Preview of the new Posleen War book: Eye of the Storm

[Imperial Overlord]

I didn't say Watch on the Rhine was insane, I said it was trash and predictable trash at that complete with dirty race-traitor Greens stabbing Germany in the back (complete with gloating execution of said race traitors, no need to find subtext there) while SS he-men save civilization.

[consequences]

Kratmann might be a better writer, evaluating purely by technical skills, than Ringo. He's also a much larger batshit insane right wing asshat(although as The Last Centurion proves, the gap is shrinking). Oh, and he completely ignores the universe Ringo built, however shoddily, just so he can kill off a character at the last minute and have bigger battles with supertanks, so we can actually scratch better technical writer off the list too.

[CaptainChewbacca]

How do thye make it impossible for a man with an ice cream scooper and alot of time to undo? Or have the Darheel never heard of lobotomies? After all, if it is tied to their adrenal glands, just remove the suckers and give them artificial injections.

I don't think they ever said specifics, but it seemed that any agressive thought/action triggered a release of chemicals from different parts of the brain and caused permanent catatonia. Being as we're dealing with 'sufficiently advanced technology', I guess they couldn't figure it out, or perhaps contemplating re-engineering the brain structure also does it.

[consequences]

How do thye make it impossible for a man with an ice cream scooper and alot of time to undo? Or have the Darheel never heard of lobotomies? After all, if it is tied to their adrenal glands, just remove the suckers and give them artificial injections.

I don't think they ever said specifics, but it seemed that any agressive thought/action triggered a release of chemicals from different parts of the brain and caused permanent catatonia. Being as we're dealing with 'sufficiently advanced technology', I guess they couldn't figure it out, or perhaps contemplating re-engineering the brain structure also does it.

The Tchpht are the ones who would do the tweaking if anyone could, and they can't chug enough of the Alldenata cock.

A major plot point of Hero was the Darhel reaching the point where they could begin to work their way past and around it a little.

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't think they ever said specifics, but it seemed that any agressive thought/action triggered a release of chemicals from different parts of the brain and caused permanent catatonia. Being as we're dealing with 'sufficiently advanced technology', I guess they couldn't figure it out, or perhaps contemplating re-engineering the brain structure also does it.

It's quite obviously a plot hole. Aggression tends to trigger all sorts of biological reactions in animals, which you could use as a "coma" trigger. You couldn't possibly program that in for "contemplating the brain" and if they somehow had that skill they would have used it to make everyone nice and fluffy which they obviously didn't because the Darhel are still bastards, just ones that can't use direct violence. Any reasonable species would start to figure out how to turn off an implanted death switch as soon as they were able to do so, but if the Darhel did that then the humans wouldn't be special.

It's one of the universe's many plot holes along with no one else being able to come up with or copy human industrial mass production despite having thoroughly infiltrated the planet and having vastly superior technology, the huge amount of bad science, and "cold weather hurts the Posleen only in countries we want to survive."

[Ford Prefect]

What is wrong with that? A good idea can still be good if it is done right, even if it is old.

Except it's a terrible idea, designed purely to appeal to people who love it when humans are presented as being oh so superior to aliens. Also, your qualifier is useless here, as the Posleen books are also terrible.

I suspect the criticism comes from someone who has not actually read any of Kratman's novels.

I've never read anything by Kratman all the way through. Watch on the Rhine is one of the few books I have stopped reading at some point and made every attempt possible to forget what I've read. It was awful, and Kratman has very little merit as an author. You say that he explores various political and moral dilemmas, but no one with an agenda as strong as Kratman's can successfully do so. To really tackle a moral or political quandry you need objectivity, of which Kratman clearly has none.

[Darth Nostril]

All of the Posleenverse books are simply awful, crammed full of absurd plot devices and writers fiat.
Watch on the Rhine was merely the crowning turd on a pile of sewage.

[Count Chocula]

Watch on the Rhine was merely the crowning turd on a pile of sewage.

I've read all of Ringo et al's Posleen books, for the same reason I read all of Weber's Honor Harrington novels: they're sci-fi popcorn, on the level of Harry Harrison IMO. Having said that, Watch on the Rhine was a huge disappointment. I read it less than a year ago, and to be honest I can't remember any of the plot points, except that the resurrected SS was the last hope of a Eurotrash Germany.

Regarding the Darhel, I'm imagining that, based on the books so far (IIRC in Hell's Faire a Darhel almost went into lintatai just by indirectly ordering the "elimination" of Papa O'Neal), ANY contemplation of circumventing lintatai using outside agencies would induce a catatonic state in the Elves; as Imperial Overlord stated, there are lots of hooks (triggers) the Aldenata could use to muzzle the Darhel.

On the series in general, well shit it's apocalyptic, conspiracy-laden, galaxy-genetic-manipulating-by-departed near-deity, humanity-saves-the-day escapism. With cool guns, armor suits that marry Heinlein and William Gibson, pretty girls, upright men, land mobile 16-inch battleship guns, and heroic sacrifice galore. Pop up some Orvill Redenbacher's, and what's not to like?

[Imperial Overlord]

[

Regarding the Darhel, I'm imagining that, based on the books so far (IIRC in Hell's Faire a Darhel almost went into lintatai just by indirectly ordering the "elimination" of Papa O'Neal), ANY contemplation of circumventing lintatai using outside agencies would induce a catatonic state in the Elves; as Imperial Overlord stated, there are lots of hooks (triggers) the Aldenata could use to muzzle the Darhel.

No, I didn't. Reread what I said. Aggression triggers all sorts of physiological reactions in the body. Like massive amounts of adrenaline production in humans. That's relatively easy to set triggers for compared to the difference between "let's design a computer" and "let's study the brain." How do set a genetic trigger on studying specific kinds of biology, but not on other types of science or medical knowledge? We're talking about a genetically hardwired physiological reaction.

No, it's a giant fucking plot hole, of which the series has many.

[Count Chocula]

No, it's a giant fucking plot hole, of which the series has many.

Starting with the original premise of the Posleen. Omnivorous, sentient-eating, space-faring morons with hard-wired knowledge of high tech? After the first 100 pages of A Hymn Before Battle, it's pretty obvious the series is founded on an improbable premise.

No, I didn't. Reread what I said. Aggression triggers all sorts of physiological reactions in the body. Like massive amounts of adrenaline production in humans. That's relatively easy to set triggers for compared to the difference between "let's design a computer" and "let's study the brain." How do set a genetic trigger on studying specific kinds of biology, but not on other types of science or medical knowledge? We're talking about a genetically hardwired physiological reaction.

The desire to have someone killed is aggressive, right? Millennia-long resentment at obvious genetic manipulation (as of Yellow Eyes) would tend to trigger aggressive thoughts in a being with emotions remotely similar to ours, right? I think we're violently agreeing on the premise that the Darhel have been programmed to NOT overcome their urge to self-destruct by the Aldenata, who probably had a hand in programming the Tchpth and Indowy for nonagression as well, and likely as not programmed the Posleen as a counterbalance to any other tricks the Darhel could pull.

[Imperial Overlord]

No, it's a giant fucking plot hole, of which the series has many.

Starting with the original premise of the Posleen. Omnivorous, sentient-eating, space-faring morons with hard-wired knowledge of high tech? After the first 100 pages of A Hymn Before Battle, it's pretty obvious the series is founded on an improbable premise.

Thanks for agreeing.

No, I didn't. Reread what I said. Aggression triggers all sorts of physiological reactions in the body. Like massive amounts of adrenaline production in humans. That's relatively easy to set triggers for compared to the difference between "let's design a computer" and "let's study the brain." How do set a genetic trigger on studying specific kinds of biology, but not on other types of science or medical knowledge? We're talking about a genetically hardwired physiological reaction.

The desire to have someone killed is aggressive, right? Millennia-long resentment at obvious genetic manipulation (as of Yellow Eyes) would tend to trigger aggressive thoughts in a being with emotions remotely similar to ours, right? I think we're violently agreeing on the premise that the Darhel have been programmed to NOT overcome their urge to self-destruct by the Aldenata, who probably had a hand in programming the Tchpth and Indowy for nonagression as well, and likely as not programmed the Posleen as a counterbalance to any other tricks the Darhel could pull.

Haven't read Yellow Eyes. I stopped reading the series long before it and only read Watch on the Rhine to see how awful it would be. And again, you ignore my points that there is a completely different physiological reaction to violence that is not present from contemplating brain surgery or genetic research. There's something to tie a genetic kill switch to when "physiological condition x" occurs and is accompanied spiking hormone/adrenaline equivalent/heart beat levels that are big flags and indicators. How do you tie a genetic kill switch to specific thoughts?

If the Aldenata had magic mind control gene engineering they wouldn't need kill switches and they wouldn't have left the Darhel still bastards, etcetera, etcetera. The whole thing is a plot hole only slightly less stupid than the "cold prevents the Posleen from overrunning Canada, but Scandinavia and Russia are assboned by the centaurs."

[Samuel]

Overlords point is the same thing I stumbled upon- having aggression be a trigger means that the Darhel can die if they get spooked by sudden noise or movement, go into frightening situation or a phobia. Theoretically they could be killed of by the Indowy flooding their rooms with spiders.

Starting with the original premise of the Posleen. Omnivorous, sentient-eating, space-faring morons with hard-wired knowledge of high tech? After the first 100 pages of A Hymn Before Battle, it's pretty obvious the series is founded on an improbable premise.

Hey- it can be handwaved. The only problem is "hard-wired" but we can just pretend that it is all in their data nets and they have it implanted with cybernetics.

I read it less than a year ago, and to be honest I can't remember any of the plot points, except that the resurrected SS was the last hope of a Eurotrash Germany.

I remember it rather well. I can give the non-plot details if you guys want so you don't have to read it.

but Scandinavia and Russia are assboned by the centaurs."

Technically Scandanavia doesn't get conquered- the forces fall back there after Germany falls.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The whole thing is a plot hole only slightly less stupid than the "cold prevents the Posleen from overrunning Canada, but Scandinavia and Russia are assboned by the centaurs."

The original timeline has been retconned, to the point where there were now holdouts in Scotland, Russia, Sweden, China, Nepal, and Japan. Still, though, only the US/Canada was capable of fielding an offensive military force at the time the siege of earth broke.

[Count Chocula]

If the Aldenata had magic mind control gene engineering they wouldn't need kill switches and they wouldn't have left the Darhel still bastards, etcetera, etcetera. The whole thing is a plot hole only slightly less stupid than the "cold prevents the Posleen from overrunning Canada, but Scandinavia and Russia are assboned by the centaurs."

Ahh, but it will all be esplained in the magnum opus, the forthcoming Deities' Return set after Yellow Eyes, wherein humanity defeats a returned and abortively ascendent Aldenata, re-programs the Crabs to stop fidgeting, restores to the Indowy a spine and the concept of "zero population growth," changes the Posleen back into introspective sentient herbivores, and restores the Himmits' confidence so they can once again show themselves and stop skulking in the shadows! But, being perverse vengeful Hu-Mons, we leave the Darhel just as they are for spite.

Oh yeah, and Sharon O'Neal gets re-lifed.

[Junghalli]

You couldn't possibly program that in for "contemplating the brain" and if they somehow had that skill they would have used it to make everyone nice and fluffy which they obviously didn't because the Darhel are still bastards, just ones that can't use direct violence.

This is why I had always figured that the Darhel were originally a race of slave soldiers or assassins for the Aldenata. Their biology makes a hell of a lot more sense that way. The Aldenata wouldn't have wanted to make them nice, they'd have wanted to make them aggressive wicked-awesome killers, but they'd need a safeguard to make sure they could never rebel. Hence they engineer in the Lintanai, which forces them to be perfectly well-behaved pets in times of peace, but which the Aldenata could turn off at will in times of war, via a method that they and they alone have access to (probably some sort of drug).

Unfortunately, apparently this comparatively sensible explanation is no longer open to us.

[Crom]

I've never read one of the Posleen War books, but reading this thread has made wonder if it's like WH40k? The humans in crazy wank-tech power suits killing genetically altered alien puppets of godlike masters does sound vaguely familiar.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I've never read one of the Posleen War books, but reading this thread has made wonder if it's like WH40k? The humans in crazy wank-tech power suits killing genetically altered alien puppets of godlike masters does sound vaguely familiar.

It's... getting there. They even have psykers, there's just no malevolent force of Chaos.

[Darth Hoth]

Hoth, Kratman's style consists of character assassinating and strawmanning anything to the left of the American far right. I've actually bothered to finish (not pay for) Watch on the Rhine just to see how bad it was. I've read good military sci-fi. Kratman's not worthy of licking David Drake's boots.

I have not read that much Drake myself (Hammer's Slammers and some of the Stirling collaborations, mostly), but I would maintain that Kratman is among the premier authors in his field. His understanding of military matters is good overall, and his descriptions evocative (battle scenes and general banter, that is - any complicated human interactions are executed poorly at best). And while the political strawmanning is considerable, Watch on the Rhine was not that terrible. Given how Greens generally are (our Swedish ones base their candidacy to the European Parliament on a platform of stopping all oil and coal extraction), that caricature is far closer to the truth than, say, the one he usually pulls of the Democrats.

Kratmann might be a better writer, evaluating purely by technical skills, than Ringo. He's also a much larger batshit insane right wing asshat(although as The Last Centurion proves, the gap is shrinking). Oh, and he completely ignores the universe Ringo built, however shoddily, just so he can kill off a character at the last minute and have bigger battles with supertanks, so we can actually scratch better technical writer off the list too.

Many of his opinions arguably belong to the right of centre, but that does not prevent him from writing enjoyable stories. (Ringo, on the contrary, is apparently some sort of extreme militarist-libertarian and writes like your average high school student fanfic writer.) Kratman's developments of the Posleenverse have also generally been positive (uber tanks are better than uber armor, even if they have their own problems). Up to Yellow Eyes at least, that story did indeed go rather insane . . .

[Darth Hoth]

Except it's a terrible idea, designed purely to appeal to people who love it when humans are presented as being oh so superior to aliens. Also, your qualifier is useless here, as the Posleen books are also terrible.

No argument there, on the quality of the universe.

I've never read anything by Kratman all the way through. Watch on the Rhine is one of the few books I have stopped reading at some point and made every attempt possible to forget what I've read. It was awful, and Kratman has very little merit as an author. You say that he explores various political and moral dilemmas, but no one with an agenda as strong as Kratman's can successfully do so. To really tackle a moral or political quandry you need objectivity, of which Kratman clearly has none.

No one is entirely objective when it comes to politics, or he would not care about it. But generally, I would disagree; Kratman explores problems, and devises solutions that make sense from his position. Regardless of whether the reader agrees with his arguments or not, they certainly provoke thought and debate. Take Watch on the Rhine; the central issue there is, "What will humanity do to survive?" How far will we push ourselves in such a situation, and might it perhaps be farther than required? By the end of the story, the SS has adapted to Germany, but Germany (and Europe) has also adapted to the SS; by then, the two are close to interchangeable. This kind of social evolution is very reminiscent of how such things happen in actual war (although exaggerated, here, with the SS used partly as an allegory), and a very interesting feature of military sci-fi. I would say Kratman describes it rather well.

Having said that, Watch on the Rhine was a huge disappointment. I read it less than a year ago, and to be honest I can't remember any of the plot points, except that the resurrected SS was the last hope of a Eurotrash Germany.

I do think it was poor taste and bad logic to hold up the Waffen-SS in the apologist manner they did; the Heer veterans could have done a better job in the same function, and more believably due to there being many more of them. The message there was essentially that humanity needed Second World War level ruthlessness and total war to survive the Posleen onslaught, and then Kratman elaborated that to SS specifically for shock effect (according to the afterword) - it was supposed to be an allegory. There was also the point in the good guy's redemption from his troubled past.

[consequences]

Whoop-dee fucking doo, shock effect. They could have had individual rejuved SS veterans for that without making the SS the only ones who ever accomplished a damned thing against the Posleen. A better answer is that Kratmann is a gods-bedamned SS apologist, in addition to all the other ways that he's a reprehensible piece of shit. Next, we'll have the veterans of the Rape of Nanking being the only ones that stop the Posleen from overrunning all of Japan.

The only debate they provoke is whether he's more batshit insane than Williamson, I tend towards no, since he doesn't heap on the steaming hypocrisy and blatant stupidity with his vile opinions. This just makes him worse as a person, since he has a consistent framework supporting his asshattery.

[Aaron]

I've never read one of the Posleen War books, but reading this thread has made wonder if it's like WH40k? The humans in crazy wank-tech power suits killing genetically altered alien puppets of godlike masters does sound vaguely familiar.

Like Chewie says, it's getting there but the series lacks the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" aspect of WH40K.

[Beowulf]

It's one of the universe's many plot holes along with no one else being able to come up with or copy human industrial mass production despite having thoroughly infiltrated the planet and having vastly superior technology

You mean besides the fact that the Elves don't want to allow mass production because it allows them greater control? Lack of mass production keeps prices artificially high, allowing them to keep the Indowy subjugated.

[Vehrec]

It's one of the universe's many plot holes along with no one else being able to come up with or copy human industrial mass production despite having thoroughly infiltrated the planet and having vastly superior technology

You mean besides the fact that the Elves don't want to allow mass production because it allows them greater control? Lack of mass production keeps prices artificially high, allowing them to keep the Indowy subjugated.

Except that makes no sense. If they have highly automated mass production, then they wouldn't need the Indowy to do ANYTHING. They have AIs and fully automated production in universe, so if they ever went to mass production, they would drive the entire Indowy race into obsolescence and unemployment. High prices would not be anywhere near as effective as total control over all production and distribution for maintaining the Federation as a Darhel dominated state.

[Imperial Overlord]

Kratmann is a hack. His battles aren't interesting and his characterizations are cardboard.

He doesn't explore moral dilemmas. Other authors do that. Kratmann instead posses what appears to be a moral dilemma and then stacks all the weight on one side while strawmanning the other side so the reader is forced into Kratmann's preferred answer.

Note the following in Watch:

1) SS apologism from the start of the book, complete with such wonderfully honest statements that they weren't all enthusiastic Nazis or that loyal to Hitler.

2) Totally dishonest presentation of German politics, with the Greens being presented as both a major party and the only party on the left (you wouldn't know the Social Demoncrats existed from reading this book) as anti-SS, anti-military and traitors to the human race. There is no consideration of the effects on German militarism if the public knew a literal horde of baby eating aliens are coming to kill them all.

3) The SS as literally the only competent fighters in Europe. Revived Wehrmacht vets? French Foreign Legion? All the rest? All pussies. Right thinking Frenchmen, Jews, and Poles join the SS he-men.

4) One token evil SS officer. That's all right our hero went to Israel and married a Jew. Whole atrocity issue can be swept under the rug with our pro-Israel hero and his murder of the evil dude at the end.

There is no attempt to create a dilemma, except in the marketing on the back jacket of the book. There is only one acceptable answer, thanks to Kartmann loading the scales: let the really not that evil SS dudes save Europe or side with the dirty race traitors and die.

[Darth Hoth]

1) SS apologism from the start of the book, complete with such wonderfully honest statements that they weren't all enthusiastic Nazis or that loyal to Hitler.

That is the truth, like it or not. A large amount of those who joined the SS (Allgemeine- or Waffen-) were simple careerists who saw better prospects for advancement there than elsewhere, and cared about Hitler second hand. I have read that as much as one third of the initial Verfügungstruppe candidates failed their Political Education Course.

Of course, I would imagine Kratman is rather talking about the much fewer "National Legions" members and anti-Bolshevik Volunteers, who joined to fight Communism (not necessarily out of Nazi sympathies); those would be more to his liking.

In any case, I would not dispute that there is clear apologism for the Waffen-SS (with strawman arguments such as "everyone killed prisoners"); basically Kratman ignores the Eastern Front completely in his depiction (except to ridicule the Red Army a little), focusing on the more law-abiding combat in the West. It is just that your examples were ill-chosen. Of course, this is a serious problem for the novel.

2) Totally dishonest presentation of German politics, with the Greens being presented as both a major party and the only party on the left (you wouldn't know the Social Demoncrats existed from reading this book) as anti-SS, anti-military and traitors to the human race. There is no consideration of the effects on German militarism if the public knew a literal horde of baby eating aliens are coming to kill them all.

A lot of people would demonstrate abject denial as their response to such news (as was, if I recall correctly, portrayed in several anti-war demonstrators). Not everyone, but certainly enough to be a major impediment to those who would recognise the danger. And, well, Greens are extremely anti-military, if my experience with those we have here and their political programmes is any indicator.

The politics are odd in their composition, though; apparently, the Greens are the major Leftist party (not the only one, though; they name a Communist leader also as a chief Darhel pawn), and both Communists and open neo-Nazis hold seats in the Bundestag. I suppose the news of the Posleen invasion made a mess of the recent elections, but even so . . .

3) The SS as literally the only competent fighters in Europe. Revived Wehrmacht vets? French Foreign Legion? All the rest? All pussies. Right thinking Frenchmen, Jews, and Poles join the SS he-men.

Switzerland held out also, I believe, as did Britain, though they were only mentioned in passing. The distinguishing factor for the SS Corps appears to have been mostly it being directly under the Chancellor's command, as well as its large percentage of rejuvs; the others were simply mismanaged and sabotaged by the Darhel and their pawns, and could have made a much better showing otherwise. The Heer veterans it was heavily implied were spread out and placed in positions of little authority, destroying much of their positive impact on the fighting.

4) One token evil SS officer. That's all right our hero went to Israel and married a Jew. Whole atrocity issue can be swept under the rug with our pro-Israel hero and his murder of the evil dude at the end.

There, it was more about one man coming to peace with himself. The redemption of the SS as such would be its defence of Europe, holding the last line while those left behind escaped (payment in blood, so to speak). I am personally somewhat uncomfortable with that; as noted, I would have preferred if he had not made such a big deal of the SS veterans and simply focused on the Second World War veterans in general. It does, however, pose more clearly the moral question of what the Posleen War turned humanity into (especially apparent in the last chapters and the epilogue).