What Follows ST XI? (spoilers)

[Stofsk]

The Cage or The Menagerie?

The Cage. The Menagerie was essentially recycled footage with a plot that felt way too forced (not saying it was bad or anything, but it was obvious that the writers were struggling to make it work).

Incidentally, as far as Spock's ability to predict the future is concerned, since this is an alternate timeline any one of those events you mention in your post may have been affected in ways that cannot be counted. The changes to the timeline are pretty extreme. Out of universe, we know why, this is a reboot. In universe, it seems too much for the destruction of the Kelvin to explain, nevertheless, that's how it is. However, I agree that it would be prudent to assume that somethings are already 'in motion' so to speak. Spock could easily begin a side project to tell his younger self all the things he experienced, and give appropriate warnings. Alternatively, perhaps Kirk in the mindmeld he shared with Spock, saw bits and pieces.

But I would rather prefer to think that this is a true alternate timeline, and all the things you mention - the wormhole at Bajor, the Borg, the Whale Probe - don't factor into any future installment. I am satisfied that the film has clearly set itself apart from the old canon timeline, and established what amounts to a new, unwritten chapter in Trekdom. Literally anything can happen, and I think it would be better for any new film to try and capture it's own destiny for the franchise than go back and mine the other series for ideas when a lot were, frankly, not that great to begin with, and some were downright awful.

[Havok]

I prefer to think of it that way as well. As I said in one of the other STXI threads, there is so much change that it is likely to not just be a different time, put a parallel universe as well.

[mr friendly guy]

A few thoughts on the alternate time line thing. I think its been argued ad nauseum that Trek works on a many worlds universe, so Nimoy's Spock could theoretically tell the Federation whatever the hell he wants and it shouldn't affect his original time line. However from what we have seen of Trek, there is no reason that the UFP came to that same conclusion (since they don't have the benefit of remembering all the alternate time lines viewers do). In fact with stuff like the temporal prime directive perhaps the UFP actually thinks time travel can actually alter the future. So perhaps Spock doesn't want to intervene in history too much because he thinks it will affect the future rather than create an alternative time line.

Otherwise, if Spock realises that if all it does create an alternative time line it is arguably immoral for him NOT to share with the Federation future knowledge, such as threats from the whale probe, V'ger, the Borg, Dominion etc. Even assuming that in this new time line those threats didn't exist, by sharing knowledge from his time line, he could improve the UFP in other ways. Examples include getting the Federation to research those environmentally safe warp engines, replicators, and generally improve tech so the UFP will be better place to deal with new threats which pop up in this new time line.

[Prannon]

I think Stofsk hit it on the head. The whole point of this film isn't to set old Spock up to tell the Feds how they can avoid certain disasters that are coming like V'ger, the Whale Probe, the Borg, the Dominion, or whatever. The whole debate on how Old Spock can improve the Federation is a little contrived in my opinion, since the point of this film was to start over, as in wipe away the stale, moldy filth that Star Trek had become and go off in a completely new direction. That means new stories, new story types, and hopefully new races/characters/everything! And in the process make some effort to define the relationship between the Romulans, Feds, and Klingons in this new reality and truly explore each power.

I mean, think about what we saw in Iowa at the beginning of the film. Huge, ultra-modern towers out in the plains? Bars? Product brands that we recognize? I saw more culture, complexity, and characterization of human/Federation civilization portrayed in a few minutes of this film than I saw in most every TV episode I've seen! Combined! It's flaws notwithstanding, that's one thing I loved about this film. It cracked open the other elements of Star Trek that many fans on this board have criticized the old series for not exploring enough. Namely, civilian life!

So I'd say that it'd be far more interesting to think about how the writers, directors, and producers can go forward now with completely uncharted territory in front of them than to reminisce on past precedents and talk about how old-Spock can improve the Federation. That's an attitude that should really be put to rest in my humble opinion.

[Themightytom]

I think there were enough prexisting differences in the Reboot verse that we shouldn't take Nero's intervention as the divergent point. The kelvin was bigger and badder than your average ship from TOS the uniforms were different, there were more diverse aliens, I eman originally SPOCK was the "strange visitor from another world" yet I'm pretty sure there was some kind of giant brown lizard thing flying the kelvin at one point.

With regards to the cadet training procedures, Pike said kirk can go through the academy in four years, and be a captain in 8. What?? that means they can have captains that are 26 by DESIGN let alone through the rediculous circumstances Kirk went through, this tells me Starfleet is on a hardcore recruiting campaign. They are desperate for people.

Frequent references are made to a Starfleet force nearby that is engaged in managing some conflict. if 6 top of the line Constitution class Starships could be easily wiped off the map, what makes Spock think that whatever force is nearby would be sufficient to take on nero's ship to "Balance the equation"? The force must be significantly larger than 6 ships. The original federation had 12 constitution class ships.

Taken as a whole this starfleet is more militarized, bigger ships, better armed, larger fleet, and cannon fodder recruits being dumped into them, it sounds like war footing. nero's attacl could have precipitated this aggressive position, the circumstances of the kelvin's destruction appeared widely known, but starfleet wouldn't make such drastic changes based on the loss of one ship (They certainly didn't in TOS when the Connie's were dropping like flies).

This was a preexisting alternate reality which does not neccesarily need to be similiar to the TOS timeline and actually SHOULDN'T be, because with the events we have seen, it would be really difficult for TOS TNG DS9, VOY and even ENT to unfold in the same way, and all of those series featured interaction with Earth's history. multiple threads are unravelled by this movie,

ie: Q won't neccesarily encounter the same incarnation of the Enterprise D, they wont take the same approach to him. he won't send them to meet the Borg, that meeting won't precipitate the borg incursion through Wolf 359, Jean Luc won't be assimilated, First contact won't happen, Borg parts won't end up in the arctic to distract Archer's enterprise etc.

In fact the Xindi BS and the temporal cold war might not happen, as that was part off the original future. The period depicted in ST: ENT would be very different creating a different Federation with different experiences.

Moving forward, the vulcans lose a lot of influence with their planet gone, and must focus their energies on survival, rather than intensive participation in the federation. Can Sarek still participate in the babel conference, if it happens, for example? With the Andorians seize the opportunity to dominate the Vulcans at last? the federation will have to clamp down hardcore on its members, and given its already more aggressive posture that could lead to schisms, confrontations etc.

The tone of the movie suggests that in universe, while exploration would be the ideal goal for the enterprise, they have a lot of housecleaning to do first. Out of universe, finding a ghost that talks to children, a Rock that pesters miners an Amoeba, or a bunch of indians with an Asteroid heading towards their planet would make a dumb movie. TOS had a lot beings/races coming from the edges of the galaxy leaving dead civilizations and desttruction in their wake and they invariably were headed straight towards Earth. These are "more" interesting stories for a movie. The bar has been raised a little bit high for Earth shaking stories though, as we already saw San Francisco first get drilled and second ahve a giant chain crash into the bay, to escalate tension in the second movie they'd have to wipe out a city, the third would be a continent, maybe the fourth they take out the moon.

It would be difficult to do a Wrath of Kahn because the pre-existing emnity between Kirk and Kahn doesn't exist, and after Ricardo Montebaun who could play Kahn anyway way, Triple H???

For me, I honeslty wouldn't mind the next step being a backstep, even if its just a TV movie or a mini series, detailing the events in the old timeline that lead up to the new one, as sort of a prequel, comics don't do enough honestly, and as this movie served as an entry point for new fands, a prequel would ffurther direct them towards the old movies and would further encourage the old fans to buy into tthe reboot franchise. Obviously it'll never happen though.

The next step for Star Trek is to plan a movie for like three years from now, in order to keep any money grubbers from plotting out a half assed TV show, and when that movie DOES come around to reveal and deal with whatever conflict the Federation is implied to already be engulfed in, probably with the klingons, or someone old school like the Gorn.

[Bounty]

A prequel to the prequel is the dumbest idea ever.

The movie sets up the sequel perfectly; you've got the ship and the crew, no more setup needed, it's time to go to a strange new world and explore. No more navelgazing or retreating a slightly different version of old plots. I couldn't be happier if the next movie shows nothing of the Federation except the starship Enterprise and her crew going off into the unknown alone, as it's supposed to be.

[CDiehl]

I think we should consider how the Federation would react to Spock telling them all this information about the future. I doubt they'd believe him. At best, they might stick any math or engineering information in a database somewhere and forget about it, since they can't do much with that information. His claims about future events would probably be ignored, because they sound insane and they refer to a history that they now know has been seriously altered.

In any case, I agree with those who have said it would be a bad idea to rehash previous stories. Considering that the movie has gone to some pains to establish that it and its sequels are not beholden to the established history, it would be a bad idea to go back on that. If we have to have some of those events take place in this version of Star Trek, it's not necessary to show them to us. We saw them already. We can assume that plenty of other things happened between the events already seen in episodes and movies, so they can tell those stories.

[SCVN 2812]

The fact that there were only 10,000 Vulcans offworld strongly suggests that Vulcan was very introverted to begin with. I wonder if this represents a trend towards more centralization in this timeline and that this is a catalyst towards getting far more aggressive in exploration and beginning the trend towards dumping colonists on every marginally inhabitable rock that can be found as an insurance policy for the survival of species. As has been tread and retread often in discussions about space colonization: there is very little reason for a mature industrialized species to leave the home system to colonize other systems other than self preservation. If you have low or near zero population growth (as is common in industrialized nations not experiencing significant immigration from less developed nations with a preference for large families) then there is no population pressure to alleviate and all the resources needed to sustain the population exist in abundance in a star system.

And yet, it must now be recognized in this timeline that if a planet of six billion can be blotted out by something so thoroughly unpredictable as an enraged madman in a 24th century mining ship with access to exotic volatiles, then what else could potentially happen? This could very well begin the period of frantic exploration, colonization and expansion that was observed in TOS which brings the regional powers into conflict, not because they actually expect to get much economic value out of the colonies for several centuries at least or because they are needed to alleviate population pressure but as an insurance policy against a freak catastrophe obliterating the home system and taking virtually the entire species with it.

As a further incentive (rationalization) for conflict, the region of space surrounding Qonos may be considerably sparser in habitable worlds than the sphere the Federation wants to expand into...

[Themightytom]

A prequel to the prequel is the dumbest idea ever.

The movie sets up the sequel perfectly; you've got the ship and the crew, no more setup needed, it's time to go to a strange new world and explore. No more navelgazing or retreating a slightly different version of old plots. I couldn't be happier if the next movie shows nothing of the Federation except the starship Enterprise and her crew going off into the unknown alone, as it's supposed to be.

While I wouldn't mind seeing a modernized Forbidden planet, I fear a mission to Mars. In msot cases a movie depicting exploration fails. Thats something better left to a TV series where you can build up characters to take on the audiences interest rather than depending on flashy lights. its hard to build characters in scifi because first you have to build the universe.

Regardless, my suggestion for a prequel wasn't for plot quality value it was essentially to better bridge the franchise. They didn't do a cold reboot like BSG, they delibrately included a backstory from the Old Timeline. Abandoning the original continuom is for business purposes, stupid. Fans want to know "Wait so... does spock ever go back? Do they think he's dead?" and "Why did the federation only send Spock in a wierd looking ship, was teh enterprise busy?" Explanations that are given in the comic book, but could be better depicted. There's a market and an appetite for tying up loose ends in the other continuom.

[Bounty]

No, there isn't. All loose ends as far as the new universe is concerned were tied up in the movie and comic; any loose end in the original universe can be handled in the books. There's no place for even more rearview mirror-staring in any future movies. That's done; If they try it, they will fail miserably.

Star Trek can *finally* move forward. Why not let it?

[Themightytom]

Star Trek can *finally* move forward. Why not let it?

my suggestion for a prequel wasn't for plot quality value it was essentially to better bridge the franchise.

Abandoning the original continuom is for business purposes, stupid.

There's a market and an appetite for tying up loose ends in the other continuom.

Star Trek CAN move forward now regardless of what goes on with the old franchise. Did they cancel nbsg when Richard hatch started churning out novels about the old one? This situation is significantly more developed, you've had Star trek running for 50 years and they just rebooted it with one movie. The movie revitalized interest in "Star Trek" and the new franchise can't possibly produce enough to satisfy that interest without compromising quality. Why not provide filler from the old universe while the newer one establishes itself?

[Bounty]

You're still advocating a "TV movie or miniseries" based on a dumb-ass idea nobody is waiting for.

[Jade Owl]

I think there were enough prexisting differences in the Reboot verse that we shouldn't take Nero's intervention as the divergent point. The kelvin was bigger and badder than your average ship from TOS the uniforms were different, there were more diverse aliens, I eman originally SPOCK was the "strange visitor from another world" yet I'm pretty sure there was some kind of giant brown lizard thing flying the kelvin at one point.

This was a preexisting alternate reality which does not neccesarily need to be similiar to the TOS timeline and actually SHOULDN'T be, because with the events we have seen, it would be really difficult for TOS TNG DS9, VOY and even ENT to unfold in the same way, and all of those series featured interaction with Earth's history. multiple threads are unravelled by this movie,

ie: Q won't neccesarily encounter the same incarnation of the Enterprise D, they wont take the same approach to him. he won't send them to meet the Borg, that meeting won't precipitate the borg incursion through Wolf 359, Jean Luc won't be assimilated, First contact won't happen, Borg parts won't end up in the arctic to distract Archer's enterprise etc.

In fact the Xindi BS and the temporal cold war might not happen, as that was part off the original future. The period depicted in ST: ENT would be very different creating a different Federation with different experiences.

Excellent point. In the Prime timeline, Kirk and Co. were notorious for their little trips to the past. IIRC by the time of DS9 James T. Kirk still had the biggest file ever on the Department of Temporal Investigations. The Narada altering his personal history means that those trips to the past wont happen, or will unfold differently, which could have generated further alterations in the timeline in a domino effect. Of the top of my head, the Enterprise’s meddling with Gary Seven’s business probably didn’t happen.

And this goes beyond Kirk and his Enterprise. The alterations produced by the Kelvin’s destruction affect all the stable time-loops we know to exist in the Prime timeline’s history. For example: that episode where Data’s head spent 500 in a cave in San Francisco. The changes in the timeline mean that the Enterprise-D will never be involved in the affair in the way we know it and the aliens in that episode will be able to continue killing people in 19th century San Francisco, with all the associated butterfly effects that would cause on Earth’s history by the 22nd century. And as far as we know the list goes on: Quark never crashed in Roswell in 1947; Voyager never had its little escapades in the 20th century, Sisko wasn’t in San Francisco during those riots in the 21st century; the Zefram Cochrane who made first contact without the Enterprise’s help was a cynical, selfish drunk; etc.

Something that must also be considered is that for about 25 years the Narada’s whereabouts are unaccounted for. If Nero was really serious about getting rid of all threats to Romulus, then there are a number of things that he could have done in pursuit of this that could have altered that universe’s timeline going back even before he arrived.

Of the top of my head I can think of one example: The Bajoran Wormhole. Given the period he’s from, Nero and his crew most likely lived thru the Dominion War, and would want to do something to make sure it never happens, and the best way to do this would be to collapse the Bajoran Wormhole. Destroying the wormhole would probably kill the Prophets, and since they exist “outside of space-time” it could potentially erase all their interactions with said timeline. Now, the wormhole has been in existence for at least 10,000 years, and the Prophets have been meddling with the Bajorans for at least 30,000. The Bajoran’s have had the means for interstellar travel for many centuries, so any significant alteration to their culture and history could’ve had generated a butterfly effect that altered galactic history in this timeline. Since the Narada came from another universe altogether, it wouldn’t be affected by any changes in that timeline.

[Themightytom]

You're still advocating a "TV movie or miniseries" based on a dumb-ass idea nobody is waiting for.

And you're projecting your desire to bury the original series for all time. Fair enough.

As evidence that there would be a market for such a miniseries, TV movie or even Webisode, why don't we look at fifty years worth of convention goers, book buyers and rabid trekkies that while willing to embrace a change, would have been just as happy returning to tthe Trek they know and love. hell lets look at the myriad fan series, Star Trek phase II for example. James Cawley made enough of a splash doing that they gave hima role as an extra, and he's using the stunt double from the movie as his Spock.

ADD to that the new fans attracted by the movie who might have become curious about the backstory to this movie. They wouldn't neccesarily be invested enough to want to go out and buy box sets, but if some of them DO get hooked than now they are buying old trek stuff AND new trek stuff. if they decide "Man old trek is retarded" theres a healthy market for heckling and mockery.

Either way i'm not advocating, I'm just observing there would be a market for it. I don't think it would realistically happen just because to do it you'd need some of the old cast members to cameo as well as leonard nimoy to agree to it. its too much work thats why they did a comic book. Brent Spiner for example Does Not want Data to come back, because he felt stupid playing an obviously aging Android.

[Themightytom]

Something that must also be considered is that for about 25 years the Narada’s whereabouts are unaccounted for. If Nero was really serious about getting rid of all threats to Romulus, then there are a number of things that he could have done in pursuit of this that could have altered that universe’s timeline going back even before he arrived.

Which is why you have to treat this as a completely different timeline, seperate and independent of the first, barring the one intervention event which dramatically affected Kirk's life. As OT Kirk frequently states he was born in Iowa, and not on a spaceship his mother probably shouldn't have been on the Kelvin were this just the original timeline, the Kelvin itself doesn't fit in with what we know about that era of starfleet,

because of the butterfly effect on Earth's history, the Eugenics wars might not have happened, Kahn may not be kicking around out there, Edith keeler might have died some other way and changed things as far back as the launch of Voyager six, no V'ger, the Borg might not even be around. Any number of races, events and places people are expecting to see in this universe can't be taken for granted. They picked a logical place to reboot from, beause everything has been based on the original series out of universe therefore In universe as depicted, everything hinges on that era as well.

[VT-16]

On a tangent to this timeline question: I certainly hope the next movie has some kind of hilarious montage/travel-log that sums up all the events of TOS that will potentially be averted if old Spock warns the Federation about it. Like Vaal being taken out from orbit immediately, a travel-line show the Enterprise taking detours around dangerous systems etc. Just something to hint that the Federation got some info from Spock and can concentrate on more unknown conflicts from then on.

[Oskuro]

On the other hand, the Narada's origin was post-Nemesis, where all the ST timeline alterations, including First Contact, had already taken place. I'd wager that at least ENT has taken place as it originally did, and that the divergence caused by the Borg/Enterprise intervention during First Contact might be to blame for the alterations seen at the beginning of the movie. Not to mention the whole Time Wars thing during ENT.

[Worlds Spanner]

Regarding in-universe timeline shifts and Spock's knowledge, that is a good point, It seems unlikely that Nero made the wormhole disappear, but it's possible. I was thinking of knowledge more in terms of technology, unless Nero changes the very laws of, er, "physics."

Sorry to skip back to the previous conversation.

[Starglider]

The alterations produced by the Kelvin’s destruction affect all the stable time-loops we know to exist in the Prime timeline’s history. For example: that episode where Data’s head spent 500 in a cave in San Francisco. The changes in the timeline mean that the Enterprise-D will never be involved in the affair in the way we know it and the aliens in that episode will be able to continue killing people in 19th century San Francisco, with all the associated butterfly effects that would cause on Earth’s history by the 22nd century. And as far as we know the list goes on: Quark never crashed in Roswell in 1947; Voyager never had its little escapades in the 20th century, Sisko wasn’t in San Francisco during those riots in the 21st century; the Zefram Cochrane who made first contact without the Enterprise’s help was a cynical, selfish drunk; etc.

Does anyone remember the movie Millenium? I can just imagine Captain Braxton sitting on the bridge of the USS Relativity in 2834, a tear in his eye as he stares at the message on the viewscreen. Just four words herald the end of his whole civilisation; TIMEQUAKE APPROACHING - MAGNITUDE INFINITY.

[RedImperator]

You're still advocating a "TV movie or miniseries" based on a dumb-ass idea nobody is waiting for.

And you're projecting your desire to bury the original series for all time. Fair enough.

As evidence that there would be a market for such a miniseries, TV movie or even Webisode, why don't we look at fifty years worth of convention goers, book buyers and rabid trekkies that while willing to embrace a change, would have been just as happy returning to tthe Trek they know and love. hell lets look at the myriad fan series, Star Trek phase II for example. James Cawley made enough of a splash doing that they gave hima role as an extra, and he's using the stunt double from the movie as his Spock.

Where were these fans when Enterprise was drawing test pattern ratings? What makes you believe there's a market for a miniseries or a TV movie about the backstory of a damn prequel? Even webisodes have non-trivial production costs when you're talking about bringing in the actors and creating the effects you'd need to pull this off. It's not like nBSG where you had the sets already built and the actors under contract anyway.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Hang on for a minute - before we rush to any conclusions about what he can or can't offer the Federation, is everyone here even sure that he intends to do anything other than try to remain inconspicuous and nameless while he helps the Vulcans rebuild on some obscure colony? I got the impression that he was intending to step aside, literally as well as symbolically, to let the younger Spock live his life as his own. This does make his presence in the Starfleet loading dock and big hall kajigger kind of conspicuous, unless he just slunk through security thanks to having identical biometrics to his younger counterpart, but I still strongly got the impression that he was going to completely withdraw. It doesn't seem like the writers would do an about-face on that and undermine the symbolism with his encounter of his younger self at the end.

Now who's to say that he can't go off and hide with the Vulcan refugees and not throw the Federation the occasional interesting theoretical tidbit that could make things better, as he now seems to be a permanent resident in the neo-Trek universe. He could probably spend the rest of his life spoon-feeding the occasional interesting scientific tidbit to Vulcan researchers, and then step back and let them run with it.

Of course, I suppose he might imagine that he'll probably feel that he should be careful about what he discloses, lest he inadvertently unleashes something that transforms the Federation into the Mirror Universe Terran Empire.

[Bounty]

And you're projecting your desire to bury the original series for all time. Fair enough

No I'm not, you illiterate snot. I'm perfectly happy with the original timeline continuing in books and comics. What I'm not happy with is people who apparently haven't caught onto the whole point of rebooting the universe and insist on seeing good time, money and goodwill wasted on a miniseries that serves only to indulge a minority of fans who think a universe that's been stale and overburdened with nonsensical backstory needs to be staler and more burdened.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Something that must also be considered is that for about 25 years the Narada’s whereabouts are unaccounted for. If Nero was really serious about getting rid of all threats to Romulus, then there are a number of things that he could have done in pursuit of this that could have altered that universe’s timeline going back even before he arrived.

One of the deleted scenes that I dearly hope will make it to the DVD was that of the Narada and her crew busting Nero out of Rura Penthe. How he came to be at the mercy of the Klingon authorities without his ubership to protect him and how long he spent in there is unestablished, but I guess if you really want to be serious about devoting 25 years to a vendetta you need to occasionally barter for maintenance resources and food and what have you. Either way, some of his 25 years would have to be set aside for these things, but how much I couldn't say.

Maybe the television series that could come out of this film would be an account of the Narada's 25 years waiting for vengeance. I can already see how it would go wrong, but it's not like Eric Bana has that busy a schedule and it's far enough removed from Kirk and Spock and co. to make the producers comfortable that it won't interfere with the films while probably sating enough Trekkie trivia-lust.

[Gandalf]

One of the deleted scenes that I dearly hope will make it to the DVD was that of the Narada and her crew busting Nero out of Rura Penthe. How he came to be at the mercy of the Klingon authorities without his ubership to protect him and how long he spent in there is unestablished, but I guess if you really want to be serious about devoting 25 years to a vendetta you need to occasionally barter for maintenance resources and food and what have you. Either way, some of his 25 years would have to be set aside for these things, but how much I couldn't say.

Wait, where was it said that Nero was imprisoned at Rura Penthe?

[Stark]

Hopefully what follows the reboot is a tactical starship combat game with all those awesome models.