Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/ ... joice_5640
European Communion:
Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries are Becoming More Christian
By Phillip Longman, New America Foundation
The Washington Monthly | July/August 2007

Americans of all political stripes tend to see what they want to see in the European Union. For progressives, its example is supposed to show how a robust welfare state, including universal health care, is consistent with prosperity. It’s also supposed to show how separation of church and state, multilateralism, multiculturalism, opposition to the death penalty, embrace of gay marriage, state-sponsored preschool, gun control, the Kyoto Treaty, and other progressive causes are all consistent with a just and sustainable civilization -- indeed, with becoming a "moral superpower."

And so we have received books like Mark Leonard’s Why Europe Will Run the 21st Century (2005), which extols the EU’s ability to attract new nations into its orbit and convert them to its secular, humanistic values by force of moral example. "The EU has a way of accommodating and nurturing diversity in a liberal way," Leonard explains. "It has a set of norms that are essentially about respecting difference -- the rule of law, human rights, etc., which it embodies in its relations with other countries."

Americans holding traditional religious and conservative values, meanwhile, have their worldview confirmed by a different vision of Europe. It’s a Europe that forgot to have children and is now well on the way to committing slow-motion "autogenocide," that is overrun by hostile immigrants, that is economically stagnant, that can no longer afford its welfare state, that is militarily irrelevant, and that at the end of the day cannot even find the voice to defend its most politically correct values, such as freedom of speech and sexual equality,when attacked by Islamic fundamentalists.

And so we get books like Mark Steyn’s America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It (2006), in which the conservative columnist writes Europe’s obituary, ascribing its death to godlessness, narcissism, relativism, pacifism, and willful sterility. "Europe by the end of this century will be a continent after the neutron bomb," Steyn writes. "The grand buildings will still be standing but the people who built them will be gone. And long before the Maldive Islands are submerged by ‘rising sea levels’ every Spaniard and Italian will be six feet under." This spring, conservative Walter Laqueur published a more sober and mournful obituary, The Last Days of Europe: Epitaph for an Old Continent, in which the best he can say is that "decadence is attractive and infectious," and that maybe Europe’s invading Muslims will fall for it.

So who is right? A new offering from Penn State historian Philip Jenkins provides a brilliantly researched, intellectually honest, and surprising account of Europe’s cultural future. In God’s Continent: Christianity, Islam, and Europe’s Religious Crisis, Jenkins is guardedly optimistic, though not for reasons that will leave most secular Americans comfortable. Europe will survive, indeed will flourish. But in the process, it will become far more religious and morally conservative.

One reason is simple demography. In a society in which childless and single-children families have become the norm, an overwhelmingly large share of the children who are born descend from highly conservative, religious parents who follow the injunction of the Bible and the Koran to go forth and multiply. Jenkins makes this more than just an abstract proposition by providing on-the-ground reporting of a Christian reawakening that is already occurring in Europe.

How many Americans would have guessed, for example, that the Catholic Church is now flourishing in London? Jenkins quotes one parishioner, "We used to celebrate Mass three times on a Sunday and we were never full. Now we have six or eight services every Sunday and people are standing outside in the street." Britain is still very secular compared to the United States. In 2001, only 33 percent of adults attended church during the Christmas season, but by 2005, that number had surged to 43 percent. In part, these numbers reflect the migration of Polish Catholics to Britain in recent years. But around Britain, American-style Protestant megachurches are also flourishing, such as Holy Trinity in Brompton, which now attracts 3,000 to its Sunday services and is organized into lay-led groups of twenty-five to thirty members who meet fortnightly.

In a particularly elucidative chapter entitled "Faith Among the Ruins," Jenkins points to similar examples of religious revival across Europe. The number of young Italian women entering convents is surging. In 2005, the German Protestant Convention in Hanover attracted a record crowd of 400,000. In Finland, most people may be fed up with the official Lutheran Church, but large numbers of urban teenagers and young adults are flocking to the alternative "Thomas Mass," which is based on liturgical traditions of the Lutheran Church, heavily influenced by ecumenicism. Jenkins estimates that Europe’s evangelicals, charismatics, and Pentecostals, many of them immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa, outnumber Muslims by almost two to one, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

When I first read Jenkins’s book, my reaction was "interesting, if true." But as it happened, I found myself in Poland this May, and was surprised to discover the Catholic churches of Warsaw and Krakow filled to the last pew -- and not just with old ladies, but with enthusiastic young professionals and their children as well. Religious icons, like the black Madonna of Czestochowa, attract throngs of pilgrims, as does the birthplace of Pope John Paul II. A three-day conference of the World Congress of Families in Warsaw, at which I was a token backsliding secularist speaker, drew thousands of religious conservatives from across Europe who vibrated with energy.

The reason more Americans aren’t aware of these trends, Jenkins argues, is because most of what they know about Europe is filtered first by the European media, which are overwhelmingly secular and generally hostile to organized religion. "European accounts of religious life all but ignore significant trends or events, and this lack of attention means that these movements receive little attention elsewhere."

For similar reasons, most Americans have little conception of how conservative ordinary Europeans are on a wide range of other issues. For example, no European country has practiced capital punishment since 1981. Because of the ability of elites to control public discussion, the issue is simply off the table. Yet, as Jenkins reports, majorities in most European countries support the death penalty, as well as much tougher stands on criminal justice. Similarly, the European "man in the street" opposes much else the European Union stands for, including sheltering asylum seekers and promoting "positive discrimination" (affirmative action) for Muslim youths. Americans who don’t pay close attention get only hints of what a "red state" Europe is becoming -- as when, for example, a majority of voters in France and the Netherlands unexpectedly rejects the proposed EU constitution (in 2005), or when France elects a "law and order" president like Nicolas Sarkozy.

"Putting all these various issues together," Jenkins concludes, "we can envision a near future Europe that is anything but uniformly secular." The number of Christians may decline, along with Europe’s population as a whole, but they will account for a larger, and presumably louder, share of the population.

The influence of European Muslims will also grow. But their numbers are, as Jenkins points out, still quite small. The largest concentration of Muslims is in France, at about 8 percent of the population. In the Netherlands, 6.3 percent of the population is Muslim, and Jenkins notes that in all other current EU countries, just 4.3 percent are Muslim. Furthermore, there is great diversity within Europe’s Muslim citizenry. The Turks who dominate Germany’s Muslim population do not even speak the same language as France’s Algerians, much less Britain’s Pakistanis. Moreover, polls suggest that Muslims living in Europe generally express far more positive attitudes toward Christians -- 91 percent in France, 82 percent in Spain, and 71 percent in Britain -- than do Muslims in their countries of origin. Though European Muslims are generally hostile to Jews, they are less so than Muslims living elsewhere in the world. And, as Jenkins points out, violent fundamentalists are a very tiny minority of all practicing Muslims.

Such considerations lead Jenkins to make an optimistic comparison with the United States’ historical experience with Catholic immigration. "Fears that the nation would be swamped by immigrants, perhaps by revolutionary force, provoked Protestants to mobilize in some of the largest mass movements ever seen in American history," he reminds us, "above all, the Ku Klux Klan of the early 1920s." If there is friction between Muslim immigrants and the native stock of Europe today, just be patient, Jenkins councils. "Let us make a fair comparison: just how well was the United States doing with assimilation in 1925 or so?"

This particular comparison strikes me as strained. Americans in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century did experience terrorism from self-styled anarchists and unionists, many of them immigrants (for example, the Haymarket bombing, the McKinley assassination). But there were never any Catholic equivalents of today’s Islamic suicide bombers. Nor did Catholic crusaders assassinate people over cartoons. Moreover, to suggest that it is no great cause for alarm if Europe witnesses the resurgence of movements akin to the KKK for a generation or two strikes me as less than comforting.

Still, a confrontation between a resurgent Christianity in Europe and a militant Islam is not necessarily the new battle line in European society. Indeed, as I was reminded at the World Congress of Families in Warsaw, conservative Christians and conservative Muslims living in Europe have much more in common with each other on many issues -- notably abortion, euthanasia, and "family values" -- than they do with Europe’s childless relativistic secularists. Time and again, speakers at the conference made this point. We are all People of the Book. The true infidels are the secularists who deny a role for the God of Abraham in public life, and who in the name of human rights and personal liberation create a "culture of death."

If one defines European civilization by the public philosophy of the European Union, including its embrace of secularism and multiculturalism, then that Europe is definitely in demographic decline. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that this Europe forgot to have children and thereby lost much of its influence over the evolution of European society while also undermining the sustainability of its welfare state. If, however, one defines European civilization by its Judeo-Christian traditions, including its long history of both confronting and adapting to Islamic influences, then Europe looks poised for rejuvenation.

God’s Continent: Christianity, Islam, and Europe’s Religious Crisis
by Philip Jenkins
Oxford University Press, 352 pp.


Copyright 2007, Washington Monthly
Well, that's a rather unnerving look at a possible future.

Discuss.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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OP article wrote:One reason is simple demography. In a society in which childless and single-children families have become the norm, an overwhelmingly large share of the children who are born descend from highly conservative, religious parents who follow the injunction of the Bible and the Koran to go forth and multiply. Jenkins makes this more than just an abstract proposition by providing on-the-ground reporting of a Christian reawakening that is already occurring in Europe.
The book's author and the article writer make a common mistake - the idea that beliefs are genetic, instead of environmental. Sure, the parents' beliefs may be copied ("inherited") by the children, but it is just as likely that they won't, especially when those children are brought up in a liberal society where they are regularly exposed to other ideas. Most atheists were raised as Christians or other religious.

Also, the claims of Europe becoming more Christian is in contrast to actual survey results, and records of church attendances in Britain. To cite the attendance at one Polish Catholic Church on one particular day as proving anything is naive - the church may be full because the church buildings some of the people used to go to are now something else. Also, one must compare the number of people in that church (& other churches) with the size of the overall national population.

Also, the title of the article contradicts the very paragraph I quoted - that claims both Xians AND Muslims will have bigger families [which anyway simply isn't true - as as affluence gained smaller families become the norm].
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

Post by Oskuro »

More Christian my ass. People turn to the church when they are about to marry, or about to die, and then conveniently forget about the practice in between.

As B5B7 points out, this smells of spin-doctoring the numbers so they say what they want them to say, just as the church waves the number of baptized citizens as proof of their influence and their need for tax cuts, but conveniently forget to point out that all you need to become part of the church is getting sprinkled with water as a baby, getting out of it is a lot of paperwork (or used to be) scientifically designed so the common lazy person won't even bother.

As for the whole religious families spreading the faith, I must concede that some of the most fervent zealots (Opus Dei, for example) have a whole infrastructure set in place to brainwash their children and prevent outer influence (private schools, youngsters staying at a dorm of sorts until they marry, and of course, countless limitations on what their life should be like), but since these types also need inordinate amounts of money, they'll always be a minority (no kidding, being rich is practically a prerequisite to be part of the Opus Dei, at least as it is perceived around here).
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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The book's author and the article writer make a common mistake - the idea that beliefs are genetic, instead of environmental. Sure, the parents' beliefs may be copied ("inherited") by the children, but it is just as likely that they won't, especially when those children are brought up in a liberal society where they are regularly exposed to other ideas. Most atheists were raised as Christians or other religious.
But what about hardcore fundies? They gather in communities big enough to push out 'godless', liberal society out e.g. there are places in the UK where Haredi Jews live in a relatively self-contained community thousands strong, away from tv or the internet. I'd be interested to know what the statistics of retention are in those groups.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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Those numbers are so spin-doctored and cherrypicked they have no relation to reality at all. They are also based on the American style of religiosity where people broadcast their faith loudly to everyone in range. Even among the very religious in Europe, this is not done the same way.

What the article does is offer a good view into the mind of the kind of American conservatives who are deathly afraid of being left alone in the dark and who also like to cling to the idea that they are somehow destined to be speshul and superior to everyone else, the last defenders against the infidels. Fucking morons...
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

Post by Tiriol »

My beef with the article is that it immediately assumes that just because someone is religious, he or she is likely to be a fundamentalist or at least a fundamentalist-in-the-making (showing that indeed, US bias is shining through).

On the other hand, it is also rather sad to see that even according to the writer, there are only two opinions of the EU and Europe in general in USA: "nice and cozy SuperNannystate" and "evil and stagnating atheist immoral Nannystate".
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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hongi wrote:But what about hardcore fundies? They gather in communities big enough to push out 'godless', liberal society out e.g. there are places in the UK where Haredi Jews live in a relatively self-contained community thousands strong, away from tv or the internet. I'd be interested to know what the statistics of retention are in those groups.
Because they keep to themselves, noone gives a shit about them. Also since their beliefs would only be echoed politically by the most looney fringe parties, there is no way in hell they can have any real influence in state politics anyway so again noone gives a shit.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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What utter idiocy.
And so we get books like Mark Steyn’s America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It (2006), in which the conservative columnist writes Europe’s obituary, ascribing its death to godlessness, narcissism, relativism, pacifism, and willful sterility. "Europe by the end of this century will be a continent after the neutron bomb," Steyn writes. "The grand buildings will still be standing but the people who built them will be gone. And long before the Maldive Islands are submerged by ‘rising sea levels’ every Spaniard and Italian will be six feet under." This spring, conservative Walter Laqueur published a more sober and mournful obituary, The Last Days of Europe: Epitaph for an Old Continent, in which the best he can say is that "decadence is attractive and infectious," and that maybe Europe’s invading Muslims will fall for it.
So...Europe is supposed to be more decadent than the USA? Sorry, but who invented suburbia again? And who is widely running up debt to buy such things like big cars and big TV screens?

And Mark Steyn - 5000 years of warfare disagree with you.
One reason is simple demography. In a society in which childless and single-children families have become the norm, an overwhelmingly large share of the children who are born descend from highly conservative, religious parents who follow the injunction of the Bible and the Koran to go forth and multiply. Jenkins makes this more than just an abstract proposition by providing on-the-ground reporting of a Christian reawakening that is already occurring in Europe.
Oh, I love this. Instead of actually putting forth numbers, he uses on-the-ground reporting. BTW, studies have shown that children of conservative muslim immigrants get less fundamentalist with every generation, so much that in the third or fourth generation there is hardly any difference between them and normal Europeans.
How many Americans would have guessed, for example, that the Catholic Church is now flourishing in London? Jenkins quotes one parishioner, "We used to celebrate Mass three times on a Sunday and we were never full. Now we have six or eight services every Sunday and people are standing outside in the street." Britain is still very secular compared to the United States. In 2001, only 33 percent of adults attended church during the Christmas season, but by 2005, that number had surged to 43 percent. In part, these numbers reflect the migration of Polish Catholics to Britain in recent years.
Yes. I'll go even further and say that this is entirely due to immigrants from the east of Europe.
In a particularly elucidative chapter entitled "Faith Among the Ruins," Jenkins points to similar examples of religious revival across Europe. The number of young Italian women entering convents is surging.
True. But surging is a relative term - what are the total numbers? If it surged from 3.000 to 4.000, then that is no biggie.
In 2005, the German Protestant Convention in Hanover attracted a record crowd of 400,000.
As did the Pope visiting cologne. These are social events, more like giant parties with rock bands than anything fundamentalist or conservative. And the german protestants are very liberal - their lay leader is a member of the green party and it looks as if the next head-bishop of them will be a divorced woman.
When I first read Jenkins’s book, my reaction was "interesting, if true." But as it happened, I found myself in Poland this May,
Read no further. Poland is easily the most religious country in Europe and also the most fundamentalist. Using Poland as an example would be akin to me using Bill Gates as an indicator for the wealth of average americans.
Yet, as Jenkins reports, majorities in most European countries support the death penalty, as well as much tougher stands on criminal justice. Similarly, the European "man in the street" opposes much else the European Union stands for, including sheltering asylum seekers and promoting "positive discrimination" (affirmative action) for Muslim youths.
And nobody has ever been elected who campaigned on any of those issues. In fact, when a conservative politician tried to do so, he got taken down a notch by everyone.
Americans who don’t pay close attention get only hints of what a "red state" Europe is becoming -- as when, for example, a majority of voters in France and the Netherlands unexpectedly rejects the proposed EU constitution (in 2005)
Which had little to do with Europe turning into a red state. Even the "reddest" of European states would still be the "bluest" in the USA.
, or when France elects a "law and order" president like Nicolas Sarkozy.
His "law and order" is quite unlike american "law and order". And it is not like that was his only issue.

Interestingly, he is also the most rigid defender of secularism, a fact Jenkins apparently overlooks. Dishonest reporting for the win.
If one defines European civilization by the public philosophy of the European Union, including its embrace of secularism and multiculturalism, then that Europe is definitely in demographic decline.
Doubtful.
It is only a slight exaggeration to say that this Europe forgot to have children and thereby lost much of its influence over the evolution of European society while also undermining the sustainability of its welfare state. If, however, one defines European civilization by its Judeo-Christian traditions, including its long history of both confronting and adapting to Islamic influences, then Europe looks poised for rejuvenation.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

This article makes the same old mistakes and assumptions. Here's a few I spotted:

1) Assumption that lack of christianity = muslim takeover

2) Assumption that tendency of religious to breed = religious takeover

3) 'liberal' European media is silencing the 'moral majority'

All in all, it strikes me as a work of self-deception. These idiots cannot believe what is happening and are persuading themselves that it is all a bad dream.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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Also I love the idea that we're religious because the churches in Poland are full - it treats Europe as homogeonous. Its like suggesting that all of America is Baptist cause you went to Nashville.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

Post by Bluewolf »

The Washington Monthly | July/August 2007
I hate to be an idiot here but isnt this out of date? If your bringing it up just to dicuss thats fine, I just thought I'd point that out.

Anyway this article reeks of idiocy yet its a very nice example how some in the US view Europe. It is always a very skewered view. I love how they look at Poland for church numbers when Poland and by extension many Polish people are religious. I would very much like to see their backing on the whole capital punishment thing.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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So...Europe is supposed to be more decadent than the USA? Sorry, but who invented suburbia again? And who is widely running up debt to buy such things like big cars and big TV screens?
In the US decadent is code for "letting the gays marry" and other behaviors- I don't think consumerism is looked at as the main sign of decadence by these people.
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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Samuel wrote:
So...Europe is supposed to be more decadent than the USA? Sorry, but who invented suburbia again? And who is widely running up debt to buy such things like big cars and big TV screens?
In the US decadent is code for "letting the gays marry" and other behaviors- I don't think consumerism is looked at as the main sign of decadence by these people.
That's a complete redefinition of the word - being decadent means "characterized by or appealing to self-indulgence".

But hey, those guys can't even read the dictionary. Why am I not surprised?
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Re: Islamophobes Rejoice! EU Countries Becoming More Christian

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I you consider permitting extra-Biblical practices to be 'self-indulgent' - which from their rhetoric I think a lot of ReligioConservatives do - then their use of the word makes sense.
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