Coal supply may be overrated

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Coal supply may be overrated

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Vastly overrated
Discovery News wrote:Coal Supply May Be Vastly Overestimated
Michael Reilly, Discovery News

May 11, 2009 -- Forget peak oil -- a series of new estimates of the world's coal supply suggests reserves may be vastly overestimated, and if the planet isn't running on a majority of alternative energies within the next few decades, we could be facing an unprecedented global energy crisis.

On the flip side, a dwindling supply of coal could also throw the breaks on global warming, some argue.

Common knowledge about coal is that major producing nations like China, the United States and Australia, have enough to last hundreds of years, far beyond the reach of oil, which may already be in its twilight years. But worldwide coal production could plateau as early as 2025, according to one new estimate, and a growing group of scientists are concerned that fossil fuel supplies may begin dwindling by mid-century.

Last year, David Rutledge of the California Institute of Technology analyzed the coal production patterns of five regions around the world -- eastern Pennsylvania, France, Germany's Ruhr Valley, the United Kingdom and Japan -- each of which was producing at less than a tenth of its peak levels.

He found that each of the depleted regions followed a rough bell curve of production; initial production was followed by a steep ramp-up, a plateau near peak levels, and then a consistent decline.

When he applied the same formula to coal data from around the world, the results were startling: the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's maximum estimate for extractable coal is about 3,400 billion tons. Rutledge's calculations suggest just 666 billion tons.

The problem with the IPCC estimate is that it lumps coal "reserves" which are easy to mine with coal "resources," which may be impossible to mine. And Rutledge's study shows that, historically, national governments in the five regions have overestimated their reserves by a factor of four on average.

"These appraisals are large-scale issues," he said. "But they're done by governments. What's the incentive for governments not to give a number that is too high?"

James Murray of the University of Washington agrees. In a talk being presented later this month at the American Geophysical Union Joint Assembly, he plans to call for a re-evaluation of IPCC emissions scenarios, all 40 of which overstate humanity's ability to emit the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide, according to Rutledge's numbers.

The committee's projections call for CO2 levels in the atmosphere to approach 500 parts per million by 2050, if emissions continue on their current trend. But Rutledge's work suggest that even if humans burn all the coal and oil we can get our hands on, we won't be able to push CO2 past 450 ppm. Oil sands and other unconventional fossil fuels probably won't add much to that total.

Murray and Rutledge diverge on the question of climate effects, though. Using IPCC models, Rutlgedge argues that global temperatures won't get higher than 2 degrees Centigrade (3.6 Fahrenheit) above preindustrial levels, at the lower end of what scientists think might spark "dangerous" climate change.

"We're still going to have global warming, and it's a serious threat," Murray said. "I have no doubt the IPCC dramatically underestimates climate sensitivity."

Regardless of climate impacts, the concern over looming energy scarcity may be more acute than ever.

"I think we'll see peak coal somewhere between 2025 and 2035," Richard Heinberg of the Post Carbon Institute in California said. "This has huge economic implications. Without growth in our energy supplies, it's very difficult to see how we're going to grow the economy."
Just when you thought coal would save you from Peak Oil. (cue evil laughter) Bwahahaha! </evil>

Okay, serious discussion. If these estimates, and the estimates of peak oil hold any water, this implies that both Peak Oil and Peak Coal will occur pretty much back-to-back. This would seem to only increase the urgency behind the need to transition away from fossil fuels.
User avatar
Androsphinx
Jedi Knight
Posts: 811
Joined: 2007-07-25 03:48am
Location: Cambridge, England

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Androsphinx »

Not that I have anything to add on the main article, but Rutledge has been talking about this for several years, and it's nice to see an article which basically paraphrases his work.
"what huge and loathsome abnormality was the Sphinx originally carven to represent? Accursed is the sight, be it in dream or not, that revealed to me the supreme horror - the Unknown God of the Dead, which licks its colossal chops in the unsuspected abyss, fed hideous morsels by soulless absurdities that should not exist" - Harry Houdini "Under the Pyramids"

"The goal of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions" - John Ruskin, "Stones of Venice"
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Darth Wong »

People have been cheerfully talking about limitless supplies of coal for quite a while now, disregarding the quality of the coal or the difficulty of its extraction. But nobody wants to hear dismal scenarios: everyone wants the story to end with everyone living happily ever after.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Master of Ossus »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Discovery News wrote:He found that each of the depleted regions followed a rough bell curve of production; initial production was followed by a steep ramp-up, a plateau near peak levels, and then a consistent decline.

When he applied the same formula to coal data from around the world, the results were startling: the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's maximum estimate for extractable coal is about 3,400 billion tons. Rutledge's calculations suggest just 666 billion tons.
This is the dumbest methodology that I have ever seen: none of the regions that showed a bell-curve production pattern were influenced in the slightest by depletion of the coal reserves. Coal was simply out-competed by oil, which is a vastly better source of energy. He basically takes all the idiocy of Peak Oil Theorists and then ups it another 100%.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22466
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Mr Bean »

As Master of Ossus, the methodology of the author is suspect to say the least. There literally dozens of shut-down coal mines in West Virgina that are closed due to damn simple reasons like "lack of workers" or "no longer economically viable" Toss in competition from companies that exploited early 70's legislation that let them write off coal mine losses as tax breaks thanks to re-investment acts passed under Ford. And you come to the much more likely scenario that the coal mine production follows a bell-curve not due to lack of supplies but lack of demand.

We in the US have a shit-ton of coal. The author did not bother to exam the hundreds of coal exploratory survey's out there. What he did was the equivalent of going to a McDonalds and tracking the Big-Mac sales over a single day and declaring that the world will soon face a Big-Mac scarcity crisis because fewer people bought Big-Mac's at midnight then they did at mid-day. Did he even exam world demand and factor that in? Maybe less coal is being mined because there's less demand? This is coal we are talking about, once you mined it, you've mined it, you can sit on it pretty easily or leave it in the ground easy enough. It's not going anywhere.

Doing these kinds of studies makes sense for oil because oil fields are always trying to increase production and increase over-head so that they have more latitude to do something than run at 100%.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12269
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Surlethe »

To elaborate on MoO's and Bean's points, this extrapolation only makes sense if you can show that the production decline is because of geological constraints. That's differentiates this study as reported above from predictions of peaking oil production. However, there may be a grain of truth here - if coal demand rises unexpectedly, prices will probably spike until sufficient capital is invested to commence production from these "no longer economically viable" or "never were economically viable" mines. Ultimately, we will run up against a geological barrier, but that barrier can't be reliably determined from production extrapolations - this is no different than, say, Kurzweil abusing the hyperbola fit to declare that technological progress will have a singularity at some finite point in time.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Darth Wong »

That's a fair point, but I was under the impression that we were near to using up all of the really good coal, and that the stuff we pull out in future is going to be of distinctly lower quality.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22466
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Mr Bean »

Darth Wong wrote:That's a fair point, but I was under the impression that we were near to using up all of the really good coal, and that the stuff we pull out in future is going to be of distinctly lower quality.
Nope, welcome to the fun history of mining rights. Once one of those tax dodging companies builds a mine on a good coal seam they have the rights to it for a hundred years where it can sit as a asset on the books. So lots of the coal rights have already been sold off to various companies. Some have mines open but mostly idle. Some have mines opening but working no where near capacity. Some have shut down and the shaft entrance filled in but the mine itself ready to go while others are simply pre-surveyed land which could be broken for a new mine the instant enough equipment and men pulled up.

Lots of mining land is sitting idle since Oil pushed Coal out of the top spot.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Sure plenty of coal is waiting to be exploited, but it is true that an ever larger percentage of that coal is of the Bituminous and Lignite varieties with high sulfur levels compared to Anthracite. That also means it actually releases fewer carbon compounds. Lots of the coal already being used is of the lower quality types. Lots of underground Anthracite mines got closed down too, because strip mining Lignite was cheaper and safer using huge machinery.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Starglider »

High quality coal is great if you have to distribute it to scattered end users and burn it in ships and heating furnaces that lack industrial scale scrubbers. However if it's being sent to a local power station, or nearby Fischer-Tropsch or gassification plant, does quality make that much difference? Ok, you have to mine out a bit more for each net BTU, but that's just a moderate increase in price.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Starglider wrote:High quality coal is great if you have to distribute it to scattered end users and burn it in ships and heating furnaces that lack industrial scale scrubbers. However if it's being sent to a local power station, or nearby Fischer-Tropsch or gassification plant, does quality make that much difference? Ok, you have to mine out a bit more for each net BTU, but that's just a moderate increase in price.
Anthracite has up to three times the energy content of lignite. That’s not a small difference. Sulfur content is around .7% on average but may be less then .3% or as much as 1.5%. Meanwhile bituminous coal is almost always over 2%, and lignite can be 5% or even higher. However most lignite isn’t much worse then bituminous coal in sulfur content per pound… but you burn so many more pounds of it that it easily works out to double the sulfur content already, never mind the comparison to anthracite.

The lesser grades of coal also produce far more toxic ash and particulate pollution per pound, and especially per BTU. CO2 emissions are pretty directly related to BTU output, and are thus a fair bit less per pound with the crap coal. IIRC though smog causes global warming too, so we aren't winning on that one no matter what kind of coal is burned.

Scrubbers can be as much as 95% effective using limestone, but they suck up a huge amount of limestone to do that. I don’t know about what happens with goal gasification, but I know with coal-oil conversion you can remove some of the sulfur, but overall the oil produced will have sulfur content directly proportional to the content of the coal that went into the process. That sulfur then blows in the air when you burn the oil. In fact this is a serious problem with natural oil supplies too, and the high sulfur content of diesel fuel (which was typically made from low grade oil) as been a significant problem in the US recently with the regulations introduced to reduce it.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12269
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Surlethe »

Is it fair to a priori say that the coal exploited so far has been largely all of the good coal reserves? One would think, without falling into the "infinite coal" trap, that there could be good coal reserves inaccessibly buried that are as economically infeasible to exploit as lower-grade coal.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Good coal is more likely to be buried deeply underground and require underground mining methods because all and all, it tends to be older material. However that doesn’t mean the deposits remaining are particularly inaccessible.

The trend in the last 50 years has been to go after the bad coal more aggressively, because we can exploit it with safe, economical and environmentally disastrous methods like mountaintop removal. If we burn it in powerplants the quality different didn’t matter too much because emissions standards that mattered didn’t appear until the 1980s. Once those standards appeared it was way easier to add scrubbers then convince Americans to go back down into underground coal mines enmass as workers. Plus some big coal users like Germany simply never had much anthracite to mine in the first place.

So while I don’t have any numbers at hand, it’s not unlikely that exploitation of coal qualities have been about equal. Early on we did go after anthracite heavily because it was just better, and much better for trains and ships, but that should be balanced out by the more massive scale of open pit mining of the lignite ect... in the last 50 years.

Plenty of coal is buried too deep for economical mining, but huge quantities are shallow. I mean it can be economical to rip off 600 feet of overburden to get at an lignite seam in open pit mining, to give you an idea of what’s done even for crap. With underground tunnels cost are inherently higher the moment you start needing forced ventilation, but they do not rise in direct proportion to depth.

In addition if we can perfect totally robotic mining methods, which seems like a reasonable accomplishment in 10-25 years, then everything would be vastly simplified for deep underground mining. High temperatures, water and ventilation would all become much smaller concerns, and safety problems go away too.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Coal supply may be overrated

Post by Starglider »

I imagine coal surveying/prospecting hasn't had anything like the resources thrown at it (in recent decades) that oil exploration has, which would tend to understate reserves. There's probably also a huge amount of coal under the oceans, which should eventually become practical to mine with robots (the near-shore deposits are reachable in principle with conventional tunnels, it just isn't economic yet).
Post Reply