Star Trek paradox challenge

[Themightytom]

My brother and I were discussing the apparent war of authors that caused some rediculous rehashing in the star trek continuom. First they "ended" the borg threat in Star Trek the next generation by implying that hugh's pattern F'ed up the collective and left it in disarray. Then they brought them back in First Contact and first invented and then killed the borg Queen. Voyager brought them back AGAIN and clarified that the queen could be re- copied at any time. Janeway "killed" the borg by blowing up their transwarp hub and infecting them with some other handwavery. subsequently the books have brought the borg back several times, and killed them several times in esccalating dramatic fashion.

It seems like the writers can't reach any sort of agreement on characteristics, capabilities and weaknesses of major franchise components and it results in a repetitive disjointed story as a whole.

Neither have us have seen the new Star Trek Movie, however we DID see the previews and know that Spock from the future and Romulans are involved.Spoiler

If this movie had been a big "Fuck you!" from JJ Abrahms, he could have had Shinzon in this move. The other character and Shinzon both travel back in time, and Shinzon mucks up kirk's life, changing the past. Young kirk thwarts the plan and Kills Shonzon in the process.

If Shinzon dies in the past, he would die in the future BEFORE killing Data. you can heear the fanheads exploding as the try to concieve of the paradox.

Brent Spiner:

What?? Aw Fuck you I've gained like 130 lbs! I'll be in the fucking gym...

So the challenge if anyone accepts it, pretend you're an author with an axe to grind, write an amusing paradox that corrects two events in Star Trek you didn't like. Bonus points for crossing franchises!

[Junghalli]

So the challenge if anyone accepts it, pretend you're an author with an axe to grind, write an amusing paradox that corrects two events in Star Trek you didn't like. Bonus points for crossing franchises!

At some point write an episode where the events of The Chase are invalidated and it's revealed that the TOS Era Preserver Hypothesis is correct and all the aliens on Star Trek are just transplanted humans/hominids (some of them genetically modified, hence the foreheads, green blood etc.). It just makes vastly more sense than the canon explanation.

Heck, maybe just write a line in some unrelated episode about how all "humanoids" are genetically more closely related than humans and chimps and the Progenitor Hypothesis just can't be true because it's retarded.

Have an episode where it's revealed that the Borg Queen was an individual who was assimilated but managed to somehow make a partial coup of the Borg Collective sometime shortly after the incident with Hugh. This takeover accounts for the pussification of the Borg, and now they've managed to overthrow the Queen and the badass Borg are back.

[Drooling Iguana]

Have an episode where it's revealed that the Borg Queen was an individual who was assimilated but managed to somehow make a partial coup of the Borg Collective sometime shortly after the incident with Hugh. This takeover accounts for the pussification of the Borg, and now they've managed to overthrow the Queen and the badass Borg are back.

Didn't First Contact indicate that the Borg Queen had been around when Picard was assimilated in BoBW?

[Junghalli]

Didn't First Contact indicate that the Borg Queen had been around when Picard was assimilated in BoBW?

She was clearly LYING about it for some twisted or retarded reason of her own!

[Coyote]

Benny Russell ("Benjamin Sisko") wakes up and realizes it was all a dream after all.

[Themightytom]

Have an episode where it's revealed that the Borg Queen was an individual who was assimilated but managed to somehow make a partial coup of the Borg Collective sometime shortly after the incident with Hugh. This takeover accounts for the pussification of the Borg, and now they've managed to overthrow the Queen and the badass Borg are back.

Didn't First Contact indicate that the Borg Queen had been around when Picard was assimilated in BoBW?

yeah that could be retconned into a lie. As far as the borg know, with their linked mind, if history gets altered, thats how it was to them, it could even become a plot point.

Also thats the kind of paradox resulting retcon I was proposing, when the enterprise came back in time to fix the borg threat they changed the history of the original Zephram Cochrane, the timeline of Enterprise etc in a sort of resonant clusterfuck. if you think aboutt it, based on the altered history Zephram never met captain kirk on that plent with the Companion and that de-rails the timeline elading to Captain picard's era.

[Themightytom]

Benny Russell ("Benjamin Sisko") wakes up and realizes it was all a dream after all.

in his miiiiiiiiiiind!!!

[Darth Wong]

Well, what couldn't be retconned once you have time travel with no established rules about how paradoxes are resolved? Basically, the Star Trek writers gave themselves a huge cop-out, and they can use it to do whatever they want. They could go back in time and bash baby 6 month old Kirk in the head, so we end up with Captain Retard Kirk instead. And he would still get the job because of the magic Parallel Timeline / Mirror Universe Rule of Everyone Ending Up In The Same Place Regardless.

[Samuel]

Have Voyager a ship that went through the Bajoran Wormhole but got stuck on the other side by the war. Than Janeway isn't starting out as a moron.

[seanrobertson]

Have an episode where it's revealed that the Borg Queen was an individual who was assimilated but managed to somehow make a partial coup of the Borg Collective sometime shortly after the incident with Hugh. This takeover accounts for the pussification of the Borg, and now they've managed to overthrow the Queen and the badass Borg are back.

Didn't First Contact indicate that the Borg Queen had been around when Picard was assimilated in BoBW?

yeah that could be retconned into a lie.

Actually, it can't. Picard said he remembered the Queen -- that she wanted Picard/Locutus to "give himself willingly to her," which explains why Picard's "humanity" was still able to assert itself in Data's lab (i.e., he wasn't fully assimilated).

Picard also asked how she survived that cube's destruction. She chided him for "thinking in such three-dimensional terms."
(It's really not hard to explain: if the Queen wanted to appear on a Borg ship, it's no stretch to imagine she could have a body quickly cobbled together. Further, that a Queen was destroyed in "BOBW" doesn't mean squat. We've seen Queens die before and return with identical-looking faces ("Dark Frontier," "Unimatrix Zero," "Endgame").)

[Themightytom]

Well, what couldn't be retconned once you have time travel with no established rules about how paradoxes are resolved? Basically, the Star Trek writers gave themselves a huge cop-out, and they can use it to do whatever they want. They could go back in time and bash baby 6 month old Kirk in the head, so we end up with Captain Retard Kirk instead. And he would still get the job because of the magic Parallel Timeline / Mirror Universe Rule of Everyone Ending Up In The Same Place Regardless.

Stargate opened that can of worms up quite nicely too, every time they time travel they "Could" be simply creating an alternate timeline. if you apply that concept to the TNG episode "yesterday's enterprise" you'd have

OT Enterprise C destroyed in narendra III incident klingons impressed
Timeline 2 Enterprise C escapes to future, Klingons pissed WAR!
Timeline 3 Enterprise C escapes to future but is sent back, dies, klingons impressed, no war, AU Yar's love baby supports Klingon Civil war.

notice that a component of Timeline 3 is dependent on Timeline 3, If Yar's double had died than the klingon civil war might have taken a radically different shape without Sela there to scheme and undermine.

Have Voyager a ship that went through the Bajoran Wormhole but got stuck on the other side by the war. Than Janeway isn't starting out as a moron.

.

Well you are a writer with an axe to grind, but

write an amusing paradox that corrects two events in Star Trek you didn't like. Bonus points for crossing franchises!

was the second part. you can't really pull off what you have described because you have to manipulate in universe, not rewrite the base universe. The bajoran wormhole elads to the gamma quadrant, where the jem' hadar rule. how about

"During the year of hell, Chakotay blasts the wreckage of the Caretaker array, removing it from existence. In an AU Voyager completes its mission in the badlands., captures Chakotay and is assigned to explore the Gamma Quadrant. Voyager foilds the kidnapping of Dr Bashir, the Founders never infiltrate DS9 and the wormhole is collapsed, trapping Voyager in the gamma Quadrant with a lot of pissed off Jem Hadar. Ben Sisko never completes his magic faith journey Odo never goes home etc etc.

you create an AU while truncating the old timeline.

[Themightytom]

yeah that could be retconned into a lie.

Actually, it can't. Picard said he remembered the Queen -- that she wanted Picard/Locutus to "give himself willingly to her," which explains why Picard's "humanity" was still able to assert itself in Data's lab (i.e., he wasn't fully assimilated).

Picard also asked how she survived that cube's destruction. She chided him for "thinking in such three-dimensional terms."
(It's really not hard to explain: if the Queen wanted to appear on a Borg ship, it's no stretch to imagine she could have a body quickly cobbled together. Further, that a Queen was destroyed in "BOBW" doesn't mean squat. We've seen Queens die before and return with identical-looking faces ("Dark Frontier," "Unimatrix Zero," "Endgame").)[/quote]

The queen could be discovered implanting memories in Picard to manipualte him. We already know he can still hear the Borg.

You ahve an interesting perception of "before" as, prior to First contact, which came AFTER BOBW we had never seen or heard of a queen. A more accurate statement would be "We have seen queens die and come back SINCE ST FC. None of that proves she was there sicne the beginning beyond purely what she tells people,

Junghalli's concept is still sound, she could usurp the collective and alter their memory.

[seanrobertson]

The queen could be discovered implanting memories in Picard to manipualte him. We already know he can still hear the Borg.

Hearing the Collective's voice and being receptive to artificial memories are two very different things.

When has the Queen ever planted a false memory in a former Borg's mind, especially when it'd be to her advantage?

Never -- not even with Seven, whom she wanted very badly to return to the Borg.

Thus, your explanation has extraneous terms. The most elegant explanation is that a Queen was aboard the cube in "BoBW," just as Picard remembered. There's no reason whatsoever to retcon the Queen's prescence as a "lie."

You ahve an interesting perception of "before" as, prior to First contact, which came AFTER BOBW we had never seen or heard of a queen. A more accurate statement would be "We have seen queens die and come back SINCE ST FC.

Sure, but the point in contention is this:

None of that proves she was there sicne the beginning beyond purely what she tells people

... which is false. Seven's parents, the Hansens, knew of the Queen's existence by 2357.

"Best of Both Worlds" took place around 2366-2367; and "First Contact," 2372 IIRC.

Junghalli's concept is still sound, she could usurp the collective and alter their memory.

Again, the Queen's never demonstrated the ability to alter any Borg's memories. Simply because she can "hear" Picard or Seven's thoughts in no way, shape or form means she controls their thoughts on any level.

[seanrobertson]

Just by the by ...

I'm known as a nice guy in these parts, but I'd very much like a workable counter-explanation or clearly-stated concession.

I say so because some folks have taken advantage of my good nature and, even when pinned, I never got my "props."

I'm still the friendly, big-hearted Sean all know and, I hope, love Nonetheless, I'm no longer pulling any punches when it comes to debating here. I've always offered a concession when I've been good and whipped; from here on, I fully expect the same from my "opponents," no matter how good-natured our exchanges may be.

Thank you,
-Sean

[FaxModem1]

Due to the Dominion war and the fact that Starfleet needs every body they can get, they make a deal with the Maquis. They get clemency and the rights to the DMZ if and when the war is over, to do with as they wish. Seeing as how the Maquis were fighting a proxy war with the Cardassians and winning and the Federation knew a war was coming anyway, it only seems like a good idea. Also, I'm a huge fan of the Maquis. This way, the Federation doesn't look like the massive dicks they were when treating their former citizens. It also would create a nice potential for more Eddington and Sisko stories, where even though Eddington betrayed Sisko, they occasionally have to work together for the greater good, whether Sisko likes it or not.

I'd also like to have seen, since Voyager took SO many huge shortcuts during its run, for them starting to run into the Dominion during the war and having to deal with it. True, both writing staffs would have to deal with working together, but hey, they were doing that to an extent anyway.

[Darth Wong]

The Maquis were created as a plot point in a message-driven Star Trek episode, and then the writers clumsily tried to make real characters out of them. They were a joke and their whole storyline was stupid.

I especially liked the part where we discover that both Cardassian and Maquis settlers had access to the Holy Grail of bioweapons: a weapon which makes an entire planet uninhabitable to the enemy, but perfectly habitable to yourself. And it was a huge plot point when they deployed these weapons on each others' planets just once, and then were forced to change places as a result. You would think they would have simply deployed these bioweapons on their own colonies and then contacted the other side to say "OK, our colonies are uninhabitable to you now so there's no point trying to take over; let's put all of this behind us".

[FaxModem1]

Unfortunately, the Cardassians never had the 'holy grail weapons'. Only the Maquis, and then the Defiant. The weapons used against the Cardassian colonies and the Maquis colonies were done by Eddington and Sisko respectively. This still leaves the option of using the 'biogenic' weapons on their own colonies, but I think Eddington wanted the whole DMZ for themselves.

[Junghalli]

Hearing the Collective's voice and being receptive to artificial memories are two very different things.

I'd point out here that the scenario we're discussing is what we might do if we were a Trek scriptwriter and wanted to retroactively invalidate some part of the franchise. Yes, analyzing the canon from the point of view of a disinterested neutral observer it's a huge leap in logic to suggest the Queen could implant false memories in Picard, but I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a disinterested neutral observer. I'm coming at this from the perspective of somebody who wants to find a way to retroactively invalidate a canon concept. As such, I don't see why I should be bound to follow the most plausible explanation. As long as the possibility of the Queen implanting false memories in Picard can be reconciled with other canon in a reasonably convincing way, and I can find a reason for her to do it that doesn't sound stupid*, I don't see what's stopping me from simply writing it into existence.

*I'd also point out these criteria are considerably more rigorous than what some Trek writers seem to have actually followed.

When has the Queen ever planted a false memory in a former Borg's mind, especially when it'd be to her advantage?

Never -- not even with Seven, whom she wanted very badly to return to the Borg.

<snip>

... which is false. Seven's parents, the Hansens, knew of the Queen's existence by 2357.

"Best of Both Worlds" took place around 2366-2367; and "First Contact," 2372 IIRC.

Now this is a bigger problem. The best way I can think of to reconcile it with what I want it to suggest that there are multiple factions of Borg. The Borg we saw in TNG could be one faction, while the Borg we saw in FC and Voyager are a different faction. Perhaps the Borg in Q Who that were supposed to only be interested in technology could be a third faction. The Queen's was "talking" to Locutus by hacking into the collective consciousness of the rival faction, or maybe Locutus was even part of some kind of deal between the two.

[seanrobertson]

I'd point out here that the scenario we're discussing is what we might do if we were a Trek scriptwriter and wanted to retroactively invalidate some part of the franchise.

Indeed.

My primary grievance with Tom's post was the assumption that the Queen idea didn't pre-date "FC."

Yes, analyzing the canon from the point of view of a disinterested neutral observer it's a huge leap in logic to suggest the Queen could implant false memories in Picard, but I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a disinterested neutral observer. I'm coming at this from the perspective of somebody who wants to find a way to retroactively invalidate a canon concept. As such, I don't see why I should be bound to follow the most plausible explanation. As long as the possibility of the Queen implanting false memories in Picard can be reconciled with other canon in a reasonably convincing way, and I can find a reason for her to do it that doesn't sound stupid*, I don't see what's stopping me from simply writing it into existence.

*I'd also point out these criteria are considerably more rigorous than what some Trek writers seem to have actually followed.

I gotcha.

I would, however, emphasize the need to keep things as simple as possible, even in our theoretical "rewrite canon" exercise.

To that end, from a story-telling point-of-view, it seems simpler -- at least to me -- to run with something closer to the existing canon; i.e., that the Queen(s) can appear on Borg ships whenever the Collective so deems fit. The idea of her implanting memories to mislead former drones would seem to require a measure of exposition (or other means of explanation) than would benefit a story's flow IMO.

Now this is a bigger problem. The best way I can think of to reconcile it with what I want it to suggest that there are multiple factions of Borg. The Borg we saw in TNG could be one faction, while the Borg we saw in FC and Voyager are a different faction. Perhaps the Borg in Q Who that were supposed to only be interested in technology could be a third faction. The Queen's was "talking" to Locutus by hacking into the collective consciousness of the rival faction, or maybe Locutus was even part of some kind of deal between the two.

Before I respond, let me be sure we're on the same page: this three-Borg faction idea's for your reinvented Borg, not a strict interpretation of existing canon -- correct?

[Junghalli]

Before I respond, let me be sure we're on the same page: this three-Borg faction idea's for your reinvented Borg, not a strict interpretation of existing canon -- correct?

That is correct.

[Themightytom]

My primary grievance with Tom's post was the assumption that the Queen idea didn't pre-date "FC."

First, sorry for the delay, I was on vacation. Your most effective point was that Annika's parents were aware of the queen's existence. How do we know this? Why we saw it when Anika "remembered..."
...
If a plot reveals the Queen has been fucking with the Borg's memory having usurped the collective you haven't presented a contradiction. you are also confusing poposed tendencies with established ones, no we haven't seen the Queen implant memories, but for the purpose of retconning interpretation, that would bne the concept introduced.

So you have used in-universe evidence to address out-of-universe circumstances.
The Queen was not part of the original depiction of the borg in the TNG TV series.

You are actually citing examples retcons. the purpose of this execise is to propose retcons that retcon retcons. Again bonus points for crossing series, and I suppose, as no one has managed to come up with one so far, the paradox is now a bonus as well.

I would, however, emphasize the need to keep things as simple as possible, even in our theoretical "rewrite canon" exercise. [/code]

Agreed, I was trying to facilitate Junghalli's proposed plot with the introduction of the Queen as a liar.

To that end, from a story-telling point-of-view, it seems simpler -- at least to me -- to run with something closer to the existing canon; i.e., that the Queen(s) can appear on Borg ships whenever the Collective so deems fit. The idea of her implanting memories to mislead former drones would seem to require a measure of exposition (or other means of explanation) than would benefit a story's flow IMO.

I assume you mean would NOT benefit a stroy's flow. The idea is to write a stroy around a retcon. The retcon and its exposition IS the story.

Before I respond, let me be sure we're on the same page: this three-Borg faction idea's for your reinvented Borg, not a strict interpretation of existing canon -- correct?

yes.

[seanrobertson]

Before I respond, let me be sure we're on the same page: this three-Borg faction idea's for your reinvented Borg, not a strict interpretation of existing canon -- correct?

That is correct.

Cool, gotcha. A word on that momentarily

[seanrobertson]

My primary grievance with Tom's post was the assumption that the Queen idea didn't pre-date "FC."

First, sorry for the delay, I was on vacation.

No worries there My new girlfriend has kept me outta town and away from the Internet for the most part.

Your most effective point was that Annika's parents were aware of the queen's existence. How do we know this? Why we saw it when Anika "remembered..."

Thanks for the acknowledgment, but methinks you misremember (no pun intended) what we saw in "Dark Frontier."

The tactical drone, the drone that worked near the Queen at "Unimatrix One," the bio-dampener thingie Magnus used to hide aboard cubes -- all of that information was contained in the Hansen's starlogs Seven (and later, Janeway) reviewed.

If a plot reveals the Queen has been fucking with the Borg's memory having usurped the collective you haven't presented a contradiction. you are also confusing poposed tendencies with established ones, no we haven't seen the Queen implant memories, but for the purpose of retconning interpretation, that would bne the concept introduced.

I understand you better now. I misunderstood your intentions.

So you have used in-universe evidence to address out-of-universe circumstances.
The Queen was not part of the original depiction of the borg in the TNG TV series.

You are actually citing examples retcons. the purpose of this execise is to propose retcons that retcon retcons. Again bonus points for crossing series, and I suppose, as no one has managed to come up with one so far, the paradox is now a bonus as well.

You've lost me with this statement, I'm afraid

To that end, from a story-telling point-of-view, it seems simpler -- at least to me -- to run with something closer to the existing canon; i.e., that the Queen(s) can appear on Borg ships whenever the Collective so deems fit. The idea of her implanting memories to mislead former drones would seem to require a measure of exposition (or other means of explanation) than would benefit a story's flow IMO.

I assume you mean would NOT benefit a stroy's flow.

Correct. I was saying that misleading drones with false memories would require explanations that could disrupt the story's flow. (I meant to say " ... require too great a measure of exposition"; in my haste, I left that out. Sorry for the confusion.)

Point being, I think if we're going to rewrite canon, we should replace the existing lot with a superior, or at least smoother-reading, story. The less technical jargon and/or continuity violations to stick in our craws, the better.

I maintain that, in terms of suspending disbelief and keeping the viewer immersed in a story, unseen Queens manifesting themselves aboard ill-fated Borg ships is better than the "retcon" alternative you propose; i.e., that the Queen in "First Contact" not only lied about her role in "BOBW," her interest in Locutus as a counterpart, etc., but she went so far as to delude Picard into believing her story via false memory implantation.

Look at it this way, Tom ... say you're rewriting "First Contact." Picard encounters the Queen near the end of the film. She "bullshits" about being familiar with Locutus; subsequently, she manipulates him into thinking they'd met before.

That's all well and good, but in this new "FC," how are you going to reveal that the Queen is lying? It's not clear prima facie; it's something that (as I previously stated) will require explanation.

Will Picard explain how the Queen fucked with his thoughts -- implanting these false memories? How will he realize that? That revelation will require some kind of explanation itself. And most important of all, when might this take place? After the Queen's killed?

I think you see what I'm going on about. This "retcon" could easily result in a far-too verbose explanation of the Queen's "fake memory powerz" that detracts from the drama at-hand. Even if you're able to devise some situation in which Picard describes the "fake memories" succinctly, as I said, how will all this unfold in a manner that improves on the original "FC"?

The idea is to write a stroy around a retcon. The retcon and its exposition IS the story.

Certainly, but don't we want this retcon to improve upon existing canon?

Before I respond, let me be sure we're on the same page: this three-Borg faction idea's for your reinvented Borg, not a strict interpretation of existing canon -- correct?

yes.

I think that's a fun idea, and you could actually interpret parts of canon to support it. For example, in "Dragon's Teeth," Seven says the Collective's records from 900 years ago were "fragmentary." In our retconned Trek, maybe those fragmented records are a result of a branch of the Borg splintering off into its own Collective.

[Themightytom]

Thanks for the acknowledgment, but methinks you misremember (no pun intended) what we saw in "Dark Frontier."

The tactical drone, the drone that worked near the Queen at "Unimatrix One," the bio-dampener thingie Magnus used to hide aboard cubes -- all of that information was contained in the Hansen's starlogs Seven (and later, Janeway) reviewed.

I DID misremember, I borrowed my little brothers Voyager DVD to check (he uses them as white noise when he's going to sleep) so that would be a glaring loophole. I propose time travel. Its Solves Everything.

You've lost me with this statement, I'm afraid

In real life the Queen hadn't been concieved of in best of both worlds, she represents a retcon to the idea that the borg are decentralized.

Point being, I think if we're going to rewrite canon, we should replace the existing lot with a superior, or at least smoother-reading, story. The less technical jargon and/or continuity violations to stick in our craws, the better.

in principle yes, but there is something elegant about itentionally designing a head exploding paradox, thats what the exercise was about.

I think you see what I'm going on about. This "retcon" could easily result in a far-too verbose explanation of the Queen's "fake memory powerz" that detracts from the drama at-hand. Even if you're able to devise some situation in which Picard describes the "fake memories" succinctly, as I said, how will all this unfold in a manner that improves on the original "FC"?

The goal is not a rewrite, its to create a reinterpretation based on a new episode. First contact did not rewrite The best off both Worlds, but it altered the context of what we saw retoactively, isntead of Locutus being a voice to facilitate assimiliation of the federation suddenly he's more like a consort.

I definitely see what you are going on about, but I think its because youa re still looking at this as a strict rewrite. in the previous scenario we talked about a story that introduces different factions off the borg and frames the queen in context of a recent usurper rather than the legitimate head of the borg who was there since the beginning. A brief scene in which they find Hugh for example and he says "My factionw as assimilated by the factoion the queen controlled, she rewrote their memories so they forgot they were ever individuals" could easily carry the connotation that she has the memory rewrite ability which exposes the possibility she wasn't "There from the beginning" and may not even have been on the cube. Hugh could even look at picard and say "She has gotten to you hasn't she, you think she's been here all along!"

Certainly, but don't we want this retcon to improve upon existing canon?

Eh you could but what an "Improvement" is seems to have wildly diffferent interpretations. For First Contact the queen might have seemed an improvement because it gives the story a focus and a Villian, but not everyone agrees that introducing the queen was an improvement. The invitation was to pretend youw ere a disgruntled writer.

I think that's a fun idea, and you could actually interpret parts of canon to support it. For example, in "Dragon's Teeth," Seven says the Collective's records from 900 years ago were "fragmentary." In our retconned Trek, maybe those fragmented records are a result of a branch of the Borg splintering off into its own Collective.

yeah based on your ability to recollect details, you'd be really good at this, you are identifying potential story gaps, you just have to start exploiting them for your own purposes.

[seanrobertson]

in principle yes, but there is something elegant about itentionally designing a head exploding paradox, thats what the exercise was about.

*slaps forehead*

I understand what you're after now. Damn! I totally misread your OP.

D'oH! Sorry about that