TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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Link
Obama Targets Overseas Tax Dodge
Plan Would Crack Down On Individuals, Firms With Money Abroad

By Lori Montgomery and Scott Wilson
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, May 5, 2009

President Obama yesterday announced a major offensive against businesses and wealthy individuals who avoid U.S. taxes by parking cash overseas, a battle he said would be fought with new tax laws, new reporting requirements and an army of 800 new IRS agents.

During an event at the White House, Obama said his proposal would raise $210 billion over the next decade and make good on his campaign pledge to eliminate tax advantages for companies that ship jobs abroad.

"I want to see our companies remain the most competitive in the world. But the way to make sure that happens is not to reward our companies for moving jobs off our shores or transferring profits to overseas tax havens," Obama said, flanked by Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Douglas Shulman.

The nation's largest business groups immediately assailed the proposal, arguing that it would subject them to far higher taxes than their foreign competitors must pay and ultimately endanger U.S. jobs. Key Democrats were cool to the plan, and said Obama's ideas should be considered as part of a broader effort to streamline the nation's complex corporate tax code.

"Further study is needed to assess the impact of this plan on U.S. businesses," Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over U.S. tax law, said in a written statement. "I want to make certain that our tax policies are fair and support the global competitiveness of U.S. businesses."

Yesterday's announcement offered the first details of a tax plan that was sketched out in the $3.4 trillion budget request that Obama sent to lawmakers earlier this year and that Congress approved last week. If the measures do not survive congressional scrutiny, the lost revenue would increase already-elevated deficit projections, unless lawmakers find money elsewhere.

Obama said his plan could serve as "a down payment on the larger tax reform we need to make our tax system simpler and fairer."

The proposal takes aim at what corporate executives consider to be one of the most critical features of the U.S. tax code: permission to indefinitely defer paying U.S. taxes on income earned overseas.

Currently, U.S. companies can avoid paying taxes on foreign profits until they bring the money back home. So a U.S. company doing business in Ireland, for example, must pay the Irish tax of 12.5 percent, like every other company doing business in Ireland. But the U.S. firm would owe an additional 22.5 percent to the U.S. Treasury (the difference between Ireland's tax rate and the 35 percent U.S. tax rate) unless it reinvests the money overseas.

The United States is the last major economic power to tax the profits of locally headquartered companies if that income is earned abroad. Other nations, including most recently Japan and Britain, are moving to a territorial system that taxes only corporate profits earned within their borders.

Instead of following that trend, Obama proposes to move in the opposite direction. He argues that the current system gives tax breaks to U.S. multinationals at the expense of companies that operate solely on American soil. In 2004, the most recent year for which statistics are available, U.S. multinationals paid an effective U.S. tax rate of just 2.3 percent on $700 billion in foreign profits, according to the administration.

"It's a tax code that says you should pay lower taxes if you create a job in Bangalore, India, than if you create one in Buffalo, New York," the president said yesterday.

To level the playing field, Obama would bar firms from taking deductions for expenses that support their overseas investments until they pay U.S. taxes on the profits. He would also crack down on firms that overstate their foreign tax bills. And he would reverse a Clinton-era rule known as "check the box," which permits firms to more easily transfer cash between countries. In practice, Obama officials said, "check the box" has been used to shift income away from higher-tax countries and into tax havens such as Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, allowing firms to reduce their tax bills both at home and abroad.

Those provisions would take effect in 2011 and would raise about $190 billion by the end of the next decade. In return, Obama proposes to make permanent an existing tax credit for companies that spend money on domestic research and development programs, worth about $75 billion over the next decade.

Obama also proposes to crack down on wealthy people who evade taxes through offshore bank accounts, primarily by targeting financial institutions in tax-haven jurisdictions. That plan, which would net another $9 billion over the next decade, appears to have few opponents.

By contrast, more than 200 U.S. companies and trade groups have signed a letter asking congressional leaders to oppose Obama's proposal to limit their ability to defer U.S. tax payments. The letter, signed by Alcoa, General Electric, McDonald's and Microsoft, among others, warned that restricting the deferral rules would make it difficult to compete abroad.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce also denounced Obama's plan. And John Castellani, president of the Business Roundtable, a coalition of the nation's largest firms, called it "the wrong proposal at the wrong time for the wrong reasons" that will "make us less competitive in the international marketplace, where, by last count, 95 percent of the world lives."

Rosanne Altshuler, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, said some of Obama's proposals have merit. But "the big question mark is whether limiting deferral will lead to more jobs in the U.S., and it's not clear to me that this is what will happen." Instead, Altshuler said, the result may be to create a tax advantage for U.S. firms to be acquired by foreign owners, an "unintended consequence" that "would probably be bad."

"There's a big difference between abusive tax avoidance and legitimate tax policy that recognizes the global economy," said Sen. Charles E. Grassley (Iowa), the senior Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. "To the extent the president continues on the road of cracking down on tax abuse, he can count on my support. But if he's using tax shelters as a stalking horse to raise taxes on corporations at the cost of U.S. jobs, he'll lose me."
Another fun tidbit from the Washington Post's Ticker......

Link
Geithner: We're Hiring 800 new IRS Agents

11:37 A.M.: Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner said new rules coming out of the IRS will end "the indefensible tax breaks and loopholes" that allow corporations to "evade the rules the rest of America lives by."

Geithner pointed to tax breaks that incentivize U.S. companies to invest overseas instead of the U.S.

Geithner said the IRS is added 800 new employees whose job will be to "detecting" companies that "unlawfully hide assets and incomes."

Geithner nearly had his Senate confirmation tripped up in January because he failed to pay back taxes. (Other Obama nominees have had their own tax problems.)
So Secretary of the Treasury Turbo Tax Tax Cheat Timmy is gonna get 800 new IRS agents to find companies "unlawfully hide[ing] assets and incomes."

My irony meter just went supercritical and exploded.

Even more fun:; the Dutch just found out that all of Obama's promises have an expiration date:

Link
THE NETHERLANDS -- The Dutch Finance Ministry has reacted with astonishment to the list presented by US President Barack Obama on Monday, which names the Netherlands as one of the world's top three corporate tax havens, together with Bermuda and Ireland.

The Dutch embassy in Washington has contacted the American authorities to express its amazement.

A spokesperson said the Finance Ministry is working with its US colleagues to trace the origin of this misunderstanding, and to get it out of the way. The spokesperson added the Netherlands has "a very average tax level".

President Obama Monday announced a plan to combat tax evasion by wealthy Americans who stable their money in tax havens. The president also wants to prevent American multinationals from parking their profits in countries with the most favourable tax regimes.

As long as they keep their earnings overseas, US companies are legally exempt from paying taxes, which only become due when the money is "repatriated" to the United States. The practice is perfectly legal, but the US government considers it harmful to the American economy.
See now, this is why I consider the Obama administration a bunch of rank incompetent amateurish morons; Ceclilia 12121345 or whatever the hell your username is.

Because of course, we should have a man who is a known tax cheat in charge of the IRS among other things -- that'll go over just as well as appointing someone convicted of mail fraud as Postmaster General of the USPS!
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

Post by Count Chocula »

Shep, you're out of your mind...conspiracy nut...next thing you know, you're going to tell us that Obama tried to strongarm Chrysler bond holders into settling for 30 cents on the dollar so the UAW could get $10 billion and a 55% stake in the company! Then called them names when they wouldn't cave in!

Oh wait.... 8)
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

Post by Samuel »

Hey- criminals are good individuals to appoint to posts to track down other criminals. It will be just like theif hunters, but with less hanging and corruption.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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I'm glad they're doing this. Big Business shouldn't be able to play with its assets to dodge taxes the average American pays.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

Post by KrauserKrauser »

I could easily justify and support this if it wasn't All Stick and No Carrot. Taking a 2x4 and smacking businesses in the middle of a recession/depression/end of the world without also providing benefits to staying in the country smacks of idicotic populism.

His increase in the R&D tax credit is great and all, but it does not address the issue that he is putting a blocker on. If he wants the companies to stay in the country to pay the taxes, he is going to have to give them a better reason than "Do it or we'll take more money from you." How that encourages growth or creates more jobs I can't see.

Obama would have been better served if he had gone with the portion of his tax plan restructuring that didn't piss off our business partners and our businesses. If his restructuring is going to consist of further measures such as this that will not provide any benefit to the companies other than to relocate to the motherland or face huge tax increases, I expect companies to relocate to other countries instead of staying in an environment that is becoming increasingly populist in its policies.

Naive populism for the win!
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:I could easily justify and support this if it wasn't All Stick and No Carrot. Taking a 2x4 and smacking businesses in the middle of a recession/depression/end of the world without also providing benefits to staying in the country smacks of idicotic populism.
I would think that the carrot would be continued business in the US. If they pull up tent stakes and make themselves an international company to lower tax costs, then we can just put a tariff or tax on all their items for being "foreign".

To be frank, I think a lot of big businesses have had way too many carrots without any stick. It's time that they were treated this way.
His increase in the R&D tax credit is great and all, but it does not address the issue that he is putting a blocker on. If he wants the companies to stay in the country to pay the taxes, he is going to have to give them a better reason than "Do it or we'll take more money from you." How that encourages growth or creates more jobs I can't see.
Because they want to do business in the US due to the large consumer population, not counting the costs it would take for them to move all their assets (not financial, but also employment) abroad.
Obama would have been better served if he had gone with the portion of his tax plan restructuring that didn't piss off our business partners and our businesses.
Fuck em. They've been sucking down capital and tax breaks from the Republicans for decades of waste. It's time for them to stop gorging themselves.
If his restructuring is going to consist of further measures such as this that will not provide any benefit to the companies other than to relocate to the motherland or face huge tax increases, I expect companies to relocate to other countries instead of staying in an environment that is becoming increasingly populist in its policies.
One thing to mention is that this isn't really causing them to pay more taxes. This is forcing them to pay the taxes they legally owe the U.S. as a part of doing business, rather then dodging them like a criminal.

So... yeah. If it's a punishment for them to comply with the laws of the country they do business in, boo fucking hoo.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:I could easily justify and support this if it wasn't All Stick and No Carrot. Taking a 2x4 and smacking businesses in the middle of a recession/depression/end of the world without also providing benefits to staying in the country smacks of idicotic populism.

His increase in the R&D tax credit is great and all, but it does not address the issue that he is putting a blocker on. If he wants the companies to stay in the country to pay the taxes, he is going to have to give them a better reason than "Do it or we'll take more money from you." How that encourages growth or creates more jobs I can't see.

Obama would have been better served if he had gone with the portion of his tax plan restructuring that didn't piss off our business partners and our businesses. If his restructuring is going to consist of further measures such as this that will not provide any benefit to the companies other than to relocate to the motherland or face huge tax increases, I expect companies to relocate to other countries instead of staying in an environment that is becoming increasingly populist in its policies.

Naive populism for the win!
You know that Bush tax policies are what's responsible for all these jobs going overseas in the first place, right? Turns out if you give companies incentives to export jobs your local workforce will quickly be out of work? Who knew!
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:I could easily justify and support this if it wasn't All Stick and No Carrot. Taking a 2x4 and smacking businesses in the middle of a recession/depression/end of the world without also providing benefits to staying in the country smacks of idicotic populism.
And is there some REASON why this is a bad idea other than you calling it "idicotic", whatever that means? These businesses are sending their jobs overseas; why should they be rewarded for bringing them back instead of punished for sending them away?
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:I could easily justify and support this if it wasn't All Stick and No Carrot. Taking a 2x4 and smacking businesses in the middle of a recession/depression/end of the world without also providing benefits to staying in the country smacks of idicotic populism.
The government has been handing out carrots for the last 30 years, it hasn't worked. It's time to hit them with a stick until they behave.
His increase in the R&D tax credit is great and all, but it does not address the issue that he is putting a blocker on. If he wants the companies to stay in the country to pay the taxes, he is going to have to give them a better reason than "Do it or we'll take more money from you." How that encourages growth or creates more jobs I can't see.
Oh it's pretty simple, move the jobs to the US or the companies will no longer be conducting business in the US.
Obama would have been better served if he had gone with the portion of his tax plan restructuring that didn't piss off our business partners and our businesses.


In other words, let's screw the middle class taxpayers some more.
If his restructuring is going to consist of further measures such as this that will not provide any benefit to the companies other than to relocate to the motherland or face huge tax increases, I expect companies to relocate to other countries instead of staying in an environment that is becoming increasingly populist in its policies.
It's not a tax increase, it's closing a tax loophole. They can relocate, and some of them will, however they're going to have a hard time competing with local companies and conducting business with the US, and many of them simply won't be viable companies anymore. If you think say, JP Morgan can relocate to Australia and still conduct business on the same scale and as profitably as it does now, or even under the new tax rules, you are seriously delusional.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:I could easily justify and support this if it wasn't All Stick and No Carrot. Taking a 2x4 and smacking businesses in the middle of a recession/depression/end of the world without also providing benefits to staying in the country smacks of idicotic populism.
He's obviously not popular with you....

Do you know how much tax money is lost too over-seas tax dodges? Do you know how long it's been going on?
And you are are aware of all the insentives governments, both at the State/provincal and Federal level give to business to be 'native' to the US (and Canada?) Quite frankly, it's been all cake, and no stick. This is about damn time.

now if only the Canadian + Provincal governments would follow suit.
KrauserKrauser wrote:His increase in the R&D tax credit is great and all, but it does not address the issue that he is putting a blocker on. If he wants the companies to stay in the country to pay the taxes, he is going to have to give them a better reason than "Do it or we'll take more money from you." How that encourages growth or creates more jobs I can't see.

Obama would have been better served if he had gone with the portion of his tax plan restructuring that didn't piss off our business partners and our businesses. If his restructuring is going to consist of further measures such as this that will not provide any benefit to the companies other than to relocate to the motherland or face huge tax increases, I expect companies to relocate to other countries instead of staying in an environment that is becoming increasingly populist in its policies.
How about; Do it, or we'll make it more expensive to be over-seas then it is here (via tariffs). At this point, it's better to let the businesses leave, and then set up new, 'local' ones to take over for them. All those business leaving will create wonderful opprotunities for investment and market expansion, and might jump-start the economy.

And if they stay, they have to put more jobs in locally, having the same effect.

KrauserKrauser wrote:Naive populism for the win!
Yes, that's probably how you voted people like George Bush in, Right?
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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The problem is that KK thinks anything which harms business interests is automatically bad for the country, even if those businesses are systematically sending jobs and investment overseas. It is a classic axiomatic conservative policy attitude which ignores reality.

In reality, if a business is sending its jobs and investment overseas, it is benefiting itself but arguably not the country. So it does not necessarily harm the country to punish that business for doing this. Also, the idea of offering "incentives" for companies to bring jobs back home is stupid because those companies are sending those jobs overseas to places with much lower tax rates and operating costs. There is no practical way to make the cost of doing business in America as low as the cost of doing business in a third world country.

The only decent counter-argument is that this would make American products more expensive for the export market. But that is the classic conundrum of the entire global trade system as it stands right now: manufacturing is migrating to second and third-world countries because of their cheap labour and lax environmental regulations, and people defend this entire sucking-down process by saying that it makes products cheaper. It does, but at what cost? I fully admit that there's no solution to this problem which will make everyone happy, but at least we should acknowledge the problem instead of pretending it isn't a problem.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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Taxes are unpopular but guess what: tax money stays in the country. If corporations send more and more of their money overseas, and incentives fail to bring that money back (which is most definitely the case), then taxes are the only practical way to bring that money back home.

KK's solution is to keep using incentives alone, even though that has been proven not to work. What's that old saying? The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result?

If multi-nationals are paying 2.3% tax on their overseas profit, that's an actual tax incentive to send their jobs away. I suppose the most creative solution might have been to give them a tax credit on overseas taxes, so that the total tax rate they pay is the same, rather than stacking domestic taxes on top of overseas taxes. They might still do that; it's not as if tax codes are set in stone. But it's pretty dishonest to act as if companies would be "penalized" for sending their jobs overseas when the current situation is that companies are effectively penalized for not sending their jobs overseas.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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All I see in the counter arguments agreeing with this policy is blatant protectionism and populism. Killing existing companies and saying that of course new companies that are just as effective are going to spring from thin air in the country with some of the HIGHEST Corporate Tax rates in the country is retarded.

I agree that the jobs moving to overseas is something that Obama should be working to correct, but the approach with this policy is fundamentally flawed. He is making enemies both foreign and domestic, especially when the countries he is going to be negatively impacting are not the Third World shitholes that everyone has mentioned but all of the other countries that have sane Corporate Tax Rates (as mentioned in the OP Ireland and Netherlands).

Maybe if, I dunno, he decided to enact this legislation after lowering the rates to a point that mirrors the countries we have moved to to avoid the high US taxes, this legislation wouldn't be seen as such a blatant kick in the nuts to US businesses and foreign countries as well.

My argument is mainly that the reasons he is doing this are misunderstood. This policy will do nothing to create jobs in the US, it will only serve to destroy the US multinationals and decrease our ability to compete in a global economy, as well as effective raising the level of protectinist policy that other countries will of course retailiate.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:I agree that the jobs moving to overseas is something that Obama should be working to correct, but the approach with this policy is fundamentally flawed. He is making enemies both foreign and domestic, especially when the countries he is going to be negatively impacting are not the Third World shitholes that everyone has mentioned but all of the other countries that have sane Corporate Tax Rates (as mentioned in the OP Ireland and Netherlands).
Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be an insane corporate tax rate?
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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He would also crack down on firms that overstate their foreign tax bills. And he would reverse a Clinton-era rule known as "check the box," which permits firms to more easily transfer cash between countries. In practice, Obama officials said, "check the box" has been used to shift income away from higher-tax countries and into tax havens such as Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, allowing firms to reduce their tax bills both at home and abroad.
This is the big one. Close this loophole and it gets a lot harder for companies to cheat on their taxes by moving all their domestic profits to their offshore subsidiaries and shell companies. They can still do it but it requires much more elaborate money laundering schemes, many of which are illegal and will get them into deep shit assuming the laws are properly enforced and the judges aren't bought off.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:All I see in the counter arguments agreeing with this policy is blatant protectionism and populism.
Yes! Defeat liberal arguments with +5 Labeling Attack Roll!! Ultimate Strike!!!
Killing existing companies and saying that of course new companies that are just as effective are going to spring from thin air in the country with some of the HIGHEST Corporate Tax rates in the country is retarded.
Yes, the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the US.
I agree that the jobs moving to overseas is something that Obama should be working to correct, but the approach with this policy is fundamentally flawed.
And your preferred solution is ...?
Maybe if, I dunno, he decided to enact this legislation after lowering the rates to a point that mirrors the countries we have moved to to avoid the high US taxes, this legislation wouldn't be seen as such a blatant kick in the nuts to US businesses and foreign countries as well.
So he should lower tax rates to match those of third-world countries? Maybe he should also get rid of those pesky environmental and labour and safety regulations, in order to make the US just as lucrative as third-world countries on all levels.
My argument is mainly that the reasons he is doing this are misunderstood. This policy will do nothing to create jobs in the US, it will only serve to destroy the US multinationals and decrease our ability to compete in a global economy, as well as effective raising the level of protectinist policy that other countries will of course retailiate.
You have some basis for this prediction other than "because I say so", I assume? Sooner or later, someone has to address the sucking-down process that accompanies completely free trade. Completely unrestricted trade between blocs of nations which have vastly dissimilar regulations is nothing more than a cover for companies to evade such regulations. Trade should be fair, not free.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Thanas wrote:Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be an insane corporate tax rate?
I'd say 39.3%, 2nd highest in the world behind Japan is high

Whether or not is insanely high, I'll just claim exaggeration to make the point that our taxes are high and this policy to ensure that our rates are the ones that the companies are taxed are highly detrimental to the point of being punitive in a time where the economy is already damaged and companies are hemorraging jobs.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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So he should lower tax rates to match those of third-world countries? Maybe he should also get rid of those pesky environmental and labour and safety regulations, in order to make the US just as lucrative as third-world countries on all levels.
I'll make sure to inform Ireland and the Netherlands that they are now considered third world countries because of their low corporate tax rates.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:All I see in the counter arguments agreeing with this policy is blatant protectionism and populism. Killing existing companies and saying that of course new companies that are just as effective are going to spring from thin air in the country with some of the HIGHEST Corporate Tax rates in the country is retarded.
I see nothing here about killing existing companies from anywhere here, except from your own echo chamber. All I see is that the Government wants BIG BUSINESS to follow the same rules as the common man.
Shock and awe after so many years of Republican blowjobs to Corporate leaders, but still, I don't see it as a death knell for governments.
And... yeah. The US generally does have the highest Tax rate for the US. That's a given. :D
I agree that the jobs moving to overseas is something that Obama should be working to correct, but the approach with this policy is fundamentally flawed.
Except it's not, beyond your opinion. At the very least, it should do as little as our current policy does. At best, it'll improve the situation.
Maybe if, I dunno, he decided to enact this legislation after lowering the rates to a point that mirrors the countries we have moved to to avoid the high US taxes, this legislation wouldn't be seen as such a blatant kick in the nuts to US businesses and foreign countries as well.
Yes, because our tax rates are the highest in US history... no... wait. They were higher in the 50's and 60's. And our economy didn't tank then due to it!
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:
So he should lower tax rates to match those of third-world countries? Maybe he should also get rid of those pesky environmental and labour and safety regulations, in order to make the US just as lucrative as third-world countries on all levels.
I'll make sure to inform Ireland and the Netherlands that they are now considered third world countries because of their low corporate tax rates.
Since when does this law only apply to Ireland the Netherlands? You know perfectly well where these companies are moving their manufacturing jobs, you dishonest little shit. When a CEO says "we need to move these jobs overseas to cut costs and be competitive with XYZ manufacturing", he is probably not talking about moving to Dublin.

In any case, you are completing evading the distinction between fair trade and free trade. Subsidies and tax rates are perfectly fair game when considering what constitutes fair trade, and have been the subject of trade disputes in the past. If a country subsidizes certain industries, that has always been fair game for trade disputes. There is no reason why this should not also apply to corporate tax rates.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:My argument is mainly that the reasons he is doing this are misunderstood. This policy will do nothing to create jobs in the US, it will only serve to destroy the US multinationals and decrease our ability to compete in a global economy, as well as effective raising the level of protectinist policy that other countries will of course retailiate.
Your homework assignment: Pull up the 10-K annual reports of Intel, Archer Daniels Midland, Coca-Cola, JP Morgan, Ford, Exxon-Mobile, and other such multinational companies, and prove that they won't be able to compete in a global environment under the proposed tax policy changes.

Next up, explain how this tax policy change is trade protectionism, and why other countries will retaliate.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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AMT wrote:And... yeah. The US generally does have the highest Tax rate for the US. That's a given. :D
Lord forgive me for making a mistake and typing country when I meant world. That must completely invalidate my argument. Shit, I should go shoot myself in shame.
Except it's not, beyond your opinion. At the very least, it should do as little as our current policy does. At best, it'll improve the situation.
So a policy that fundamentally changes the tax structure that will require companies to completely reorganize their operations globally during a depression is obviously the least harm that could be done in this situation. I've already stated that I understand the need and desire for some action to be taken to get jobs back to the US, but saying that the worst this policy could do is dishonest. This will mean not only closing of international offices which will result in increased global unemployment and increased global unrest, but there is a guarantee that the simple equation of forcing companies to pay drastically increased taxes are going to cause cutbacks and layoffs to survive.

The businesses are going to have to pay the US taxes, the second highest in the world and somehow still survive. They will have their legs knocked out from under them when operating in any country with lower tax rates so we've basically locked ourselves out of those markets, GO US!
Yes, because our tax rates are the highest in US history... no... wait. They were higher in the 50's and 60's. And our economy didn't tank then due to it!
Because the 50's and 60's are a completely similar and in no way different corporate environment to compare. The level of competition from Europe, China, Japan are completely similar on a corporate level between then and now. Obviously we can afford to take a beatstick to our own companies and no other companies will at any point gladly step in to take the slack. Definitely.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Lord forgive me for making a mistake and typing country when I meant world. That must completely invalidate my argument. Shit, I should go shoot myself in shame.
You have plenty of other reasons to be ashamed of your argument, and they don't seem to bother you.
So a policy that fundamentally changes the tax structure ...
To make multi-nationals pay taxes similar to those paid by domestic US companies ... which is outrageous for some reason?
The businesses are going to have to pay the US taxes, the second highest in the world and somehow still survive.
It is truly miraculous that the US has any domestic companies in it. According to you, any company which has to pay domestic US corporate taxes will be destroyed shortly afterwards!
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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The businesses are going to have to pay the US taxes, the second highest in the world and somehow still survive. They will have their legs knocked out from under them when operating in any country with lower tax rates so we've basically locked ourselves out of those markets, GO US!
Because the 50's and 60's are a completely similar and in no way different corporate environment to compare. The level of competition from Europe, China, Japan are completely similar on a corporate level between then and now. Obviously we can afford to take a beatstick to our own companies and no other companies will at any point gladly step in to take the slack. Definitely.
One in 20 humans is American and about a quarter of the world GDP is US (and another quarter is the EU). The US is going to be a major market for the forseeable future and since our main trade partners are other developed nations this won't shoot us in the foot.
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Re: TurboTax Tim strikes back against the Dutch and Irish!

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I wonder if KrauserKrauser understands how taxes work. They only pay the taxes on their profits. There has always been a completely legal way to dispose of profits in tax-free fashion, and that is to spend it, in the form of capital investments, other deductible expenses, or (gasp!) employee salaries.

Of course, that wouldn't make Wall Street investors happy. They want their fat profits and dividends, which is one of the reasons they're usually happy when a company slashes benefits or moves jobs overseas. But it seems to me that what's good for Wall Street is not necessarily good for the country at large.

A company which is making enormous profits is not necessarily as good for an economy as a company which is making lesser profits but which is investing more in its facilities and people. Indeed, the argument traditionally trotted out in favour of lower taxes is that if you let people keep more of their money, they will ... invest it! So why doesn't that work in reverse for corporations? If you reduce the incentive for them to declare fat profit margins, they will tend to invest that money instead.
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