UAE Royal Sheikh is a sadistic fuck

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If these are the "Good Guys" I would hate to meet the bad guys....

You have already heard of them. They live in Afghanistan.

[Big Orange]

You still have to prove several things to me:

- that the Spanish empire was gold rich

While making them very rich and influencial for decades, in the long term didn't the importing of gold and silver from the Americas cause long-term inflation in Spain itself and the rest of Europe?

- Contrast that with England and show me how lack of gold can be directly attributed to the rise of industrialism.

France, Holland, and Britain branched away from just looting/mining minerals to growing and trading in cotton, surgar, coffee, tea, and tobacco, initially on the backs of African slave labour, and later in Britain the processing of cotton gradually progressed from being workshop based to being factory based (with innovations in automated production and steam power).

Finally, Spanish industry was competitive for over two centuries and it still was able to compete with Britain - for example, several experts on shipbuilding went over from Britain to Spain, because the Spanish offered higher wages.

Weren't the Spanish just outsourcing talent by hiring foreign shipwrights, even if they could offer handsome wages (much like the oil rich Arab countries when hiring Western engineers to build their kitsch and ultramodern hotels)? Also Spain was not so enterprising after Catholic fanatics purged or forcibly assimilated the middle class Muslims and Jews, with Jews in particular fleeing to Holland, bringing their enterprising skills with them (but there was a tremendous Spanish naval expansion after that).

[Thanas]

You still have to prove several things to me:

- that the Spanish empire was gold rich

While making them very rich and influencial for decades, in the long term didn't the importing of gold and silver from the Americas cause long-term inflation in Spain itself and the rest of Europe?

Yes, but it is not like they were the only country to be hit hard by that. All in all they enjoyed a remarkable stability up to the 17th century considering the many problems they had to try to solve at the same time.

- Contrast that with England and show me how lack of gold can be directly attributed to the rise of industrialism.

France, Holland, and Britain branched away from just looting/mining minerals to growing and trading in cotton, surgar, coffee, tea, and tobacco, initially on the backs of African slave labour, and later in Britain the processing of cotton gradually progressed from being workshop based to being factory based (with innovations in automated production and steam power).

Yeah, I know that old theory. Now show me the financial figures of the English government and their operating budget.

Finally, Spanish industry was competitive for over two centuries and it still was able to compete with Britain - for example, several experts on shipbuilding went over from Britain to Spain, because the Spanish offered higher wages.

Weren't the Spanish just outsourcing talent by hiring foreign shipwrights, even if they could offer handsome wages (much like the oil rich Arab countries when hiring Western engineers to build their kitsch and ultramodern hotels)?

No, as those people immediately began spanish citizens and formed a new class of skilled people. And it is not like the Spanish were no experts on shipbuilding themselves, having had over four centuries of experiences.

Also Spain was not so enterprising after Catholic fanatics purged or forcibly assimilated the middle class Muslims and Jews, with Jews in particular fleeing to Holland, bringing their enterprising skills with them (but there was a tremendous Spanish naval expansion after that).

Using the same logic, england was not so enterprising after the religious troubles there forced many catholics, jews and monarchists in exile. Coincidentally, guess where many of those went. Sure it hurt, but it is not like spanish enterprise stopped.


BTW, I love that you still try to argue Spain's situation was similar to the UAE. It's not like Spain was exporting only one resource, you know. Especially considering that gold and silver was just one of many products (Sugar, rum, tabacco etc.) the Spanish economy ran on.

[Shroom Man 777]

Spain was a great colonial power that influenced nations, peoples and cultures across the world and centuries later, it's influence is still felt profoundly in places like the Philippines, Latin America and elsewhere. Comparing Spain to a pissant little midget nation like the UAE is ridiculous.

[kinnison]

All the oil-rich Arab (and yes, they are Muslim as well) nations have essentially the same problem as far as the rest of the world is concerned; that they are culturally somewhere between the Dark Ages and the 19th century and have been given astronomical amounts of money for essentially nothing. They didn't work for it (and certainly aren't working for it now); all they did was have the great good luck to be sitting on top of a resource that is extremely important for the civilised parts of the world. The same applies to Iran, which certainly is not Arab.

The combination of that and religious fanaticism led almost inevitably to the innumerable atrocities that have been perpetrated, and continue to be perpetrated, by Muslim extremists - even in areas of the world with a totally different ethnic makeup to the Middle East; the Phillippines and Thailand come to mind. Islam is Dark Ages Arab "culture" turned into a religion.

Obviously, the owners of the site linked below have a rather extreme viewpoint - but all the things they describe happened:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Gil Hamilton]

Wasn't the Spanish Empire rivaled or matched by the Ottoman Empire in the 15th/16th centuries when Spain was at it's strongest?

No.[/quote]
To elaborate, there is a reason a huge section of the Western Hemisphere speaks Spanish to this day. The Spanish Empire for a while stretched from the middle of California to Argentina amongst other places and they were bringing in more income from their colonies than they knew what to do with. The Ottoman Empire was pretty big, but it was never THAT enormous or powerful.

[Alyeska]

That article on Dubai is an eye opener. Though it doesn't surprise me that much. I've heard the stories about the massive construction going on over there. I know how Saudi Arabia works with their culture and bringing in workers to do the hard labor. Dubai is softer on the foreigners, but just as harsh on their work force. A society built on slavery.

I guess those assistant workers who do the technical jobs within the companies in Dubai get the best deal. Even though making only 1/4 the wage of what the Foreigner makes is pathetic, its still a real sum of money. But no respect and horrible treatment by the bosses.

What a depressing place.

[Sarevok]

"What a depressing place."

Made more depressing by the fact that the civilized world is on very good terms with people who are essentially modern day slave masters. I have some personal hatred towards them because one of my uncles endured that life of a foreign worker in Abu Dhabi. But ultimately I feel this is just futile anger because the leaders of the democratic and advanced countries of the world are too busy attending parties hosted by the oil sheiks.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

"What a depressing place."

Made more depressing by the fact that the civilized world is on very good terms with people who are essentially modern day slave masters. I have some personal hatred towards them because one of my uncles endured that life of a foreign worker in Abu Dhabi. But ultimately I feel this is just futile anger because the leaders of the democratic and advanced countries of the world are too busy attending parties hosted by the oil sheiks.

How did he manage to leave the place? My impression from some articles was that it seemed that there was little or no way out when they confiscated their passports.

[Stargate Nerd]

To elaborate, there is a reason a huge section of the Western Hemisphere speaks Spanish to this day. The Spanish Empire for a while stretched from the middle of California to Argentina amongst other places and they were bringing in more income from their colonies than they knew what to do with. The Ottoman Empire was pretty big, but it was never THAT enormous or powerful.

Oh so economically Spain was much more powerful than the Ottoman Empire. Got it.

All the oil-rich Arab (and yes, they are Muslim as well) nations have essentially the same problem as far as the rest of the world is concerned; that they are culturally somewhere between the Dark Ages and the 19th century and have been given astronomical amounts of money for essentially nothing. They didn't work for it (and certainly aren't working for it now); all they did was have the great good luck to be sitting on top of a resource that is extremely important for the civilised parts of the world. The same applies to Iran, which certainly is not Arab.

The combination of that and religious fanaticism led almost inevitably to the innumerable atrocities that have been perpetrated, and continue to be perpetrated, by Muslim extremists - even in areas of the world with a totally different ethnic makeup to the Middle East; the Phillippines and Thailand come to mind. Islam is Dark Ages Arab "culture" turned into a religion.

Obviously, the owners of the site linked below have a rather extreme viewpoint - but all the things they describe happened:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

One could argue that most religions today are a throwback to the Dark Ages. Many things done under the banner of Islam are certainly range from bad to very bad, but it's not like they're exclusive to Islam. One needs to look no further than the Evangelical Christians in the US. God knows what kind of society they'd create if not held back by society at large and the government.

Making conclusions based on colonial remnant regimes and actions by often disenfranchised minorities is not fair, since there have been and are more modern Muslim/Arab countries where fanaticism is less tolerated like Egypt, Syria or Turkey.

[Thanas]

To elaborate, there is a reason a huge section of the Western Hemisphere speaks Spanish to this day. The Spanish Empire for a while stretched from the middle of California to Argentina amongst other places and they were bringing in more income from their colonies than they knew what to do with. The Ottoman Empire was pretty big, but it was never THAT enormous or powerful.

Oh so economically Spain was much more powerful than the Ottoman Empire. Got it.

Not only economically, but also way more powerful in terms of military might and technology.

[Shroom Man 777]

He is under the mistaken impression that it doesn't take any military effort, or technological development, to send fleets of galleons and armies of conquistadores across the nine vectors of the known and unknown world to subjugate entire peoples and nations in never-before seen lands and continents, and then hold said conquests for more than a quarter of a millennium.

The Ottomans, as far as I know, were a regional power. Spain, on the other hand, was a global one.

[kinnison]

Stargate Nerd - As it happens, I agree with you to some extent. Evangelical "Christians" (in quotes because they violate, in word and in deed, every day, the teachings of Christ) are almost as bad as Muslims and would probably be just as bad if they were in charge. Heinlein covered this rather well; "If This Goes On..."

Of the world's great religions, it's all the Abrahamic ones that have this characteristic. Hinduism has very little of it and Buddhism just about none.

On the subject of Spain: Another possible reason for their crumbling was the undue influence of the Inquisition - another instance of religious extremism being undesirable.

[Gil Hamilton]

Oh so economically Spain was much more powerful than the Ottoman Empire. Got it.

No, more that that. The Ottoman Empire was a local major power in their region. Spain was one of the first global powers. The Spanish weren't just putting the absurd amount of loot they were pull off the Viceroyalties and various bits of Europe they controlled into a big pile in the Castile, they were using their trade and influence to build an enormous Navy and military to protect their Empire. The Ottomans never had a military as far reaching. In fact, the Spanish had alot to do with that, since they used their fleet in the Mediterranean effectly to distrupt Turkish moves on Europe and the Spanish kings even raided Ottoman territory in North Africa to hunt down Turkish sponsered pirate groups (some problems never go away).

What got the Spanish in the end was that their Empire accured a vast amount of dumb useless nobles and royalty and thus when some amount of political and military skill was needed to deal with Napolean (like not letting him march the Grand Armee through their country or believing that Napolean was totally not going to double cross them), they dropped the ball. It didn't help that the English showed up, said "We'll help... uh, for purely selfless reasons, of course", and ransacked Spain the moment the French were defeated.

[Darth Wong]

Does one evaluate empires based solely on the amount of land they controlled and for how long? The British Empire stands as one of the truly great empires in all of human history because they ushered in a tremendous amount of change in the way human beings live. The entire Industrial Revolution was their baby. Rail travel, electronic communication, accurate time-keeping: these are foundational elements of modern society: so much so that they are integrated into the way we think.

Were the Spaniards innovators on anywhere near the same scale?

[Samuel]

Stargate Nerd - As it happens, I agree with you to some extent. Evangelical "Christians" (in quotes because they violate, in word and in deed, every day, the teachings of Christ) are almost as bad as Muslims and would probably be just as bad if they were in charge. Heinlein covered this rather well; "If This Goes On..."

Of the world's great religions, it's all the Abrahamic ones that have this characteristic. Hinduism has very little of it and Buddhism just about none.

On the subject of Spain: Another possible reason for their crumbling was the undue influence of the Inquisition - another instance of religious extremism being undesirable.

Trust me, Hinduism and Buddhism has it just as bad as the Abrahamic religions on occasion- it just doesn't make the news as well. In India they have a Hindu nationalist party that is about the same as Christian nationalism. For Buddhism you just had to see Tibet under the theocratic feudal system.

The Inquisition did not help lead to the downfall of Spain- it was concerned with false converts, not witches and so didn't affect the majority of the population. Of course, the people fled to the Ottomans or accross the sea, which was bad for Spain, but not unreasonably so.

[Shroom Man 777]

Does one evaluate empires based solely on the amount of land they controlled and for how long? The British Empire stands as one of the truly great empires in all of human history because they ushered in a tremendous amount of change in the way human beings live. *snip*

Were the Spaniards innovators on anywhere near the same scale?

Well, the Spaniards did colonize the Philippines and turn us from a bunch of face-eating natives into the people you see here today. They also did something similar to the Mayztecans over at Latin America.

While they didn't quite usher forth the modern age as we know it like the British, they did help shape the (third) world around them. Whereas the Ottomans, well, nobody knows what an Ottoman is on this side of the pond.

[Thanas]

Does one evaluate empires based solely on the amount of land they controlled and for how long? The British Empire stands as one of the truly great empires in all of human history because they ushered in a tremendous amount of change in the way human beings live. The entire Industrial Revolution was their baby. Rail travel, electronic communication, accurate time-keeping: these are foundational elements of modern society: so much so that they are integrated into the way we think.

Were the Spaniards innovators on anywhere near the same scale?

I would say yes, but you do not see it that much because so much time has passed that we don't necessarily see the advances or take them for granted.

First, as others have mentioned, the Spanish were the first global empire. That is no small thing to accomplish. Then they of course conquered most of America - without them we wouldn't have the planet that exists today.

Global trade (and organized one to boot) was another of their innovations. Sure, the dutch and the others traded as well, but the Spanish were the first to take advantage of global possessions (silver from the Americas sent to China, chinese good sent to the americas and then to spain). Among other things, they invented the convoy system.

When it comes to innovations, the problem is how to define a "spanish" invention. For example, most of what was the spanish empire was not comprised of native spaniards, but other europeans. This leads to some kind of confusion, of course - is a dutchman living under the rule of the Spanish a Spanish citizen or a duchtman?

Still here are a few of the things I found:
- scientific maps. The Spanish were the first to cartograph large places of the world and practically invented the idea of a scientific map.
- The first steam engine was patented by a spaniard (Jerónimo de Ayanz y Beaumont)
- The development of the paddle wheel is likewise attributed to the spanish
- Several architectural advances, for example examplified in El Artificio de Juanelo Turriano
- shipbuilding, most notably the development of the Galleon.

Still, most of what the spanish did is hardly accessible. We know that the spanish court and the academy were considered centers of learning and advancement during their ages, but today there is little known about them and what is written about it focuses on philosophy like the spanish scholastik instead of the sciences.

[Big Orange]

The Arabs were not exactly stupid either, weren't the Spanish themselves practically colonized by the Arabs in the the 8th century? What the Arabs learned from the Greeks, Persians, and Indians must've invariably been passed on to the Spanish.

[Samuel]

The Arabs were not exactly stupid either, weren't the Spanish themselves practically colonized by the Arabs in the the 8th century? What the Arabs learned from the Greeks, Persians, and Indians must've invariably been passed on to the Spanish.

Why? Spain was at the ass end of the Muslim expansion and away from the main trade routes.

[Thanas]

The Arabs were not exactly stupid either, weren't the Spanish themselves practically colonized by the Arabs in the the 8th century? What the Arabs learned from the Greeks, Persians, and Indians must've invariably been passed on to the Spanish.

Why? Spain was at the ass end of the Muslim expansion and away from the main trade routes.

Not really. It was an extremely profitable country in some regards and a center of culture (for example, Corduba was not only among the largest cities of europe, but also a center of learning and the sciences) and of course there is always Granada.

[The Yosemite Bear]

not to mention the founder of the jesuits had an excellent education curtesy of the Muslim dominance of Spain...

[Androsphinx]

not to mention the founder of the jesuits had an excellent education curtesy of the Muslim dominance of Spain...

I think I know what you are getting at here, in terms of the influence of Muslim literature and culture long after they'd left, but de Loyola was born in 1491, the year before the end of Granada, and almost 150 years since the fall of the last major Muslim city in Spain.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Correct, and the school he was educated in, was originally built by the Muslims.

[Broomstick]

Late development, the sheik is under house arrest

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A member of the royal family of Abu Dhabi who was captured on videotape torturing an Afghan grain dealer has reportedly been detained, a senior U.S. State Department official told CNN Saturday.
The tape emerged in a federal civil lawsuit filed in Texas by Bassam Nabulsi, a U.S. citizen, against Sheikh Issa.

The tape emerged in a federal civil lawsuit filed in Texas by Bassam Nabulsi, a U.S. citizen, against Sheikh Issa.

The official said the government of the United Arab Emirates, which includes Abu Dhabi as one of its seven emirates, told the State Department that Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al Nahyan is under house arrest pending an investigation, but that the United States has not independently confirmed the development.

The videotape emerged last month in a federal civil lawsuit filed in Houston, Texas, by Bassam Nabulsi, a U.S. citizen, against the sheikh. Former business partners, the men had a falling out, in part over the tape. In a statement to CNN, the sheikh's U.S. attorney said Nabulsi is using the videotape to influence the court over a business dispute.

The tape of the heinous torture session is delaying the ratification of a civil nuclear deal between the United Arab Emirates and the United States, senior U.S. officials familiar with the case have said. The senior U.S. officials said the administration has held off on the ratification process because it believes sensitivities over the story can hurt its passage.

On Saturday, Human Rights Watch called the sheikh's reported detention "a significant development" but said the UAE government needs to do more to restore confidence in its judicial system.

"The videotape of this episode shocked the world," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "The report of the arrest was reassuring, but now the government needs to make the details public. Secretive prosecutions will not deter further abuses and torture."

On the tape, Sheikh Issa appears to burn with rage. Apparently believing he was cheated in a business deal, the sheikh was trying to extract a confession from the Afghan grain dealer.

With a private security officer assisting, Sheikh Issa is seen stuffing sand in the Afghan's mouth.

As the grain dealer pleads and whimpers, he is beaten with a nailed board, burned in the genitals with a cigarette lighter, shocked with a cattle prod and led to believe he would be shot. Salt is literally poured on his wounds.

The 45 minutes of torture appears on a nearly three-hour-long videotape shot in late 2004 in the desert outside Abu Dhabi. It was made at the direction of the sheikh himself.

The tape has been viewed by CNN.

After international concerns over the tape mounted in late April, Abu Dhabi's government issued a statement saying it deplored the contents of the video and planned an immediate and comprehensive review of it.

The sheikh, who holds no official government position, is the half-brother of the UAE's ruler, President Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan.

Human Rights Watch sent a April 28 letter to the president imploring him to form "an independent body" to probe both the torture and and the "failure" of the UAE's Interior Ministry "to bring those involved to justice." The group reiterated that call Saturday.

As for the grain dealer, UAE officials say he survived the ordeal, and said the sheikh and the grain dealer settled the matter privately by agreeing not to bring formal charges against each other.

However, Nabulsi's attorney, Anthony Buzbee, said the grain dealer can't be located and it is not known whether he is alive.

I figure the release of the video onto the internet has more do with the sheik being "detained" than actual Abu Dhabi law enforcement. The lesson here, of course, is that if you plan to torture someone don't video tape it!