What Follows ST XI? (spoilers)

[Havok]

One of the deleted scenes that I dearly hope will make it to the DVD was that of the Narada and her crew busting Nero out of Rura Penthe. How he came to be at the mercy of the Klingon authorities without his ubership to protect him and how long he spent in there is unestablished, but I guess if you really want to be serious about devoting 25 years to a vendetta you need to occasionally barter for maintenance resources and food and what have you. Either way, some of his 25 years would have to be set aside for these things, but how much I couldn't say.

Wait, where was it said that Nero was imprisoned at Rura Penthe?

I think in the comics. I believe that is where he got the scars and where he lost the piece of his ear. Also if you pay close attention to the mind meld scene, the shot of Nero is him in what looks like a cave with people mining behind him. Also, that is why the 47 Klingon ships were destroyed at Rura Penthe, because the Narrada was busting Nero out.

[Gandalf]

The comics end with the Narada and Jellyfish going into the black hole.

[Havok]

Oh. Well then it is self contained in the movie. I guess I picked up all the info up there.

[TithonusSyndrome]

One of the deleted scenes that I dearly hope will make it to the DVD was that of the Narada and her crew busting Nero out of Rura Penthe. How he came to be at the mercy of the Klingon authorities without his ubership to protect him and how long he spent in there is unestablished, but I guess if you really want to be serious about devoting 25 years to a vendetta you need to occasionally barter for maintenance resources and food and what have you. Either way, some of his 25 years would have to be set aside for these things, but how much I couldn't say.

Wait, where was it said that Nero was imprisoned at Rura Penthe?

I think in the comics. I believe that is where he got the scars and where he lost the piece of his ear. Also if you pay close attention to the mind meld scene, the shot of Nero is him in what looks like a cave with people mining behind him. Also, that is why the 47 Klingon ships were destroyed at Rura Penthe, because the Narrada was busting Nero out.

Furthermore, one of the very brief scenes from the trailers is one of Nero flailing his arms out and backwards at two Klingon guards behind him in some kind of spartan chamber. I believe a screencap of it was actually taken and put up on this forum at some point, but I'm not looking for it.

Also, I think there's some Word Of God behind it too, but again, I ain't looking.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Ok, I lied, I looked it up.

Nero on Rura Penthe
Probably the biggest section of the film that has been cut is a whole sub-plot involving Nero on the Klingon prison planet Rura Penthe. Even though it isn’t in the film, clips from this section of the film have worked there way into various trailers, including Nero’s line "the wait is over."

This section of the film is actually not entirely gone. There is a reference in the film to a battle ‘at a Klingon prison planet’ and there is also a brief glimpse of Nero’s past during a flashback sequence (which has also been seen in one of the TV commercials). However, neither of these things makes it clear that Nero was actually a prisoner on Rura Penthe.

Is it just me, or do JJverse Rura Penthe guards wear Predator-helmets?

[Havok]

Whoa... Klingons with actual battle/protective armor?

[Stark]

You mean a plastic hat and an overcoat?

Nice collars, though.

[Kuja]

Is it just me, or do JJverse Rura Penthe guards wear Predator-helmets?

There is a superficial resemblance, but I think it's just that - superficial. Look close and you can see the Klingons' eyes and mouths through the mask openings. I don't think they're supposed to be Pred copies.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Whoa... Klingons with actual battle/protective armor?

They're just prison guards, I think it remains to be seen whether or not JJverse Klingon combat personnel are sane or not yet.

Is it just me, or do JJverse Rura Penthe guards wear Predator-helmets?

There is a superficial resemblance, but I think it's just that - superficial. Look close and you can see the Klingons' eyes and mouths through the mask openings. I don't think they're supposed to be Pred copies.

Yeah I know, I just wasn't sure if they were masks or their faces at a very swift glance at first.

[Jade Owl]

Is it just me, or do JJverse Rura Penthe guards wear Predator-helmets?

There is a superficial resemblance, but I think it's just that - superficial. Look close and you can see the Klingons' eyes and mouths through the mask openings. I don't think they're supposed to be Pred copies.

Yeah I know, I just wasn't sure if they were masks or their faces at a very swift glance at first.

I think they’re J.J. Abrams’s attempt at being clever about the whole smooth-headed vs. bumpy-headed Klingons thing.

The helmets clearly have the ridges, but for all we know, the Klingons underneath could be the Human-like type of the original series. I mean, it’s not as if a lot of people in the general public besides the fans are going to be up to date on the whole Augment Virus explanation from Enterprise.

[Ryan Thunder]

It'd be cool to have them with the pointed teeth and stuff, and then have a Klingon ambassador show up for some negotiation with the Feds in a tuxedo.

He would then proceed to eat a salad with a fork and knife.

EDIT: Better yet, chopsticks.

[Junghalli]

I think we should consider how the Federation would react to Spock telling them all this information about the future. I doubt they'd believe him.

I don't see why the idea that he's from the future would be dismissed completely out of hand. Nero's supership/superweapon had to come from somewhere. It did emerge from some Black Portal of Mystery. A quick genetics test will determine Old Spock is Young Spock's identicle twin. There may or may not be some kind of test they could do to determine he's authentically older than Young Spock and wasn't artificially aged. He's got Kirk's word to back him up from the mindmeld and this is a society with telepaths; it can be determined that if he's lying it's because he's had false memories implanted or is totally crazy. Sure, there are other possible explanations than the story he'd be telling, but it's not like there's no evidence for it and everyone would be like "lol time travel that's just crazy".

Excellent point. In the Prime timeline, Kirk and Co. were notorious for their little trips to the past. IIRC by the time of DS9 James T. Kirk still had the biggest file ever on the Department of Temporal Investigations. The Narada altering his personal history means that those trips to the past wont happen, or will unfold differently, which could have generated further alterations in the timeline in a domino effect. Of the top of my head, the Enterprise’s meddling with Gary Seven’s business probably didn’t happen.

And this goes beyond Kirk and his Enterprise. The alterations produced by the Kelvin’s destruction affect all the stable time-loops we know to exist in the Prime timeline’s history. For example: that episode where Data’s head spent 500 in a cave in San Francisco. The changes in the timeline mean that the Enterprise-D will never be involved in the affair in the way we know it and the aliens in that episode will be able to continue killing people in 19th century San Francisco, with all the associated butterfly effects that would cause on Earth’s history by the 22nd century. And as far as we know the list goes on: Quark never crashed in Roswell in 1947; Voyager never had its little escapades in the 20th century, Sisko wasn’t in San Francisco during those riots in the 21st century; the Zefram Cochrane who made first contact without the Enterprise’s help was a cynical, selfish drunk; etc.

So you'd suggest the other divergences we see (like the Kelvin being bigger than the TOS Enterprise) might actually be the result of changes to the timeline from time travellers from the movie+ era that now never happened or happened differently? So basically the changes stemming from Nero's intervention might reach backwards into time periods before he showed up to create an earlier divergence point?

That's pretty logical, though it's headache-inducing to think about.

[Stark]

That's just sad. If you follow that to it's logical conclusion (given the broad swathe of ST history interfered with or based on time travellers) it's so massively changed as to be unrecognisable. . . just like a parallel world.

Man, nerds are funny as hell. Even their grasping attempts to keep this somehow related to the rest of Trek... demostrate how it's so massively different there's no point considering it related at all. My favourite part is stuff like 'Data's head etc... thus the events of the episode will all happen identically EXCEPT THE FEDERATION PART'. There's no reason to believe the rest will happen either; such is the nature of causality.

[Junghalli]

Man, nerds are funny as hell. Even their grasping attempts to keep this somehow related to the rest of Trek... demostrate how it's so massively different there's no point considering it related at all.

Meh, I couldn't care less about how "related to Trek" it is, I just find the idea fun on an abstract intellectual level.

My favourite part is stuff like 'Data's head etc... thus the events of the episode will all happen identically EXCEPT THE FEDERATION PART'. There's no reason to believe the rest will happen either; such is the nature of causality.

I thought his point was that all these things wouldn't happen, or would happen totally differently, hence why the timeline will diverge well before Nero's intervention?

[Stark]

So why would Cochrane be EXACTLY AS SHOWN IN FIRST CONTACT just... without the E-E crew (ie drunk lol shotguns)? Was there even a WW3? Was he even in Montana? Was this (lol) after the genetic supermen took over in the 90s still? What about Voyager and Roswell being big technological coups? What about the Borg in the Artic?

Turns out it's a bit more complicated than 'everything is the same EXCEPT the ST guys time travelling'. The whole world is different under this theory, from the 18th century on (and I'd bet this coincidentally makes it pretty much like the 'normal' world to avoid all those laughably wrong timeline thingos from TOS, TNG, VOY etc).

[Junghalli]

So why would Cochrane be EXACTLY AS SHOWN IN FIRST CONTACT just... without the E-E crew (ie drunk lol shotguns)?

A valid point.

Was there even a WW3? Was he even in Montana? Was this (lol) after the genetic supermen took over in the 90s still? What about Voyager and Roswell being big technological coups? What about the Borg in the Artic?

Turns out it's a bit more complicated than 'everything is the same EXCEPT the ST guys time travelling'. The whole world is different under this theory, from the 18th century on (and I'd bet this coincidentally makes it pretty much like the 'normal' world to avoid all those laughably wrong timeline thingos from TOS, TNG, VOY etc).

You're absolutely right, the result of this logically would be a totally different world. I don't have a problem with that. I like the idea, since it would make the new universe a true reboot and not saddled with any of the baggage of the old timeline (ENT, for instance).

Of course, it does mean logically Kirk, Spock, McCoy etc. probably shouldn't exist at all in this timeline, but there's precedent for that in Trek already with the Mirror Universe, so I can swallow it.

[Prannon]

And I think Stark has a point about everyone trying to draw connections between this trek-verse and the rest of the franchise. That's not really the point of the film, and it makes this VERY, VERY clear. Everything is changed, nothing is certain, nothing will be the same. Out of universe I chalk up the changes to the artists' creativity and Abrams' desire to just do something different. In universe, we should probably take the movie at face value when they say that "everything is different now." Just leave it at that. It's easier that way.

[Themightytom]

And you're projecting your desire to bury the original series for all time. Fair enough

No I'm not, you illiterate snot. I'm perfectly happy with the original timeline continuing in books and comics. What I'm not happy with is people who apparently haven't caught onto the whole point of rebooting the universe and insist on seeing good time, money and goodwill wasted on a miniseries that serves only to indulge a minority of fans who think a universe that's been stale and overburdened with nonsensical backstory needs to be staler and more burdened.

Illiterate? Do you use a grab bag for insults?? So I to understand that you are completely happy with money invested in books and comics but object specifically for some reason to motion picture depictions? Ultimately none of that matters, my point is that there IS a market for it, so lets stick to that point

Where were these fans when Enterprise was drawing test pattern ratings? What makes you believe there's a market for a miniseries or a TV movie about the backstory of a damn prequel? Even webisodes have non-trivial production costs when you're talking about bringing in the actors and creating the effects you'd need to pull this off. It's not like nBSG where you had the sets already built and the actors under contract anyway.

What are you referring to as "Enterprise test pattern ratings? Enterprise Viewership was UP at the end, specifically when they started to make reference to issues that arose from the original series. I specifically mentioned convention goers however. Show me taht convvention attendance is down, don't substitute my point with your own doomed one, we know Enterprise wasn't popular, the show sucked but that was precisely because it spent three years being something other than what it was proposed to be.

The Mirror universe episode with the Defiant for example, even the Romulan war arc, before people realized it was going nowhere. the fans were alienated because they were INTERESTED in the backstory and Enterprise didn't tell it. Now the backstory described in the comics, portrayed as a prequel wouldn't just attract TNG followers, it heavily features spock, and would draw in the traditional convention goers as well. The same fans who came to see the reboot. you are making a case that there is no market based on a subset and refusing tto consider the entire population of Star Trek fans as a potential market.

You raise valid points about the production costs being prohibitive, I acknowedged that from the get-go with the statement "It probably won't happen." my point is there is a market for it, but probably not enough to support a profit on the individual movie. On the other hand if you inclue profit targets in terms of new fans attracted to the old franchise, a more solid connection with the old franchise leading additional old fans to the new franchise etc, there is some value in the exchange.

As for the actors, leonard nimoy is probably the most expensive of them all. Flash the enterprise by with a Brent Spiner voice over shouting "Hey i'm the captain!", have a cameo by Geordie giving spock his new ship and what other high value actors do you need? Tell me levar burton's luccrative career is running at high gear, he peaked with fricking reading rainbow. You can hire no name actors to play no name characters dressed in contemporary Starfleet uniforms and if its either TV movie or webisode you don't need to have high definition CGI.

[Havok]

The idea that you think that convention goers are somehow not the same as viewing audience for Star Trek (i.e. the core audience that will ALWAYS watch) is pretty moronic. The whole point of Enterprise was to restart the franchise and appeal to a large NON convention going public. It failed miserably at that.

[Themightytom]

The idea that you think that convention goers are somehow not the same as viewing audience for Star Trek (i.e. the core audience that will ALWAYS watch) is pretty moronic. The whole point of Enterprise was to restart the franchise and appeal to a large NON convention going public. It failed miserably at that.

...and as soon as it was obvious that Enterprise was not appealing to a new audience, they turned back to the old one, altering the musical score, touching on traditional themes and story lines and trotting out guest actors from previous series. Theres a bit of a rush right now with the movie being so new and seeming so dramatically different. That will probably fade. New Star trek is diffferent from old Star Trek, but Both Star Treks are NOT mainstream. The franchise has spent too many generations being synonamous with "Nerd" for one movie with the guy from heroes to reverse that. This is a movie hoever, we won't ahve that failure thrown in our face every week.

back to your earlier statement, you assert that convention goers are the "audience that will ALWAYS watch"? Thats like saying mexicans are Brasillian because they're all hispanic. there are plenty of TOS fans who go to conventions who do NOT always watch because they have no interest in anything but TOS. TNG Voyager and DS9 share stylistic similarities and share a common universe as they happen in the same approximate era. TOS was a different show with different appeals, and enterprise was the redheaded step child of both stylistically similar to TNG era but set in its own. i specifically referred to covnention goers because they encompass both TNG nfans, and TOS fans, there are eleemnts of TNG and TOS in the proposed prequel. Those are the only two series with enough of a following to support a movie series.

If ALL convention goers were the "Fans that ALWAYS watch" How does jeri taylor show up at conventions, but we've never seen 7 of 9 on the big screen? Wouldn't the producers have decided to fit her in because there was a draw?

[tim31]

Since you're the one that pointed out Trek actor's careers beyond the various shows, you should be made aware that Jeri Ryan(whom I believe you are talking about, and not Taylor) actually kept herself very busy between bit roles and other commitments like Boston Public. Oh, and she's had a child in the meanwhile.

Back on topic now?

[Themightytom]

Since you're the one that pointed out Trek actor's careers beyond the various shows, you should be made aware that Jeri Ryan(whom I believe you are talking about, and not Taylor) actually kept herself very busy between bit roles and other commitments like Boston Public. Oh, and she's had a child in the meanwhile.

Back on topic now?

Ryan my bad.
And you're right this is all off topic, if you guys REALLY want to debate whether a star trek prequel is a viable endeavor, you can open a seperate thread and I...won't go near it because I'm not a hollywood producer and any conclusions would be meaningless.

[andrewgpaul]

Hopefully what follows the reboot is a tactical starship combat game with all those awesome models.

Oh, if Battlestar Galactica is any guide, homebrew resin ships will be popping up soon enough. Lurk around Starship Combat News for a while. Probably nothing officially licensed, though

[RedImperator]

Where were these fans when Enterprise was drawing test pattern ratings? What makes you believe there's a market for a miniseries or a TV movie about the backstory of a damn prequel? Even webisodes have non-trivial production costs when you're talking about bringing in the actors and creating the effects you'd need to pull this off. It's not like nBSG where you had the sets already built and the actors under contract anyway.

What are you referring to as "Enterprise test pattern ratings? Enterprise Viewership was UP at the end, specifically when they started to make reference to issues that arose from the original series.

You are, as usual, full of shit.

Hollywood reporter link.

You'll have to scroll for a while to get to Enterprise--it's at #142, behind other quality UPN programming like Girlfriends, Half and Half, and Britney and Kevin: Chaotic. It was down fifteen percent in 2004-2005.

I specifically mentioned convention goers however. Show me taht convvention attendance is down, don't substitute my point with your own doomed one, we know Enterprise wasn't popular, the show sucked but that was precisely because it spent three years being something other than what it was proposed to be.

I have a better idea. Why don't you show the class that the convention-goers are enough to support a television production. Where would you even get this idea? Presumably the convention-goers are a subset of the hardcore fans--not every one can afford to go to conventions, or has the time, or particularly wants to, after all--and if anyone is going to watch Enterprise, the hardcore fans will. Your argument seems to be that 1) the convention-goers represent a large enough potential audience to justify a television or webisode production, and 2) most convention-goers weren't watching Enterprise.

The Mirror universe episode with the Defiant for example, even the Romulan war arc, before people realized it was going nowhere. the fans were alienated because they were INTERESTED in the backstory and Enterprise didn't tell it.

Which is why Enterprise was down 15% in season 4. Because it got back to its roots and attracted the fanbase back, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

Now the backstory described in the comics, portrayed as a prequel wouldn't just attract TNG followers, it heavily features spock, and would draw in the traditional convention goers as well. The same fans who came to see the reboot. you are making a case that there is no market based on a subset and refusing tto consider the entire population of Star Trek fans as a potential market.

I can't even follow what the hell you're talking about anymore. You're just pulling shit out of your ass and expecting everyone else to accept it--why don't you show me the data you're using to draw these conclusions, rather than just stating them as fact? And Jesus Christ, proper nouns and the first word in a sentence are capitalized. That's not just for decoration; when you don't capitalize the first word in each sentence, it makes it harder to read the paragraph.

You raise valid points about the production costs being prohibitive, I acknowedged that from the get-go with the statement "It probably won't happen." my point is there is a market for it, but probably not enough to support a profit on the individual movie. On the other hand if you inclue profit targets in terms of new fans attracted to the old franchise, a more solid connection with the old franchise leading additional old fans to the new franchise etc, there is some value in the exchange.

You acknowledged that it probably won't happen, but you obviously don't understand why. You think there's a market for a prequel to the prequel, tying in the new continuity to the old, based on...the huge audience in waiting at Trek conventions, I guess. You haven't lifted a finger to prove any of this, let alone explained why it's necessary. For the pedants who really honestly and truly need 2009-Trek wedged into the old continuity, there's the comic book.

As for the actors, leonard nimoy is probably the most expensive of them all. Flash the enterprise by with a Brent Spiner voice over shouting "Hey i'm the captain!", have a cameo by Geordie giving spock his new ship and what other high value actors do you need?

You're fucking kidding me, right? A universe which has had video telecommunications in-universe forever is going to establish verisimilitude by having Brent Spiner's voice over the radio. And what makes you think this half-assed production could even afford Leonard Nimoy, or that Nimoy would want to act in a miniseries?

Tell me levar burton's luccrative career is running at high gear, he peaked with fricking reading rainbow. You can hire no name actors to play no name characters dressed in contemporary Starfleet uniforms and if its either TV movie or webisode you don't need to have high definition CGI.

So let's summarize: you think, on the heels of a successful movie, that Trek should throw together a cheap TV movie or miniseries or webisode or what-have-you, featuring second-rate CGI and D-list actors, for some hypothetical mass audience of fans who give a shit how the old continuity connects to the new one. This is how you protect the brand you just spent four years and $150 million dollars rebuilding: throwing together a cheapie piece of shit to cash in. Rick Berman, is that you?

[Majin Gojira]

Seriosuly: what's going to follow the latest trek?

Well, if this trek is anything to go by it will likely be an original plot or a rehash of one of the best plots of the series, with more from the "What were the things we like best in Trek?" callbacks and checks.

Of course, hell could freeze over and we could get a movie of "Holodeck Malfunctions and threatens the entire ship"