Revenge of the Sith question

[Jade Falcon]

I recently rewatched the prequel trilogy and there's still one thing I'm wondering about.

During the fight between Mace Windu and Palpatine, when Windu is using his sabre to absorb the force lightning we see Palpatine visibly age.

Now, is this an effect of some of his lightning being reflected back on him, is it the sheer expendeture of dark side energy draining him, or is this how Palpatine looked all along but was using the dark side to hide his 'foul' appearance.

[Drooling Iguana]

There were debates on this forum for months after the movie was released about this topic. I don't recall a satisfactory answer ever being reached.

[Jade Falcon]

Ah, okay, sorry then. I wasn't really that active then, if that's the case there's not much sense reviving a debate that will go nowhere.

[Anguirus]

There is some EU stuff IIRC about Palpatine using "Sith Alchemy" to hide the ravages of the dark side, and it gets undone by the lightning. It's weird, but better than the prospect of his face melting symmetrically.

[Ghost Rider]

The novel goes into detail that the face of Palpatine was just a disguise and Sidious' face was always as such, giving more credence to what and why the change.

So unless someone can come up with a movie reason that contradicts the novel and said in the movie, there it stands.

[VT-16]

There's two visual sources (JvS:TEGTTF and Sithisis from Visionaries) showing Palpatine with his wrinkled, yellow-eyed face before ROTS. In the former picture, it's as far back as Maul's early years in training.

[Solauren]

I always thought the line in ROTS about 'the face of Sidious' meant the obvious face of a darksider/someone damaged by it.

I think Sidious let his face get that damaged, as a way of goading Anakin into acting.

Considering we see Sidious in hologram form and the visible part of his face is fine prior to the Windu duel, it would seem, to me, he was speaking metaphorically.

[Elfdart]

I recently rewatched the prequel trilogy and there's still one thing I'm wondering about.

During the fight between Mace Windu and Palpatine, when Windu is using his sabre to absorb the force lightning we see Palpatine visibly age.

Now, is this an effect of some of his lightning being reflected back on him, is it the sheer expendeture of dark side energy draining him, or is this how Palpatine looked all along but was using the dark side to hide his 'foul' appearance.

I always thought the physical deformities (Sidious' wrinkles, the yellow eyes of Maul and Vader) were a result of tapping more and more into the dark side of the Force for powers Sidious himself described as "unnatural". How about Palpatine used up all the Force he could tap into to keep Mace from skewering him, and that the shriveled-up look was a kind of spiritual dehydration as he spent every last "drop" he had to save his own life?

Every other explanation given requires overanalysis, wank or outright stupidity (Force mascara? )

[VT-16]

outright stupidity (Force mascara? )

Yeah, given I just listed two sources, one of which showing him transform his face from Sidious to Palpatine, it's that one.

[Darth Hoth]

TEGTTF is written in an in-universe style, as a document compiled by Tionne Solusar from various more or less reliable sources. That one could be chalked up to an in-universe artist's misconception. Sithisis cannot, however, be so explained away.

Personally, I have always favoured the "alchemical mask" theory.

[VT-16]

Sith Alchemy, you mean?

[Darth Hoth]

Yeah. It is probably a sign of me requiring medical attention, but the Tales of the Jedi stories remain some of my favourite EU.

Anyway, we know from the filmic canon that Palpatine's appearance in Return of the Jedi was decidedly less decayed than in Revenge of the Sith, therefore it would be reasonable to suppose that he has some means of controlling it even without EU mentions of the same.

[Tiriol]

As others have already said, a "mask", if you will, created by Sith alchemy, is the most probable cause. Palpatine's own musings in RotS novelization support this theory (although it doesn't say it outright, per se) and Sithisis comic story actually shows Palpatine use some Sith sorcery/alchemy to turn from Lord Sidious into Chancellor Palpatine (facially speaking) - however, I'm not sure whether Sithisis and other Visionaries comics are strictly canon. BUT, in addition to that, we have a Wizards of the Coast article explaining Palpatine's facial damage as his Sith lightning peeling away the "Force mask" he had created through the use of Sith alchemy. As this explanation doesn't require any game mechanics, it is as valid explanation as any and meshes nicely with the Sithisis story and, of course, with RotS novelization's almost off-hand remark about Palpatine's face's condition.

Some other sources have also noted that Palpatine did suffer some physical corruption as a result of him using the dark side of the Force; Palpatine himself noted as much in Dark Empire (he noted that mere flesh couldn't contain his vast dark power). This doesn't refute the above theory, and actually supports it (and explains WHY Palpatine got his "Sidious" face in the first place). Palpatine might have employed some dark side healing technique, which are known to exist (as per Shadows of the Empire), to restore some of the disfiguration done to his face, but apparently such techniques are not entirely effective. And while Palpatine never suffered as much physical damage and corruption because of the dark side as Onderonian King Ommin (in Tales of the Jedi; the said monarch required the use of an exoskeleton, if I remember correctly, because his physical integrity was so badly ravaged by his studies of Sith sorcery), it has been noted that he did suffer somewhat.

[Darth Hoth]

however, I'm not sure whether Sithisis and other Visionaries comics are strictly canon.

Visionaries is standard C-canon, thus they are canon unless they contradict the films or other sources. I personally hate it (especially the stupid "Imperial Recruitment" posters), but that is so.

Some other sources have also noted that Palpatine did suffer some physical corruption as a result of him using the dark side of the Force; Palpatine himself noted as much in Dark Empire (he noted that mere flesh couldn't contain his vast dark power). This doesn't refute the above theory, and actually supports it (and explains WHY Palpatine got his "Sidious" face in the first place). Palpatine might have employed some dark side healing technique, which are known to exist (as per Shadows of the Empire), to restore some of the disfiguration done to his face, but apparently such techniques are not entirely effective. And while Palpatine never suffered as much physical damage and corruption because of the dark side as Onderonian King Ommin (in Tales of the Jedi; the said monarch required the use of an exoskeleton, if I remember correctly, because his physical integrity was so badly ravaged by his studies of Sith sorcery), it has been noted that he did suffer somewhat.

Palpatine literally had to switch bodies because he burned them up and destroyed them, as per the dialogue in the original Dark Empire, so one can safely say that he suffered worse than Ommin (who was merely immobilised). Which makes sense, given their difference in power levels.

[Captain Seafort]

Palpatine literally had to switch bodies because he burned them up and destroyed them, as per the dialogue in the original Dark Empire, so one can safely say that he suffered worse than Ommin (who was merely immobilised). Which makes sense, given their difference in power levels.

Not, however, until after his little trip down the Death Star's power shaft, which suggests that either he was drawing far more strongly on the dark side while on Byss than previously, or his clones were somewhat less robust than his original body for some reason.

[Darth Hoth]

So when Palpatine said to Luke that it was not the first time he had died, nor would it be the last, he was lying? And apparently delusional, since the DESB has a passage to the same effect written from his POV?

His death he had planned for, just as he had planned for every other contingency. Still, this last time had been quite different from all the others. Previously, the clones had been only meters away and the passing voluntary, in the comfort of his chambers. Nothing like the time of betrayal by his Dark servant. This time was so abrupt and unexpected... so unpleasant that it felt as if, perhaps, a part of his being had been left in space over Endor.

Try again.

[Connor MacLeod]

I dislike the mask idea because quite simply there's no reason for him to be wearing a disguise if he were in his Darth Sidious makeup.. and every time we saw him there prior ot ROTS he didn't look like Pruneface the Evil Hobgoblin. Also, you'd think we'd see some evidence of the mask burning away (unless we're invoking "magic mask" as an excuse, which is pretty damn stupid - why not just say "the magic death lightning changed him magically" and remove a step?)

[Tiriol]

So when Palpatine said to Luke that it was not the first time he had died, nor would it be the last, he was lying? And apparently delusional, since the DESB has a passage to the same effect written from his POV?

His death he had planned for, just as he had planned for every other contingency. Still, this last time had been quite different from all the others. Previously, the clones had been only meters away and the passing voluntary, in the comfort of his chambers. Nothing like the time of betrayal by his Dark servant. This time was so abrupt and unexpected... so unpleasant that it felt as if, perhaps, a part of his being had been left in space over Endor.

Try again.

There does exist a Leeland Chee quote that states that Palpatine was, indeed lying. The quote has been brought up once or twice in the discussions concerning Palpatine's supposed immortality.

[Darth Hoth]

You mean this?

What always stuck in the back of my mind about DE was just how old is Palpatine if he's been going from one cloned body to another? He said the process is painful so you know he did it at least one other time. Is that his second body in TPM?
None of the versions of Palpatine that you see in the films is a clone. The original Palpatine had a normal lifespan. He went through the clone transfer process between Eps VI and DE. (I concede that some "retconning" might need to be considered with the exact wording of the DE text.)

So does Chee's message board post override multiple published sources, including one not based on dialogue (requiring the explanation that Palpatine was not only lying but completely delusional) and (if I recall correctly) a third-person out-of-universe one (The Dark Side Sourcebook)? Especially when there is no continuity contradiction in him having already died and been "reborn"? Till there is a published source to corroborate it, I would rather support the canon.

[Darth Yoshi]

I don't see why it would. It would be like Lucas saying that Tatooine had three suns and a green sky. He can say it all he wants, but the actual material still overrides him.

[Darksider]

Didn't Palpatine have to keep switching bodies more frequently during DE because someone paid his physician to fuck them up?

[JME2]

Didn't Palpatine have to keep switching bodies more frequently during DE because someone paid his physician to fuck them up?

Yes, Carnor Jax bribed the clonemaster to sabotage the existing clones and taint the source genetic material.

[Connor MacLeod]

Didn't Palpatine have to keep switching bodies more frequently during DE because someone paid his physician to fuck them up?

Yes, Carnor Jax bribed the clonemaster to sabotage the existing clones and taint the source genetic material.

But as I remember the Emperor didnt know this. It would have kept him switching bodies more frequently, but IIRC he was doing that anyhow because I think he was enduring the ill effects of accelerated Force usage by the time he figured it out (It was what drove him to figure out how ot do this IIRC all the early background material on his reincarnation process correctly.)

I'm pretty sure we dont really know the actual lifespan of the clone bodies he used, and there probably are enough factors to fudge that anyhow, or how many bodies he had, so there's a bit of wiggle room as far as interpretation goes anyhow.

[JME2]

Didn't Palpatine have to keep switching bodies more frequently during DE because someone paid his physician to fuck them up?

Yes, Carnor Jax bribed the clonemaster to sabotage the existing clones and taint the source genetic material.

But as I remember the Emperor didnt know this. It would have kept him switching bodies more frequently, but IIRC he was doing that anyhow because I think he was enduring the ill effects of accelerated Force usage by the time he figured it out (It was what drove him to figure out how ot do this IIRC all the early background material on his reincarnation process correctly.)

I'm pretty sure we dont really know the actual lifespan of the clone bodies he used, and there probably are enough factors to fudge that anyhow, or how many bodies he had, so there's a bit of wiggle room as far as interpretation goes anyhow.

I believe you're correct; forgive me, for it's been a while since I've read Empire's End/Crimson Empire.

[Connor MacLeod]

No biggie. It only stands out because it ws (out of universe) rather obviously tacked on as a plot point. That happens alot in the EU