Moderator: NecronLord
Uh-huh...yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what would happenRight thinking Frenchmen, Jews, and Poles join the SS he-men.
Not really. There isn't any religious fanaticism, the main villians our our allies and the power armor does not make sense in universe unlike 40k. Not to mention that in 40K they have something called exterminatous to deal with alien infested worlds, but apparently the Galactics can't simply slag planets.Crom wrote:I've never read one of the Posleen War books, but reading this thread has made wonder if it's like WH40k? The humans in crazy wank-tech power suits killing genetically altered alien puppets of godlike masters does sound vaguely familiar.
That doesn't make alot of sense though. After all why should a complete denial of reality be rampant in Europe after the night sky has been lit up by burning warships and why are people selling out? Are they too dumb to realize it guarentees their own deaths?A lot of people would demonstrate abject denial as their response to such news (as was, if I recall correctly, portrayed in several anti-war demonstrators). Not everyone, but certainly enough to be a major impediment to those who would recognise the danger. And, well, Greens are extremely anti-military, if my experience with those we have here and their political programmes is any indicator.
The politics are odd in their composition, though; apparently, the Greens are the major Leftist party (not the only one, though; they name a Communist leader also as a chief Darhel pawn), and both Communists and open neo-Nazis hold seats in the Bundestag. I suppose the news of the Posleen invasion made a mess of the recent elections, but even so . . .
England didn't- it was over-run up to Scotland where they held. Switzerland simply buried the population, filled in the tunnels and waited.Switzerland held out also, I believe, as did Britain, though they were only mentioned in passing.
Than I shouldn't mention the Israeli division should I?PeZook wrote:Reading this thread was the first time I heard of Watch On The Rhine, and I think I gonna throw up.
Uh-huh...yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what would happenRight thinking Frenchmen, Jews, and Poles join the SS he-men.
Why the fucking SS of all things, anyway? What possible rationale could the Germans have for reviving the SS in order to fight alien hordes? It's like the US being faced with some danger and reviving, say, the Tamil Tigers to fight it.
Bullshit. As an organization, the SS was full of Nazis and was very loyal to Hitler. The presence of careerists and the ease of advance for less well socially connected officers in the SS does not mean the SS wasn't an organization filled with Nazis and loyal to Hitler. It was certainly loyaler to Hitler than the Wehrmacht. You cannot use the minority to exculpate the organization as a whole and that's exactly what Kratmann and you are doing right now. Not every SS man was a Nazi, but as a whole the SS was a Nazi organization. It ran the camps, it murdered Jews and other undesirables whole sale in the East, and it never turned on its political masters. Underplaying this truth is dishonest.Darth Hoth wrote: That is the truth, like it or not. A large amount of those who joined the SS (Allgemeine- or Waffen-) were simple careerists who saw better prospects for advancement there than elsewhere, and cared about Hitler second hand. I have read that as much as one third of the initial Verfügungstruppe candidates failed their Political Education Course.
Of course, I would imagine Kratman is rather talking about the much fewer "National Legions" members and anti-Bolshevik Volunteers, who joined to fight Communism (not necessarily out of Nazi sympathies); those would be more to his liking.
In any case, I would not dispute that there is clear apologism for the Waffen-SS (with strawman arguments such as "everyone killed prisoners"); basically Kratman ignores the Eastern Front completely in his depiction (except to ridicule the Red Army a little), focusing on the more law-abiding combat in the West. It is just that your examples were ill-chosen. Of course, this is a serious problem for the novel.
2) Totally dishonest presentation of German politics, with the Greens being presented as both a major party and the only party on the left (you wouldn't know the Social Demoncrats existed from reading this book) as anti-SS, anti-military and traitors to the human race. There is no consideration of the effects on German militarism if the public knew a literal horde of baby eating aliens are coming to kill them all.
This is evasive. Of course there are going to be people who don't believe. You can find those in any situation. This is no defence from the charge that Kratmann totally distorts German politics in order to set up his strawman. Nations under threat of immenent attack, let alone immenent attack by genocidal forces, become increasingly militaristic, not less.A lot of people would demonstrate abject denial as their response to such news (as was, if I recall correctly, portrayed in several anti-war demonstrators). Not everyone, but certainly enough to be a major impediment to those who would recognise the danger. And, well, Greens are extremely anti-military, if my experience with those we have here and their political programmes is any indicator.
The politics are odd in their composition, though; apparently, the Greens are the major Leftist party (not the only one, though; they name a Communist leader also as a chief Darhel pawn), and both Communists and open neo-Nazis hold seats in the Bundestag. I suppose the news of the Posleen invasion made a mess of the recent elections, but even so . . .
3) The SS as literally the only competent fighters in Europe. Revived Wehrmacht vets? French Foreign Legion? All the rest? All pussies. Right thinking Frenchmen, Jews, and Poles join the SS he-men.
Not a rebuttal to my points. What magic sabotage only affects non-SS units? Why are all non-SS units sabotaged by dirty race traitors? Why are there any dirty race traitors when they enemy is a bunch of baby eating aliens? Why can the military of no other country fight, even with rejuvinated veterans bolstering their ranks? None of these questions are answered, but that's because they can't be. The situation exists to make the SS indispensable.Switzerland held out also, I believe, as did Britain, though they were only mentioned in passing. The distinguishing factor for the SS Corps appears to have been mostly it being directly under the Chancellor's command, as well as its large percentage of rejuvs; the others were simply mismanaged and sabotaged by the Darhel and their pawns, and could have made a much better showing otherwise. The Heer veterans it was heavily implied were spread out and placed in positions of little authority, destroying much of their positive impact on the fighting.
4) One token evil SS officer. That's all right our hero went to Israel and married a Jew. Whole atrocity issue can be swept under the rug with our pro-Israel hero and his murder of the evil dude at the end.
The whole point of the book is SS apologism. The killing at the end is not about a man coming to peace with himself, it's about the token evil SS guy getting killed so the reader will be even more comfortable embracing the SS at the end, because they've been cleansed. If you're uncomfortable with it, it means you're less bat-shit insane that Kratmann and you should hold onto that feeling.There, it was more about one man coming to peace with himself. The redemption of the SS as such would be its defence of Europe, holding the last line while those left behind escaped (payment in blood, so to speak). I am personally somewhat uncomfortable with that; as noted, I would have preferred if he had not made such a big deal of the SS veterans and simply focused on the Second World War veterans in general. It does, however, pose more clearly the moral question of what the Posleen War turned humanity into (especially apparent in the last chapters and the epilogue).
Yes, SS Judas Maccabeus was a bit of a WTF moment. As for england holding out, there's a fanfic that Ringo liked so much it was declared canon, called Yeoman of England. I believe I have a copy of it, and can email it to anyone who PM's me.Than I shouldn't mention the Israeli division should I?
No, I am not kidding.
But we need a way to easily distinguish the penal battalions- something that instantly tell people "don't trust this man" while at the same time getting the prisoners a sense they are soldiers. What better way than the uniforms of the most reviled group in Europe- I''m sure that you have neo-nazi groups in prison it would work perfectly with.PeZook wrote:I still can't find a good reason to revive the SS, rather than creating a Super Awesome Alien Murdering Force without all the fucking baggage. Are we supposed to believe that today, wearing an SS uniform on the street will get you beaten up in Poland, but tomorrow when under threat of alien invasion, people are going to start putting this uniform on themselves? For what reason? They have perfectly good uniforms of their own goddamned armed forces to wear.
The SS divisions in Watch on the Rhine weren't penal battalions.Samuel wrote:But we need a way to easily distinguish the penal battalions- something that instantly tell people "don't trust this man" while at the same time getting the prisoners a sense they are soldiers. What better way than the uniforms of the most reviled group in Europe- I''m sure that you have neo-nazi groups in prison it would work perfectly with.
Excuse me, then, there must have been some misunderstanding. When I read this:Imperial Overlord wrote:Bullshit. As an organization, the SS was full of Nazis and was very loyal to Hitler. The presence of careerists and the ease of advance for less well socially connected officers in the SS does not mean the SS wasn't an organization filled with Nazis and loyal to Hitler. It was certainly loyaler to Hitler than the Wehrmacht. You cannot use the minority to exculpate the organization as a whole and that's exactly what Kratmann and you are doing right now. Not every SS man was a Nazi, but as a whole the SS was a Nazi organization. It ran the camps, it murdered Jews and other undesirables whole sale in the East, and it never turned on its political masters. Underplaying this truth is dishonest.
I thought that you were claiming that they were all enthusiastic Nazis. When a large subset of them were not, this appeared fallacious. If you only meant that the SS was set up as an ideologically National Socialist organisation and led by men of such persuasion, then that is certainly correct. But its membership was far from exclusively made up of committed Nazis. In addition to careerists and foreign volunteers, much of the manpower of the later-formed divisions was made up of conscripted Germans and Volksdeutsche.Imperial Overlord wrote:1) SS apologism from the start of the book, complete with such wonderfully honest statements that they weren't all enthusiastic Nazis or that loyal to Hitler.
This is evasive. Of course there are going to be people who don't believe. You can find those in any situation. This is no defence from the charge that Kratmann totally distorts German politics in order to set up his strawman. Nations under threat of immenent attack, let alone immenent attack by genocidal forces, become increasingly militaristic, not less.
From how I read the book, the SS Corps was kept separate from both the standard chain of command and the Darhel, answering directly to the Chancellor. This gave the "dirty race traitors" much fewer opportunities to sabotage them. They also, apparently, had better security due to Mühlenkampf's suspicious nature.What magic sabotage only affects non-SS units? Why are all non-SS units sabotaged by dirty race traitors?
Why did some Jews collaborate with Nazis that wanted to exterminate them all, and proved it? There is always a percentage that will sell out people and nation if they personally can benefit from it. Especially if they believe it is the only way to survive at all.Why are there any dirty race traitors when they enemy is a bunch of baby eating aliens?
First, uber Galactic tech was fairly rare, and available only to the countries that could send mercenaries to the Darhel (i.e., the major military powers). Smaller nations were basically left to fend for themselves, with much inferior weapons. This eliminates most of Europe. Of the major powers, Britain did hold some of its territory, as Germany did. France was trashed, of course, as is to be expected in American fiction.Why can the military of no other country fight, even with rejuvinated veterans bolstering their ranks? None of these questions are answered, but that's because they can't be. The situation exists to make the SS indispensable.
Well, if you put it like that . . . I certainly was disturbed by the ultra-nur Soldaten depiction of the SS in the book. I suppose few real Nazis would expose themselves by being openly unrepentant, so in a way it makes sense that the truly obnoxious ones are rare, but privately there should be a lot more of them floating about.The whole point of the book is SS apologism. The killing at the end is not about a man coming to peace with himself, it's about the token evil SS guy getting killed so the reader will be even more comfortable embracing the SS at the end, because they've been cleansed. If you're uncomfortable with it, it means you're less bat-shit insane that Kratmann and you should hold onto that feeling.
Kratman said in the afterword it was done on purpose for shock value and teh kewl. Thematically it might make sense, since one of the themes in the story is exploring what the total war turns human society into and holding them up as a dark mirror. Then again it might not, given the massive problems in depiction (and, apparently, Kratman's view of the Armed Division of the Schutzstaffel). In any case it is utter fiat, with no in-universe logic behind it.PeZook wrote:I still can't find a good reason to revive the SS, rather than creating a Super Awesome Alien Murdering Force without all the fucking baggage.
They were some curious inbetween, initially at least. On the one hand they were the Chancellor's Own; on the other, they were universally reviled and distrusted, and always got the worst jobs.CaptainChewbacca wrote:The SS divisions in Watch on the Rhine weren't penal battalions.
Which is not the SS Kratmann presents. He presents the majority of its membership as politically indifferent and dismissive of Hitler, which is most certainly not true.Darth Hoth wrote: If you only meant that the SS was set up as an ideologically National Socialist organisation and led by men of such persuasion, then that is certainly correct. But its membership was far from exclusively made up of committed Nazis. In addition to careerists and foreign volunteers, much of the manpower of the later-formed divisions was made up of conscripted Germans and Volksdeutsche.
This is evasive. Of course there are going to be people who don't believe. You can find those in any situation. This is no defence from the charge that Kratmann totally distorts German politics in order to set up his strawman. Nations under threat of immenent attack, let alone immenent attack by genocidal forces, become increasingly militaristic, not less.
And this refutes my critique that it in no way resembles the actual German political landscape and typical human behavior when they're nation is about to be attacked how? It doesn't. Major political parties vanish from the landscape. Minority movements are expanded to be mainstream. The Darhel corrupt people exclusively from one side of the political spectrum.They did shape up later; it was in the build-up, before the public had accepted the truth, that there was massive resistance and passive aggression against the military expansion.
What magic sabotage only affects non-SS units? Why are all non-SS units sabotaged by dirty race traitors?
Again, not credible that they're the only guys in Europe immune to sabotage. Given that the SS dates from age of warfare predating computers more advanced than code breakers and bomb sights, they should be more vulnerable to security holes, not less. Then there's every single nation in Europe being vulnerable to fifth column race traitor saboteurs. It isn't credible.From how I read the book, the SS Corps was kept separate from both the standard chain of command and the Darhel, answering directly to the Chancellor. This gave the "dirty race traitors" much fewer opportunities to sabotage them. They also, apparently, had better security due to Mühlenkampf's suspicious nature.
Why are there any dirty race traitors when they enemy is a bunch of baby eating aliens?
Except they aren't in the position of Jews in work camps who have to choose between dying now and living for a few more months. Those Jews, incidentally, lead a number of violent revolts in several camps. They were hardly enthusiastic collaborators and frequently turned on the Germans the moment they could. The collaborators in the Posleen series are people on the ground, who will still be on the ground when the Posleen hit. And they're somehow all left wing despite the Darhel's big leverage being having lots of money. It's not at all like Jewish survival based collaboration with Nazi authorities. It's the exact opposite.Why did some Jews collaborate with Nazis that wanted to exterminate them all, and proved it? There is always a percentage that will sell out people and nation if they personally can benefit from it. Especially if they believe it is the only way to survive at all.
The SS are the only ones presented as being able to fight well. The SS ubermen continue to be the best fighters, even after they string up all the dirty Green traitors and presented as Europe's only hope.First, uber Galactic tech was fairly rare, and available only to the countries that could send mercenaries to the Darhel (i.e., the major military powers). Smaller nations were basically left to fend for themselves, with much inferior weapons. This eliminates most of Europe. Of the major powers, Britain did hold some of its territory, as Germany did. France was trashed, of course, as is to be expected in American fiction.
Second, it was not only the SS that fought. They were one out of, what, fifteen Corps? For Germany to do as well as it did, they could scarcely have been the only ones to.
Of the survivors it could conceivably be a majority who would not be Nazis at all, or at least not admit to such after decades of demonisation (the nur Soldaten shtick has been pretty much the lifeline of most Waffen-SS veterans after the war). But as noted, I agree the portrayal as a whole is somewhat disturbing.Imperial Overlord wrote:Which is not the SS Kratmann presents. He presents the majority of its membership as politically indifferent and dismissive of Hitler, which is most certainly not true.
It was in response to your last line about militarism/pacifism. I agree the politics were crazy.And this refutes my critique that it in no way resembles the actual German political landscape and typical human behavior when they're nation is about to be attacked how? It doesn't. Major political parties vanish from the landscape. Minority movements are expanded to be mainstream.
The Darhel corrupt people exclusively from one side of the political spectrum.
They are not immune, they just suffer less from it. And much of it came from them not using the open datanet the Darhel provided the regular forces with, so they would not be hacked. As for the other Euros, they (except France and Britain) were already doomed due to complete lack of wank-weapons. The Darhel targeted Germany extra because they viewed it as the potentially most powerful country.Again, not credible that they're the only guys in Europe immune to sabotage. Given that the SS dates from age of warfare predating computers more advanced than code breakers and bomb sights, they should be more vulnerable to security holes, not less. Then there's every single nation in Europe being vulnerable to fifth column race traitor saboteurs. It isn't credible.
Dead wrong. We are shown that a major motivation for the Green leader, whatsisname, who seriously believes that the Earth is doomed and all hope lost, is that the Darhel promise to ship his family to a planet not threatened by the Posleen, and told that the same is true for others in the traitor clique. This is precisely the same mechanism as would make people, say, join the Jewish Order Service - you hope that you or your family will be allowed to live when others die. In the Green's case, he was prepared to die (and destroy his country) if his family could be saved for it.Except they aren't in the position of Jews in work camps who have to choose between dying now and living for a few more months. Those Jews, incidentally, lead a number of violent revolts in several camps. They were hardly enthusiastic collaborators and frequently turned on the Germans the moment they could. The collaborators in the Posleen series are people on the ground, who will still be on the ground when the Posleen hit. And they're somehow all left wing despite the Darhel's big leverage being having lots of money. It's not at all like Jewish survival based collaboration with Nazi authorities. It's the exact opposite.
We see very little of the regular forces, except for a badly trained unit very early in the war. The book focuses on the SS Corps, so they accordingly get most of the pages. Granted, the glorification of it was more than a little disturbing by the end (but then, that was arguably one of the points - how nasty postwar humanity was, showcased in particular in the destruction of the Darhel).The SS are the only ones presented as being able to fight well. The SS ubermen continue to be the best fighters, even after they string up all the dirty Green traitors and presented as Europe's only hope.
Didn't read Yellow Eyes and I don't recall that bit in Watch. Point conceded, although the ridiculousness of the sabotage is something I still stand by.Darth Hoth wrote:The Darhel corrupt people exclusively from one side of the political spectrum.
Untrue. In Yellow Eyes corrupt political bosses and the rich Panamanian elite are the main Darhel pawns, and Watch shows senior German military leaders, with a stuck-up Prussian Officer disdain for the plebeian SS, meet to co-ordinate their sabotage with the Communists and Greens.
Again, unconvincing. The tech backward SS would be more reliant on things like a datanet and massive amounts of crash training just to operate in a modern battlefield, let alone operate futuristic wank weapons on a modern battlefield.They are not immune, they just suffer less from it. And much of it came from them not using the open datanet the Darhel provided the regular forces with, so they would not be hacked. As for the other Euros, they (except France and Britain) were already doomed due to complete lack of wank-weapons. The Darhel targeted Germany extra because they viewed it as the potentially most powerful country.
Still not credible. For a few isolated cases, yes, but not a secret conspiracy.Dead wrong. We are shown that a major motivation for the Green leader, whatsisname, who seriously believes that the Earth is doomed and all hope lost, is that the Darhel promise to ship his family to a planet not threatened by the Posleen, and told that the same is true for others in the traitor clique. This is precisely the same mechanism as would make people, say, join the Jewish Order Service - you hope that you or your family will be allowed to live when others die. In the Green's case, he was prepared to die (and destroy his country) if his family could be saved for it.
The SS are the only ones presented as being able to fight well. The SS ubermen continue to be the best fighters, even after they string up all the dirty Green traitors and presented as Europe's only hope.
We see very little of the regular forces, except for a badly trained unit very early in the war. The book focuses on the SS Corps, so they accordingly get most of the pages. Granted, the glorification of it was more than a little disturbing by the end (but then, that was arguably one of the points - how nasty postwar humanity was, showcased in particular in the destruction of the Darhel).
Only up until the aftermath of the first wave. At that point, ALL of Germany wakes up and starts kicking ass, including the regular army. The SS had the best tanks, because they had the most experienced tankers survive the first wave, but that's about it.Yeah, but we are told repeatedly, by different characters, that it is the SS who are doing the heavy work. We don't see the rest of Europe's military, but we are told they suck compared to the SS all the fucking time.
Not true. The characters of other nationalities join the SS after the first wave because the SS are the best.CaptainChewbacca wrote:Only up until the aftermath of the first wave. At that point, ALL of Germany wakes up and starts kicking ass, including the regular army. The SS had the best tanks, because they had the most experienced tankers survive the first wave, but that's about it.Yeah, but we are told repeatedly, by different characters, that it is the SS who are doing the heavy work. We don't see the rest of Europe's military, but we are told they suck compared to the SS all the fucking time.
I was joking. Although bizarely enough the Germans do form penal battalions composed of criminals, cowards and people who tried to avoid service.CaptainChewbacca wrote:The SS divisions in Watch on the Rhine weren't penal battalions.Samuel wrote:But we need a way to easily distinguish the penal battalions- something that instantly tell people "don't trust this man" while at the same time getting the prisoners a sense they are soldiers. What better way than the uniforms of the most reviled group in Europe- I''m sure that you have neo-nazi groups in prison it would work perfectly with.
Foreign forces were mostly joining the SS because they were the only German military division designed to integrate foreign nationals from the get-go, and could take them with the least re-structuring. The 'SS men are the best' was a part of it, but they mention the logistical advantages several times.Imperial Overlord wrote:Not true. The characters of other nationalities join the SS after the first wave because the SS are the best.CaptainChewbacca wrote:Only up until the aftermath of the first wave. At that point, ALL of Germany wakes up and starts kicking ass, including the regular army. The SS had the best tanks, because they had the most experienced tankers survive the first wave, but that's about it.Yeah, but we are told repeatedly, by different characters, that it is the SS who are doing the heavy work. We don't see the rest of Europe's military, but we are told they suck compared to the SS all the fucking time.
Human forces WERE using every artillery piece they had to do just that. I'm not entirely sure what else they could have used, though they mention the 'neutron bomb' shells that were used to irradiate large swaths of posleen.On the subject of tanks, they mention using roundshot for their superheavies instead of flachette because they can can skewer multiple rows. Is there any other possible loadouts and why weren't human forces using artillary pieces to do that?
I'm not sure; other Ringo books (Princess of Wands; Council Wars; Empire of Man series with Weber, which ROCKS) don't seem to have the same bad stuff, and the Empire of Man series seems to have most of its political weirdness come from Weber. I think it's more this specific series - which is part of the reason I haven't really gotten into this one.Slacker wrote:With the bloat going on in this series, it's becoming rather more clear to me that Ringo's not primarily responsible for the Looking Glass series, instead it's mostly Taylor's baby. It's really...I don't know, startling, the difference. The Looking Glass series is absolutely popcorn scifi, but it's not bukkake like most of Ringo's later stuff.
Eh, maybe so. The area where I live is *very* Republican, conservative enough that her politics come across as pretty middle-of-the-road. It's certainly Republican-slanted, but it's not hyper-militaristic like a lot of his other stuff. (And even the Chinese abortion stuff is partially setup for an in-joke to the Empire of Man series.)consequences wrote:No, his other works generally have different bad stuff. Princess of Wands has the Mary-Sue Soccer mom effortlessly thrashing the liberal strawmen in political debate
I wouldn't say it's his *fault* - given the setup, the monarchy in Empire of Man makes lots of sense. (Really, any society which *relies* on super-long-term planning, as a lot of interstellar ones would, might be well served by a Weber-style monarchy.) OK, the 'evil environmentalist' Saints are over the top, but even so they don't seem an impossible development in 2000+ years of history from now (and I say this as an environmentalist myself). Even the best causes can get twisted - and in an era where easy space travel has made environmental destruction no longer really an issue (because living space is expanding far faster than population) I can see some of the harder-line environmental groups flipping over to extremism to stay in power.If you think all the political shite in Empire of Man is Weber's fault, you should look at which author promotes the Greens as the root of all evil in two other stand-alone books(okay, the space monarchy is Weber's fault, but whoop-dee-do, big surprise there). The Last Centurion was just a contemptible exercise in liberal bashing wankery with an asshole for the lead, and completely ignored the 'show, don't tell' rule for the entire length of the book to boot.
Can you describe it? I haven't heard of the series until now. I actually find the hyper-militarism not a major problem due to the fact that most stories take place in genocidal wars.Eh, maybe so. The area where I live is *very* Republican, conservative enough that her politics come across as pretty middle-of-the-road. It's certainly Republican-slanted, but it's not hyper-militaristic like a lot of his other stuff. (And even the Chinese abortion stuff is partially setup for an in-joke to the Empire of Man series.)
There are plenty of other political systems that encourage long term planning that do not have the flaw of needing a heir or relying on the royal family being competent and getting along. A democracy where the heads of state have no term limits and are only removed when people vote them out (no elections- you need to work referendum style) and life extension treatments are common and historical legacy is important will have the same effect- although obviously with its own drawbacks.I wouldn't say it's his *fault* - given the setup, the monarchy in Empire of Man makes lots of sense. (Really, any society which *relies* on super-long-term planning, as a lot of interstellar ones would, might be well served by a Weber-style monarchy.)
The fact they are the 2nd largest power is though. As a rogue terrorist group like Earth First they would work- as a USSR analogue they would not. At the least, the fact their actions are directly designed to hurt their war making capacity would lead to their destruction in short order.OK, the 'evil environmentalist' Saints are over the top, but even so they don't seem an impossible development in 2000+ years of history from now (and I say this as an environmentalist myself).
Interstellar colony ships aren't free. If people decide to colonize planets and continue exponential growth it will be very easy for them to wreak new worlds. A more realistic movement would be one advocating humanity live solely in space or airless worlds, terraforming those it can in its dream of spreading life to as much of the universe as possible. The fact that any realistic planetary invasion would completely destroy a planets ecosystem would also make them unlikely to be militants.Even the best causes can get twisted - and in an era where easy space travel has made environmental destruction no longer really an issue (because living space is expanding far faster than population) I can see some of the harder-line environmental groups flipping over to extremism to stay in power.
If I recall correctly, they had their own closed network and guarded the input from outside very carefully; they probably recruited modern-day experts for that.Imperial Overlord wrote:Again, unconvincing. The tech backward SS would be more reliant on things like a datanet and massive amounts of crash training just to operate in a modern battlefield, let alone operate futuristic wank weapons on a modern battlefield.
If you give people the option between a comfortable life on another planet or Certain And Inevitable Doom(TM), a lot should apply for the latter. The conspiracy need not be terribly numerous, if only they pick up people in the higher echelons of any given party or organisation.Still not credible. For a few isolated cases, yes, but not a secret conspiracy.
But mostly, it is the SS men themselves who say it, and even when not, there is heavy propaganda working for them.Yeah, but we are told repeatedly, by different characters, that it is the SS who are doing the heavy work. We don't see the rest of Europe's military, but we are told they suck compared to the SS all the fucking time.
Except that there are a lot of parties, organization and other things that would need to be infiltrated. A few greens won't be enough to do everything the Darhel supposedly managed to accomplish. And it only takes one of them mouthing off at a party, or one attack of conscience to spill the beans and undo the entire web of knots. Its the exact same reason we decry the 9/11 conspiracies, there are just too many people who would have to be involved for it to be believable. To be fair, I also find the counter-conspiracy to be equally ludicrous in its longevity and secrecy.Darth Hoth wrote:If you give people the option between a comfortable life on another planet or Certain And Inevitable Doom(TM), a lot should apply for the latter. The conspiracy need not be terribly numerous, if only they pick up people in the higher echelons of any given party or organisation.Imperial Overlord wrote:Still not credible. For a few isolated cases, yes, but not a secret conspiracy.
Commander of the MFS Darwinian Selection Method (sexual) So the Darhel can magically find the right people in the right spot to corrupt and corrupt them, without ever choosing wrong, but the guys helping the SS are the only ones corruption proof? This is one my points, if you recall. There's the SS, weaklings, and dirty race traitors. The Darhel have magic corruption powers that work only to reinforce a hard right world view and they never, ever choose someone who might have second thoughts. Hells, the Darhel don't even have the option of murdering guys they think might be wavering like a human conspiracy would and we all know big conspiracies don't work because you pick just one wrong guy and its out in the open.Darth Hoth wrote:If I recall correctly, they had their own closed network and guarded the input from outside very carefully; they probably recruited modern-day experts for that.Imperial Overlord wrote:Again, unconvincing. The tech backward SS would be more reliant on things like a datanet and massive amounts of crash training just to operate in a modern battlefield, let alone operate futuristic wank weapons on a modern battlefield.
And the Jews, Poles, and French who join them. People who, by all rights, not join the SS if there's any other choice of effective military units to join. But they join the SS against the wishes of their loved ones because only SS he-men can save Europe.
But mostly, it is the SS men themselves who say it, and even when not, there is heavy propaganda working for them.
