would be literally free energy.

these predictions based on applying your theory are a pain eh Leo, seeing as they run that inconvinient thing called Logic.

[Leonardo Fibonacci]

Concerning the location of Praxis:

• Havo refering to memory-alpha that refers to the movie "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" and the TNG episode "Sins of the Father" claims that Praxis is a moon either around Qo'noS or at least a moon in the same star system.
  
  Fact is that in the whole script of the TNG episode "Sins of the Father" Praxis or a moon is not mentioned at all and as far as I can remember it was also not mentioned in the aired episode.
  
  Fact is that the movie "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" does not say that Praxis is a moon either around Qo'noS or at least a moon in the same star system.
  
  If you are another opinion you should prove it by showing where exactly it was said that Praxis is a moon either around Qo'noS or at least a moon in the same star system.

Concerning Wyrm's summarized points:

• It's interesting how many questions you are asking were already answered. If you are not satisfied with my answer it would be reasonable to say what exactly does not satisfy you or where it does not answer your question or results in a new question. But no, you are simply asking the same question again as if the answer would be different if you don't say, what you don't like in my answer..
  

  Just because both the subspace shockwave in ST6 and the soliton wave in New Ground are both subspace phenomena does not mean that they share all of their behaviors. If they did, they would not be distinct phenomena. Why does the increase in intensity of the soliton wave in New Ground with distance imply the increase in intensity of the shockwave in ST6?

  • That was already answered:

    I have never claimed that both are identical. But both are able to travel faster than light. And in Star Trek that's only possible via subspace. And that could mean that both waves are affected by the same subspace phenomenon.
    
    For example it does not matter if I throw a stick or a board into a river: Both will be affected by the current. The one maybe more than the other. And the one will maybe swim longer than the other before it is goes down. (That's not an example to nitpick. It's only to illustrate that different things can be affected by the same phenomenon. I don't want to say with that example that subspace is like a river. But if a wave gains energy from it, it could be irrelevant what kind of wave it is. And the wave could maybe entirely vanish into subspace sooner or later thus explaining why not other damages were reported.)

    I'm saying that I apply our physical laws up to the point where it is not possible any more. Then I have to choose if I believe that what happens is magic or if I have to assume that there are other other physical laws in Star Trek (another universe). I prefer to choose the later. I'm satisfied to know that only because I'm not able to explain something does not mean that it is not explainable. For example, I don't really understand the fictional subspace physic. But that does not mean that I have to assume that there are no (fictional) physical laws that are describing the working of subspace. I may not know them (and that bad authors are constantly making up new ones does not makes it easier). But sometimes you see some subspace phenomena and if you assume that the phenomena are liable to certain (unknown) laws you can conclude that in a similar situation the same phenomena happens. (If not you have to assume that the situation was not similar enough whereas the known circumstances may not be deciding but some unknown or not reported circumstances.)
    
    That's all I'm doing. I'm only saying that it is possible that the same phenomenon that has resulted in the soliton wave gaining energy from subspace could have resulted in the subspace shock wave gaining energy from subspace.
    
    And that's only one possible explanation. There were several other reasonable explanations provided.

    If you have observed that at one occasion a wave without its own warp drive can reach faster than light speeds, what should be impossible according to modern understanding of physic, and the wave is gaining energy from subspace, it is not implausible that this is a subspace related phenomenon (a phenomenon that is not explainable with our physical laws) and would also happen to each or most other waves that are travelling with faster than light speeds (unless there is no transient power imbalance or similar circumstances).
    
    To come back to my already provided example: Regardless what you are throwing in a river it will be affected by the current. The one more than the other and the one will swim longer than the other before it goes down. But the fact remains that each is affected and that you don't need to test it before you know that something you have never thrown in before will also be affected.

  For the record: I'm not saying that it has to be that way. All I'm saying that it is possible that the same phenomenon that has resulted in the soliton wave gaining energy from subspace could have resulted in the subspace shock wave gaining energy from subspace. I see no reason why it would be impossible or unlikely.
  

  The visible, relevant part of the soliton wave (the "business end," if you will) visibly increased in intensity and described to increase intensity, enough to pose a danger to the target planet. Why assume that all of the energy of the wave is accounted for by that visible part, and as such, the extra energy was either created ex nihilo or from subspace (operationally the same thing)?

  1. Because it was not reported that the wave has itself concentrated but that it has gained energy.
  2. Your are again assuming that the wave was far bigger than the visible part although that was also already addressed:

     That's not supported by the episode.
     It was planned to use soliton waves as a possible transportation method in the future. Imagine millions of planets using continuously soliton waves to send ships between them and each time such wave would only be partly dissipated at its center.

     Why assume that there is an invisible part of the wave that would have to be enormous to hold enough energy that it would be not enough to interfere with warp drives while outstretched but enough to increase the energy in the centre several time whiles contracted?
     
     Furthermore at the time the wave was stopped it was expected that if the wave would not be stopped it would further gain energy and accelerate. That would mean - according to your theory - that the invisible part was still not totally assimilated by the centre of the wave. That would mean that the wave was still enormous big and most of its energy in the invisible part of the wave. How could the torpedo explosions which have only covered the length of the visible part of the wave have dissipated the invisible part of the wave? You theory would results in two new soliton waves.

  If the energy came ex nihilo then there is no reason to suppose that the energy, speed, and extent of the soliton wave cannot increase without limit. This creates a problem which can be summerized as the Olbers' paradox meets the Fermi paradox with a Big Splat. We know that the universe is infinite in extent, which together with quantum mechanics implies that there are an infinite number of aliens along any particular line of sight that have fired off such a wave in your direction. The growth of the number of such waves is stochastically linear, whereas the energy of such waves is exponential, so it is almost sure that at any point in the universe, along any direction, there is a wave that is at the right combination of distance and energy such that it is now hitting you. Hence, the universe is awash in universe-busting solition waves.

  The universe may be infinite. But the energy and matter created is not. The number of galaxies is finite and with that the number of possible civilisations. Furthermore also the area of space in which those galaxies can be is also very limited. And thus the fact remains that if you would have a two dimensional wave it is extremely unlikely that it would hit anything at all because - as was already said - space is big and habitable planets (or moons) are few and far between. Furthermore - as was said also already several times - if such a wave would continuously accelerate it would reach velocities that are to high to still interact with matter in real space.
  

  Leonardo Fibonacci assumes that the above scenario cannot happen because space is so large the wave will simply disappear into emptiness. However, that only applies under specific mathematical conditions which he has failed to demonstrate, relying only on his gut.

  You assume that there is an infinite number of aliens in that universe. That is wrong. My assumption is correct.
  

  Lacking such ways out, Leonardo Fibonacci has to explain how a phenomenon whose intensity increases with distance can ever fade out, else the universe is destroyed from careless alien life. At least the inverse square law comes from the fact that any region on a sphere increases in area by the square of the radius of that sphere, while the energy distributed across that region remains constant. Even a two-dimensional spreading wave (which neither the shockwave or the soliton wave are) decreases in intensity in inverse proportion to the radius of the circle that defines it. He has not come up with any theory regarding this. Contrary to his assertions, he has not done this. Two dimensionality, even if it applied to either case, still implies dissipation with distance.

  1. I was already shown that you assumption that there is an infinite number of alien civilisations is wrong.
  2. I have already provided two explanations how such a wave could vanish from real space. If it would continuously accelerate it would reach velocities where it can't interact with anything in real space any more. Or such a wave could enter subspace. The first explanation is mandatory. The second explanation is only a possible explanation that can't be proven or disapproved because there is in our modern understanding of physic no subspace.
  3. And if a wave would gain energy from subspace - as is the premise in that argument - the gained energy could compensate the loss of intensity of energy that would come with expanding. After all an expanded wave would also have a bigger contact to subspace and thus would gain even more energy.

  Leonardo Fibonacci has to produce evidence for any of the above and in sufficient quality to overwhelm Mike Wong's much more simple theory, that ST ships are... well... just that fucking fragile.

  Mike Wong's theory may be much more simple - even if he refers to magic - but that does not mean that it is the only reasonable explanation. "Only reasonable" does not mean "most sensible". All I have to do it provide other reasonable explanations to show that his claim that his explanation is the only reasonable explanation is wrong. I have not to provide more sensible explanations and I have not to disprove Wong's theory.
  Furthermore a possible or reasonable explanation has not to be proved as true. Because if it would have been proven as true it wouldn't be a possible explanation any more but the one and only truth. And if the truth is known and provable each other explanation is not possible any more.
  Can you prove that Wong's theory is the one and only thruth?
  

  Dispite your whining, Ninja Turtle, you have not any of these points to my satisfaction.

  The question would be if it is possible to satisfy you at all? If you ignore what was already said, it seems that you are not open minded enough to accept another explanation as possible at all.
  And please show me where I have whined?

Concerning Lord Revan's question:

• well we know that certain starfleet technologies affect subspace (warpdrive for example) so it's not unreasonble to assume that those technologies might in turn be affected by subspace.

  I agree with that.
  

  now be honest and say which one seems more reasonable a "self-fueling" reaction (based on a interreption of A SINGLE EPISODE! (that has other possible explanations as people have pointed out to you)) and violates both the conservation of energy and inverse square law or that federation ships are affected by subspace due their reliance on subspace based technology.

  1. It's not relevant what is more reasonable. Darth Wong claims that his explanation is the only reasonable explanation. All I have to do is to show that there are other explanation that my be less reasonable but still reasonable.
  2. Because the phenomenon that has let the soliton wave gain energy from subspace was only shown one single time does not mean that we can ignore it. If it's a naturally occurring phenomenon it will happen in similar situations again. That this phenomenon does violates physical laws is to be accepted due to the suspension of disbelieve formula.

  since you seem ignorant conservation of energy states that no energy can be created or destroyed and inverse square law states that intensity of an explotion is portional to to the inverse square of the origin point (aka "ground zero") (inverse square means 1/d^2 where d=distance).
  
  lesson ends here now be smart.

  You too have as it seems not read that thread if you think that I do not know the law of conservation of energy or the the inverse square law. If the assumption is that the same phenomenon that has happened to the soliton wave has also happened to the subspace shock wave and as you self have just noticed this phenomenon violates both the conservation of energy and inverse square law you have to expect that these laws are not only violated with the soliton wave but also with the subspace shock wave.
  

  hmm btw a thought, but if (as Leo's pet theory suggests) subspace phanomena are self-fueling (in fact more then 100% efficient) why aren't AQ power using those as power sources for their ships since it would be literally free energy.
  
  these predictions based on applying your theory are a pain eh Leo, seeing as they run that inconvinient thing called Logic.

  That question proves that you have not read that thread. It was already asked and answered:

  • Besides, there are other consequences to assuming that subspace is some kind of perpetual motion machine. For example, why hasn't anyone exploited it yet? Why does everyone still rely on antimatter when they could gather infinite energy from subspace?

    Maybe because it is difficult to control.

  To elaborate that answer I would like to refer to the dangers of the omega particle.
  You may not like my answer. If that's the case you could say that. But to ask the same question shows only that you have not read the thread and that you are not really ready to accept anything I have said or will say. The consequence of that is that I will not answer you again in that thread. I'll simply ignore you - irrelevant if you have a point or not.

[Isolder74]

Wyrm wrote:
Leonardo Fibonacci assumes that the above scenario cannot happen because space is so large the wave will simply disappear into emptiness. However, that only applies under specific mathematical conditions which he has failed to demonstrate, relying only on his gut.

You assume that there is an infinite number of aliens in that universe. That is wrong. My assumption is correct.

By the very nature of the concept of infinity there can be nothing LESS then an infinite number of 'aliens' in the universe. If the universe is infinite than that makes the number of habitual worlds infinite, no matter how many you count there will always be one more, which makes the number of worlds with life infinite and that makes the number of intelligent life infinite and so on.

You do not seem to grasp the concept. If the Praxis wave is getting more energy it will always get more enegry and hence will by infinite distance become infinitely huge. As it grows it will eventual;y reach the point where it will eventually become automatally destructive to anything it passes.

Hence the reason the law of thermodynamics exist.

[Wyrm]

Just because both the subspace shockwave in ST6 and the soliton wave in New Ground are both subspace phenomena does not mean that they share all of their behaviors. If they did, they would not be distinct phenomena. Why does the increase in intensity of the soliton wave in New Ground with distance imply the increase in intensity of the shockwave in ST6?

That was already answered:

I have never claimed that both are identical. But both are able to travel faster than light. And in Star Trek that's only possible via subspace. And that could mean that both waves are affected by the same subspace phenomenon.

For example it does not matter if I throw a stick or a board into a river: Both will be affected by the current. The one maybe more than the other. And the one will maybe swim longer than the other before it is goes down. (That's not an example to nitpick. It's only to illustrate that different things can be affected by the same phenomenon. I don't want to say with that example that subspace is like a river. But if a wave gains energy from it, it could be irrelevant what kind of wave it is. And the wave could maybe entirely vanish into subspace sooner or later thus explaining why not other damages were reported.)

This is not an answer to my question, no matter what you seem to think. An ordinary shockwave and a soliton are both consequences of wave mechanics, yet they display quite different behaviors. A shockwave, for instance, dissipates over time and distance (rather quickly, too), while a soliton does not. Indeed, the fact that the soliton does not dissipate with distance is one of its definining characteristics. That they are both waves in the same medium is not sufficient to establish that they share any given characteristic.

So, again, why do you think this strange amplification effect will apply to the shockwave in ST6 the same way it applied to the soliton?

That's all I'm doing. I'm only saying that it is possible that the same phenomenon that has resulted in the soliton wave gaining energy from subspace could have resulted in the subspace shock wave gaining energy from subspace.

And that's only one possible explanation. There were several other reasonable explanations provided.

This is not an explanation at all, as you have failed to provide any sort of mechanism that the soliton wave gains energy. You just say, by complete fiat, "It's the same mechanism," without any sort of explanation or argument whatsoever.

For the record: I'm not saying that it has to be that way. All I'm saying that it is possible that the same phenomenon that has resulted in the soliton wave gaining energy from subspace could have resulted in the subspace shock wave gaining energy from subspace. I see no reason why it would be impossible or unlikely.

"Or unlikely"? What gives you any leave to say that? You don't know anything about physics or wave mechanics, or you wouldn't have claimed any of the things you have claimed before! You are claiming that, since both are subspace phenomena, that they share this particular characteristic. This is not a valid assumption, since they are different phenomena and obviously already differ in some of them.

The very fact that most structures in the universe dissipate over time gives us an a priori assumption that any new phenomenon we encounter will also be dissipative, unless given very conclusive proof otherwise. To claim that the subspace shockwave gained energy by the same mechanism as the solition is "not unlikely" is to claim you do know something about subspace physics.

Because it was not reported that the wave has itself concentrated but that it has gained energy.

Why do you assume that they were talking about the wave as a whole instead of just the relevant part... you know, the part of the soliton that was gaining enough energy to ruin the target planet? Is it because they didn't explicitly say that they were only talking about part of it? What bullshit! Specifying such would only add clutter to the dialogue. Only trektards like you need everything spelled out to you in such mind-numbing detail.

Your are again assuming that the wave was far bigger than the visible part although that was also already addressed:

That's not supported by the episode.
It was planned to use soliton waves as a possible transportation method in the future. Imagine millions of planets using continuously soliton waves to send ships between them and each time such wave would only be partly dissipated at its center.

Red herring. The parts of the soliton that were too weak to even interfere with warp drive would be at this point considered irrelevant.

Why assume that there is an invisible part of the wave that would have to be enormous to hold enough energy that it would be not enough to interfere with warp drives while outstretched but enough to increase the energy in the centre several time whiles contracted?

They had the Enterprise follow behind at a fair distance, on the order of ten kilometers, when the original wave was barely the length of the Enterprise, and when it became unstable, the Enterprise had to stop chasing it due to the interference. When they entered the wave to get ahead of it, the buffeting effects were confined to when they were visually in the wave. You'd think that a wave uniformly increasing in strength would slowly increase the buffetting as they approach, the same way the soliton interefered with the Enterprise's warp engines earlier. That's clearly a wave effect becoming more concentrated.

I'll return to the rest of these points when I have more time.

[Isolder74]

Concerning the location of Praxis:
Havo refering to memory-alpha that refers to the movie "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" and the TNG episode "Sins of the Father" claims that Praxis is a moon either around Qo'noS or at least a moon in the same star system.

Fact is that in the whole script of the TNG episode "Sins of the Father" Praxis or a moon is not mentioned at all and as far as I can remember it was also not mentioned in the aired episode.

Fact is that the movie "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" does not say that Praxis is a moon either around Qo'noS or at least a moon in the same star system.

If you are another opinion you should prove it by showing where exactly it was said that Praxis is a moon either around Qo'noS or at least a moon in the same star system.

The fact that only Qo'noS appears to have been affected by the shock wave pretty makes it clear that Praxis was very close to the planet. Being a Klingon moon doesn't let you place it where ever you want when the implication of the movie is that the only planet affected by the shock wave was the Klingon Home World. If Praxis isn't close to the planet that really doesn't make much sense.

[Wyrm]

Continuing...

Furthermore at the time the wave was stopped it was expected that if the wave would not be stopped it would further gain energy and accelerate. That would mean - according to your theory - that the invisible part was still not totally assimilated by the centre of the wave. That would mean that the wave was still enormous big and most of its energy in the invisible part of the wave. How could the torpedo explosions which have only covered the length of the visible part of the wave have dissipated the invisible part of the wave? You theory would results in two new soliton waves.

Why? Do you have some unique insight into the nature of soliton waves in subspace, using your knowledge of subspace wave mechanics? Because in normal wave mechanics, solitons are actually quite fragile, occurring only under very specific conditions. Once the soliton is disrupted, its component waves will become dissipative again.

The universe may be infinite.

It is. The expansion of the universe is accelerating, which means it's open and therefore infinite in extent.

But the energy and matter created is not. The number of galaxies is finite and with that the number of possible civilisations. Furthermore also the area of space in which those galaxies can be is also very limited.

The amount of matter in the observable universe is finite. This is quite a different statement from saying that the universe as a whole contains a finite amount of matter. Indeed, if it has uniform, non-zero density on the large scale (and as far as we can see, it does) then it will have an infinite matter and energy content.

And thus the fact remains that if you would have a two dimensional wave it is extremely unlikely that it would hit anything at all because - as was already said - space is big and habitable planets (or moons) are few and far between.

But not asymptotically thin, which is required for you to escape the Soliton paradox. Sooner or later, something is going to be in the way.

Furthermore - as was said also already several times - if such a wave would continuously accelerate it would reach velocities that are to high to still interact with matter in real space.

Why? Because you say so with your superior knowledge of subspace physics? Sorry, but not only the acceleration of the wave grows without limit, but also its extent. A longer extent lengthens the time in which something will happen. A higher energy also increases the chance that something will happen. Furthermore, as Formless points out, we still see the damn thing even when it's accelerated; in absolute terms, its power output in the visible spectrum increases with the intensity of the wave. It's radiating light, fucktard! That light will interact with things!

You assume that there is an infinite number of aliens in that universe. That is wrong. My assumption is correct.

That statement only applies for the observable universe, which is finite in extent and content. What I'm talking about is in the entire universe along a line of sight. Beyond this observable universe, there's another observable universe, and another observable universe beyond that, and so on. Each universe has a non-zero probability of containing an alien that is firing a soliton wave directly at you, owing to the fact that any finite space (which the observable universe is one) has a finite number of physical configurations it may be in. But we may also find the probability of this occurrence by observing the frequency of such universes along a line of such universes, defined by limN→∞ n/N = probability. In order for n/N to converge to any number but zero as N increases without bound, then n also has to increase without bound. Therefore, the number of such soliton waves along an infinite line is infinite. QED.

You besmirch the name 'Leonardo Fibonacci,' which is why I call you 'Ninja Turtle.'

I was already shown that you assumption that there is an infinite number of alien civilisations is wrong.

I've already demolished this rebuttal.

I have already provided two explanations how such a wave could vanish from real space. If it would continuously accelerate it would reach velocities where it can't interact with anything in real space any more.

Which requires that you know (a) that such infinite acceleration is possible (unproven) and (b) that subspace physics is arranged in such a way to let this outcome be possible or probable (also unproven). You specifically deny knowledge of subspace physics, so this assertion is one made without any justification whatsoever. At least we understand how dissipative phenomena work.

Or such a wave could enter subspace.

It's already a subspace phenomenon, moron.

The first explanation is mandatory.

No, it is not. It assumes that infinite speedup will automatically cause the probability of interaction with normal matter to vanish, without taking into account how the increasing extent of the wave and the increasing energy of the wave affect the probability of interaction with normal matter.

The second explanation is only a possible explanation that can't be proven or disapproved because there is in our modern understanding of physic no subspace.

No, you're just an idiot.

And if a wave would gain energy from subspace - as is the premise in that argument - the gained energy could compensate the loss of intensity of energy that would come with expanding. After all an expanded wave would also have a bigger contact to subspace and thus would gain even more energy.

Except this "increasing energy without bound" nonsense does not help your argument, as you ignore the effects of both greater extent of the wave and the increased energy of the wave have on the probability of the wave affecting something it rolls over. Remember, the soliton in New Ground went from a manageable risk to a fucking hazard for a planet over the course of the episode. It contradicts your assertion that the increasing energy of the wave makes it less likely to cause damage.

Mike Wong's theory may be much more simple - even if he refers to magic - but that does not mean that it is the only reasonable explanation. "Only reasonable" does not mean "most sensible". All I have to do it provide other reasonable explanations to show that his claim that his explanation is the only reasonable explanation is wrong.

Which you fail to provide. Your theory still does not account for the absence of a soliton catastrophe, a glaring hole in it. Your theory doesn't explain why soliton waves and subspace shockwaves should share this particular property, another glaring hole. Unlimited growth goes against everything we know about physics, and your objections aside, any useful theory of subspace will have CoE. After all, you want subspace tech to be as useful today as it was yesterday, and you can't have that without CoE.

Can you prove that Wong's theory is the one and only thruth?

Ain't my job, Ninja Turtle. You first have to show that your theory is even in the running. You have not.

The question would be if it is possible to satisfy you at all?

Oh yes. You just have to produce evidence and a clean, logical, and compelling argument. You have done neither, just spouted mealy-mouthed 'reasonable explanations' as if you knew what the fuck you're talking about when it's clear you do not —to anyone with any real education, they're stupidity and nonsense. I suspect producing the relevant evidence and arguments is beyond your abilities, to tell the truth.

If you ignore what was already said, it seems that you are not open minded enough to accept another explanation as possible at all.

I'm a busy man. I'm not searching through your long-ass drivel in vain hope that you have addressed any of my arguments in replies to other posters.

And please show me where I have whined?

By claiming to have addressed my points previously when you have not.

(Corrected for spelling)

[Formless]

That question proves that you have not read that thread. It was already asked and answered:

<snip>

To elaborate that answer I would like to refer to the dangers of the omega particle.
You may not like my answer. If that's the case you could say that. But to ask the same question shows only that you have not read the thread and that you are not really ready to accept anything I have said or will say. The consequence of that is that I will not answer you again in that thread. I'll simply ignore you - irrelevant if you have a point or not.

Reading through this thread is like having an aneurysm, only it is self inflicted. You really like to drag that attack out on everyone who walks into this thread, don't you? You are a dishonest fucking shitbrick. You omitted something very important from that quote. MY RESPONSE:

Besides, there are other consequences to assuming that subspace is some kind of perpetual motion machine. For example, why hasn't anyone exploited it yet? Why does everyone still rely on antimatter when they could gather infinite energy from subspace?

Maybe because it is difficult to control.

Possibly, but you would think we would have heard of someone trying it and failing.

Emphasized so you have no excuse not to read it yourself.

Tell me, for the audience, how do we know that the Omega particle is unstable? BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD ABOUT IT, SHITBRICK. That means that (1) someone actually tried to use it to create energy, and (2) failed spectacularly. You on the other hand have not provided any evidence to prove the assertion that it is unstable enough to prevent it from being used as an energy source, and have not explained the lack of even failed attempts to use it. Oh, and even if it is unstable, that doesn't explain the lack of attempts to weaponize it. You know, just like we managed to weaponize fire, high explosives, fission and fusion reactions, etc.? Given the lack of attempts to use it as an energy source/weapon combined with the lack of rouge soliton waves wiping out the known universe set off by careless civilizations * , we have every reason to believe your proposal is bunk.

But hey, I give you too much credit. Clearly you haven't been following your own advice, because it seems the entirety of my last post just sailed over your head. Asshole.

* If you don't understand why this one is such an issue, you obviously haven't seen The Doomsday Machine where this very thing happened, but with a different rouge weapon of astronomical destruction. So we have a precedent for this kind of thing happening, but rouge soliton waves perpetual motion machines haven't blown the fuck out of the universe yet.

Why? Because you say so with your superior knowledge of subspace physics? Sorry, but not only the acceleration of the wave grows without limit, but also its extent. A longer extent lengthens the time in which something will happen. A higher energy also increases the chance that something will happen. Furthermore, as Formless points out, we still see the damn thing even when it's accelerated; in absolute terms, its power output in the visible spectrum increases with the intensity of the wave. It's radiating light, fucktard! That light will interact with things!

Considering the ignorance and pathetic logic our mutated reptilian friend has displayed already, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he doesn't even realize that light interacts with matter. Couldn't be any less stupid than carelessly throwing Conservation of Energy out the window, making false statements about the distance between Qo'nos and Praxis to avoid the problem of the inverse square law, dodging the point about the Fermi paradox, completely misunderstanding what a soliton is, making a leap in logic that all waves are the same no matter their composition or type, and (my favorite) stating that these waves are made of the very medium they move through. But hey, what's one more intellectual atrocity going to hurt when you have all that in your resume?

[Terralthra]

Formless, I realize this is nitpicking, but "rouge" is the French word for "red." You mean "rogue."

[Formless]

Ack! You're right. Its too late to edit it, but thanks. I knew that too, but spellchecker doesn't catch words that are just misused.

[Lord Revan]

what bothers me most even beond the rape of known laws of physics is that the characteristics of the phanomena seem to change according to "what's needed for my argument" (Leo's "argument" that is not mine) so it's impossible to independently comfirm his theory since it keeps changing every moment (only common thread I seem to find is "Mike Wong must be wrong, because he must".

then there's ofc the thing Leo thinks he wins wins by default and doesn't need to comfirm his "theory" but rather we must uncomfirm it (a sad case of putting the burden of proof on the wrong person(s) (aka us)).

now Leo I'm nothing if not patient, so I'm gonna give you 1 more chance before I join the rest in calling you a total waste of genetic material, condense you theory into the least amount of text possible, so that we can a)make consistent predictions on it's behavior b)clearly and consistently define it's characteristics c) it's deviates as little as possible as from enstablished theories and when it does you have a good explanation why it does so (and "it's subspace physics" isn't a good explanation).

I'm no mod or admin, but be warned my patience is wearing thin and I'm not a nice person when I'm pissed of (to quote the Hulk "you wouldn't like me if I was angry")

[Isolder74]

It's been almost 48 hours since his last post. Shall we close the thread and call it over?

[Lord Revan]

It's been almost 48 hours since his last post. Shall we close the thread and call it over?

yeah I think he ran away, when we didn't go lockstep behind his claims, though there's a holiday here at least (1st of may is a national holiday and then there's ofc the weekend), so I might be inclinied to allow him a few more days, but then it's not up to me to deside.

also I really want to see if he tries to respond to my post or not

[Darth Wong]

These twats are exactly like religious people: they think that "theory" means "any words I can vomit out of my mouth", and that the only threshold for a viable theory is that it cannot be absolutely disproven, even if it's so vague that it has no mechanism (notice how they make no attempt whatsoever to explain what makes the soliton wave grow in energy over time, other than to mumble that it's subspace and therefore magic, whereas a conventional explanation of a soliton wave explains why it behaves the way it does, ie- it has a mechanism).

The sad thing is that you can tell they think they're covering their own immaturity and ignorance quite well. They have no idea how painfully obvious it is that they are totally uneducated. That kind of precociousness is adorable in small children, but it's really quite disgusting in teenagers and adults.