What if a Star Forge was found in the OT/PT?(KOTOR spoilers)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have never thought about it before, but for the Star Forge to draw that much gases from the surface of a Star would suggest major power consumption to draw the gases or gravimetric mass. I mean, aside from the Centerpoint Station, which could well be built by the Rakatans, or a race before them.

[TC Pilot]

Whoops, thought I already responded.

Money is also a measure of resources- unless you are assuming the Rakatan were pure communists.

This is getting ridiculous. Are you seriously trying to argue that it's impossible for the Rakatan to build the Star Forge, because it's expensive?

That was the Empire's policy, not the Republics.

I didn't say anything about government policy.

And this is entirely ignoring your rather naive view about the supposed virtue of the Republic when it comes to slavery. Suffice to say, simply because Czerka was enslaving intelligent beings does not in and of itself mean they went rogue and broke with the Republic.

How is this related at all to what I said?

You said "at the start." I'm pointing out that Revan never had more than 1/3 of the Republic fleet.

*snip link

Considering he says "after each conquest," it's fairly clear he's talking about civilians joining the Sith cause.

Thats only 5 times as long as Revan had. You want to calculate that the Forge was 80% of their productive capacity?

I may as well point out that there will clearly be a difference between the military output of an economy just coming off a major war and having lost a third of its fleet to defection, and the same economy that hasn't fought a war in over four decades.

[Darth Paxis]

Again, so what? Only a tiny fraction of the "Sith" are actual Force users. You're going to need to offer something more than a title to justify your claim.

Revan's Empire was in the era where the Sith were numerous, so wouldn't it make sense for there to be a lot of Sith and Dark Jedi running the Sith Empire. It's also made clear that there is a line of succession so that a Sith ends up in charge (Bandon, Dark Bastilla)

I have never thought about it before, but for the Star Forge to draw that much gases from the surface of a Star would suggest major power consumption to draw the gases or gravimetric mass. I mean, aside from the Centerpoint Station, which could well be built by the Rakatans, or a race before them.

I thought the Architects built Centerpoint. Altough it's possible that the Rakata are the Architechs, I don't think that they have the ability to contruct a solar system.

[Samuel]

This is getting ridiculous. Are you seriously trying to argue that it's impossible for the Rakatan to build the Star Forge, because it's expensive?

I'm arguing its impossible for them to have built something on the order of Death Star size. They were a slave based economy that was choatic stupid- they did not have the manpower to build something of the size you keep insisting on.

And this is entirely ignoring your rather naive view about the supposed virtue of the Republic when it comes to slavery. Suffice to say, simply because Czerka was enslaving intelligent beings does not in and of itself mean they went rogue and broke with the Republic.

It does mean that they commit operations completely on their own authority as given in the loading screens. Guess what that means for their sales? They will supply things to who they think is the winning side.

You said "at the start." I'm pointing out that Revan never had more than 1/3 of the Republic fleet.

Are you going to give the exact quote?

Considering he says "after each conquest," it's fairly clear he's talking about civilians joining the Sith cause.

Like Saul? What makes you think that large portions of the military didn't just switch sides? They have a leader who lead the Republic to victory in a previous war- what makes you think that defections wouldn't be common? There is a slight plot hole here though- see if you can find it.

I may as well point out that there will clearly be a difference between the military output of an economy just coming off a major war and having lost a third of its fleet to defection, and the same economy that hasn't fought a war in over four decades.

The Star Wars galaxy is notorious under-militarized. Even with only several tens of thousands of worlds they should have been able to smash the Mandalorians like paste.

Revan's Empire was in the era where the Sith were numerous, so wouldn't it make sense for there to be a lot of Sith and Dark Jedi running the Sith Empire. It's also made clear that there is a line of succession so that a Sith ends up in charge (Bandon, Dark Bastilla)

I'm pretty sure you gut Bandon- you kill Malak's second for certain, along with all the Sith on the Star Forge.

I have never thought about it before, but for the Star Forge to draw that much gases from the surface of a Star would suggest major power consumption to draw the gases or gravimetric mass. I mean, aside from the Centerpoint Station, which could well be built by the Rakatans, or a race before them.

I thought the Architects built Centerpoint. Altough it's possible that the Rakata are the Architechs, I don't think that they have the ability to contruct a solar system.

I'm pretty sure they are different groups. The Star Forge was described as their greatest achievement- moving planets is much more impressive.

[Darth Paxis]

I'm pretty sure you gut Bandon- you kill Malak's second for certain, along with all the Sith on the Star Forge.

Exactly. I'm agreeing with you. There was a plan for succession and Revan screwed it up, collapsing the Sith Empire.

I'm pretty sure they are different groups. The Star Forge was described as their greatest achievement- moving planets is much more impressive.

You're right. Wookieepedia says that they are seperate.

[TC Pilot]

I'm arguing its impossible for them to have built something on the order of Death Star size. They were a slave based economy that was choatic stupid- they did not have the manpower to build something of the size you keep insisting on.

And you have consistently failed to justify this claim.

It does mean that they commit operations completely on their own authority as given in the loading screens.

Why shouldn't they have? They were doing nothing illegal as far as the Republic was concerned.

Guess what that means for their sales? They will supply things to who they think is the winning side.

There's absolutely no justification for this ridiculous claim that Czerka broke with the Republic.

Are you going to give the exact quote?

No, I'm not. Play the game and talk to Dorak yourself.

Like Saul? What makes you think that large portions of the military didn't just switch sides?

Because it's a military.

They have a leader who lead the Republic to victory in a previous war- what makes you think that defections wouldn't be common?

Because it's a military.

There is a slight plot hole here though- see if you can find it.

Not really. Considering Saul is repeatedly seen throughout the KOTOR comics as serving with Jedi, and how the Exile was present at the Battle of Serreco, which Saul was the commander in, he's presumably attached to the 1/3 that came under Revan's authority.

Alright, just out of curiousity, why the fuck are you arguing at all, anyway? What is it about the Star Forge that motivates you to try coming up with every conceivable objection to deny it has any appreciable production capacity?

Revan's Empire was in the era where the Sith were numerous, so wouldn't it make sense for there to be a lot of Sith and Dark Jedi running the Sith Empire. It's also made clear that there is a line of succession so that a Sith ends up in charge (Bandon, Dark Bastilla)

Running the empire and filling every command position are two entirely different things. Samuel's tried arguing that, because all the Sith were fighting each other for power, they wouldn't be producing anything, as opposed to because the Star Forge is just gone.

[Samuel]

Because they would be blowing up each others facilities. The Sith seem to be about as subtle as Malak in general and I wouldn't put it past them to torch each others holding.

Of course, if this is GO-TO from the Dark Side Revan version than we can always subscribe to the "Revan sabotaged it" theory Yes, it is a stupid theory, but fits in with the version in KoTOR 2.

And you have consistently failed to justify this claim.

They had a manpower pool of 1 trillion slaves. The population of the Republics capital world could hold their entire civilization at least 2 times over. They used physical labor from slaves to build the temple on Dantoonie- and then executed the slaves when they were finished. Remember, this is a temple that holds a Star Map to show off their power so killing the workers to keep it a secret is beyond retarded.

There's absolutely no justification for this ridiculous claim that Czerka broke with the Republic.

Eh, you are right. I just hate explanations that assume that the Republic is entirely moronic.

No, I'm not. Play the game and talk to Dorak yourself.

I have the X-box version- it is about 10 hours in. I don't have a save file from that point. If you insist I'll put it on my to do list.

Because it's a military.

Your faith in the military's loyalty is nice, but misplaced. What you essentially have is a civil war. What generally happens is the military splits. All of the forces that went with Revan are loyal to him because he purged the individuals who weren't by sending them to die.

Not really. Considering Saul is repeatedly seen throughout the KOTOR comics as serving with Jedi, and how the Exile was present at the Battle of Serreco, which Saul was the commander in, he's presumably attached to the 1/3 that came under Revan's authority.

That is odd. You'd think Carth would notice his mentor coming back after 2 years of being dead as... odd. Actually, I was refering to the fact that less than a generation ago they also had a war involving the Sith, a charismatic Jedi turning, a Mandalorian invasion, said Sith taking over the Senate... really, you'd think they would be a little more careful in preventing that again.

Alright, just out of curiousity, why the fuck are you arguing at all, anyway? What is it about the Star Forge that motivates you to try coming up with every conceivable objection to deny it has any appreciable production capacity?

The larger its production, the larger the Republics and the smallers its percentage of the Sith Empire, the larger still. After a certain point though, problems crop up. If the Star Forge is so efficient instead of just being the toy of an evil empire trying to maximize control, why don't we see any other usage of it? They have an economy of quadrillions- why not use it to pop out toasters and profit from an unbreakable monopoly? The easiest explanation is that making its equivalent in conventional factories is cheaper... which is why having production past a certain point be a problem. Once it is better than normal factories, why doesn't anyone else ever build one?

The scenario that makes the most sense is that it was built to centralize ship production and take it out of the hands of slaves while at the same time standing as a symbol of raw power. Presumably it was overbuilt as s monument to their ego. Having it better than conventional factories runs into the problem of why no one else builds them.

[TC Pilot]

Because they would be blowing up each others facilities. The Sith seem to be about as subtle as Malak in general and I wouldn't put it past them to torch each others holding.

It's still silly to try claiming that such a vast percentage of the Sith's industrial capacity was wiped out so quickly.

Of course, if this is GO-TO from the Dark Side Revan version than we can always subscribe to the "Revan sabotaged it" theory Yes, it is a stupid theory, but fits in with the version in KoTOR 2.

The dialouge's the same irrespective of the ending the player chooses for KOTOR.

They had a manpower pool of 1 trillion slaves. The population of the Republics capital world could hold their entire civilization at least 2 times over. They used physical labor from slaves to build the temple on Dantoonie- and then executed the slaves when they were finished. Remember, this is a temple that holds a Star Map to show off their power so killing the workers to keep it a secret is beyond retarded.

And why is it you think this slave labor force (just like the one that built the Death Star) did so without the assistance of advanced industrial technology, droids, and the limitless resources of an entire galaxy?

Eh, you are right. I just hate explanations that assume that the Republic is entirely moronic.

Assuming Czerka sided with the Sith makes the Republic even more moronic, considering Czerka is alive, well, and working for the Republic in KOTOR2.

I have the X-box version- it is about 10 hours in. I don't have a save file from that point. If you insist I'll put it on my to do list.

Or you could just take my word for it. Neither of us wants to waste so much time just finding one damn piece of dialouge.

Your faith in the military's loyalty is nice, but misplaced. What you essentially have is a civil war. What generally happens is the military splits. All of the forces that went with Revan are loyal to him because he purged the individuals who weren't by sending them to die.

Right.

That is odd. You'd think Carth would notice his mentor coming back after 2 years of being dead as... odd.

Or maybe he was just left behind in order to facilitate the surprise first strike.

After a certain point though, problems crop up. If the Star Forge is so efficient instead of just being the toy of an evil empire trying to maximize control, why don't we see any other usage of it? They have an economy of quadrillions- why not use it to pop out toasters and profit from an unbreakable monopoly?

Why the hell would an empire in the middle of a war suddenly decide to convert a factory designed specially to produce war machines into a consumer goods factory?

Once it is better than normal factories, why doesn't anyone else ever build one?

Because no one knows how to? Because it's not as profitable? There are plenty of reasons why no one else would deign to construct a massive Dark Side-empowered battle station/factory the size of a planet.

[Samuel]

Finally found the quote

It is significant that after the defeat of Malak, the forces decreased considerably, and after Revan's departure from known space, production ceased completely. It is my prediction that whatever was producing such forces needed a strong, effective leader to insure its stability. Without Revan or Malak, there was no such figure left among the Sith.”

And why is it you think this slave labor force (just like the one that built the Death Star) did so without the assistance of advanced industrial technology, droids, and the limitless resources of an entire galaxy?

Because that was the way they built the temple- they had a overseer droid and slave laborers. They also did not have the resources of the entire galaxy- only 500 worlds.

Right.

In the Spanish Civil War the army split between the Loyalists and the Republicans. The Navy went almost entirely (around 95%) for the Republicans with the crew slaughtering their officers who supported the Loyalists.

Given that this isn't an ideological war, I doubt we'd have such a split by class, but we could still have similar problems.

Why the hell would an empire in the middle of a war suddenly decide to convert a factory designed specially to produce war machines into a consumer goods factory?

I'm refering to the 34000 years out of 35000 that the Republic is not involved in warfare. If it is such a superfactory, why wouldn't any company make one to run its opponents out of business? A Stellar Forge is the ultimate in economies of scale.

Because no one knows how to? Because it's not as profitable? There are plenty of reasons why no one else would deign to construct a massive Dark Side-empowered battle station/factory the size of a planet.

Infinite Empire
planets 500
population 1.01 trillion
age 10,000
Republic
planets billions
population in the quadrillions
age 25000

The idea that no one in the Republic ever thought of the idea is ludicrous. Remember, even though the Star Forge is a dark side empowered battlestation/factory, there is nothing it does that requires the force that can't be done with technology. Why didn't anyone ever make a stripped down version for consumer goods? Republic companies are big enough that it would be profitable.

[TC Pilot]

Because that was the way they built the temple- they had a overseer droid and slave laborers.

The temples are stone structures, the Star Forge is a giant space station. Its existence requires at least some degree of mechanization.

They also did not have the resources of the entire galaxy- only 500 worlds.

They control 500 worlds, yes. Regardless, they can still tap into the raw materials available on countless uninhabited or uninhabitable worlds, asteroids, and other stellar bodies they would have uncontested access to.

Given that this isn't an ideological war, I doubt we'd have such a split by class, but we could still have similar problems.

So why would anyone beyond the people indoctrinated with Sith philosophy during Revan's campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars defect?

I'm refering to the 34000 years out of 35000 that the Republic is not involved in warfare. If it is such a superfactory, why wouldn't any company make one to run its opponents out of business? A Stellar Forge is the ultimate in economies of scale.

I've already given several reasons why, even if they're completely irrelevent, unless you're going to contest the validity of the G0-T0 quote you graciously posted.

The idea that no one in the Republic ever thought of the idea is ludicrous. Remember, even though the Star Forge is a dark side empowered battlestation/factory, there is nothing it does that requires the force that can't be done with technology. Why didn't anyone ever make a stripped down version for consumer goods? Republic companies are big enough that it would be profitable.

Refer above.

[Samuel]

The temples are stone structures, the Star Forge is a giant space station. Its existence requires at least some degree of mechanization.

Some does not equal built with droids. Obviously the slaves did not use their bare hands, but the Empire managed to pull of forced labor to build the first Death Star.

They control 500 worlds, yes. Regardless, they can still tap into the raw materials available on countless uninhabited or uninhabitable worlds, asteroids, and other stellar bodies they would have uncontested access to.

Except they only have the 500 worlds to tap on for their shipping, energy production and the like to exploit the other planets and systems in the galaxy.

So why would anyone beyond the people indoctrinated with Sith philosophy during Revan's campaigns in the Mandalorian Wars defect?

Because the Republic was so pathetically weak that it nearly lost to a bunch of thugs from the borders of known space? The current government was unable to protect its citizens from the depredations of the Mandalorian invasion and Raven was. Legitamacy is confered by being able to defend territory, not just administer it.

I've already given several reasons why, even if they're completely irrelevent, unless you're going to contest the validity of the G0-T0 quote you graciously posted.

If a reason is irrelevant than it is irrelevant. What are you trying to say here?

[TC Pilot]

If a reason is irrelevant than it is irrelevant. What are you trying to say here?

I'm saying I don't need to offer an explanation why no one else built a Star Forge, because it doesn't change the fact the Star Forge represented at least a significant amount of the Sith's productive capability, a capability equal to a significant percentage of the galactic industry.

[Samuel]

If a reason is irrelevant than it is irrelevant. What are you trying to say here?

I'm saying I don't need to offer an explanation why no one else built a Star Forge, because it doesn't change the fact the Star Forge represented at least a significant amount of the Sith's productive capability, a capability equal to a significant percentage of the galactic industry.

I'm sorry my point wasn't clear. I was saying that
if the Star Forge was an efficient investment
than someone else would build one

Since they didn't, that means it is less effective than conventional means
which means that the significantly larger republic should be able to outproduce it just using conventional shipyards.

[TC Pilot]

Since they didn't, that means it is less effective than conventional means
which means that the significantly larger republic should be able to outproduce it just using conventional shipyards.

And, assuming that's true, has what to do with anything I've been saying?

[Samuel]

Since they didn't, that means it is less effective than conventional means
which means that the significantly larger republic should be able to outproduce it just using conventional shipyards.

And, assuming that's true, has what to do with anything I've been saying?

I am implying that the Republics industrial capacity should be much larger than the Star Forges potential. If no one the Republixc never bother to build something comparable than it must have some costs that make it less effecient. I'm not talking about dark side costs- presumably everything can be replicated with technology.

[TC Pilot]

If no one the Republixc never bother to build something comparable than it must have some costs that make it less effecient. I'm not talking about dark side costs- presumably everything can be replicated with technology.

Whether or not the Star Forge is less efficient than it's comparative cost in factories (entirely an assumption on your part, by the way) is irrelevant. It still produced shitloads of capital ships, fighters, guns, war droids, etc.

[White Haven]

More to the point, it's a wonderful thing to have when you don't have much of a shipyard infrastructure of your own. Not much use to a galaxy-spanning government, solid gold to a covert organization if they're large enough to provide skeleton crews.

[Samuel]

If no one the Republixc never bother to build something comparable than it must have some costs that make it less effecient. I'm not talking about dark side costs- presumably everything can be replicated with technology.

Whether or not the Star Forge is less efficient than it's comparative cost in factories (entirely an assumption on your part, by the way) is irrelevant. It still produced shitloads of capital ships, fighters, guns, war droids, etc.

It is an assumption based on the fact no one else ever builds one.

As for production my point was that the Republic has a larger industrial base than the Infinite Empire and should be able to out build them.