The OotS thread

[Starglider]

The discussion thread on this one seems to be drawing more crazies than usual;

I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in. Maybe it's just my all nighter studying, but I could vomit on the author right now for cheating every reader in this way. I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again. Xykon is at least lvl 26 and apparently any powerful magic user who has died before is a *****, even one with a multidimensional empire. Good things Liches never die... oh wait... No epic teleports left... priceless... That's about as politely as I can describe my feelings now. I'd contract to the Fiends to help me give the author a piece of my mind, but apparently they can lie when they make a deal too.

I know enough to know it's bad storytelling to suggest Xykon went from 21-22 all the way up to 26 based on one battle against a bunch of guys he should be able to beat, and a guy he couldn't beat and had to run away from, plus 4 months of sitting on his ass. Epic lvls are supposed to be very hard to gain.

Ganeron and Jephton aren't being portrayed as promised. They're being portrayed as complete nothings compared to Haerta, which in itself breaks the agreement of the Fiends, which is that his power would dwarf any mortal arcane user (Haerta being mortal). Instead, they apparently gave him the power of "Haerta, plus 2 other guys tacked on who will make you more versatile but who are basically irrelevant to Haerta's power". That's a gyp. The story sucks, and I'm going to go out now and try to forget it as much as possible. I'm sorry I got into this comic. The story is a total let down.

[Napoleon the Clown]

And V finds out that there's a difference between having epic levels due to effects and legitimately having epic levels.


V is arrogant as all hell. And V wasn't aware that Xykon is much more competent than he lets on. Remember that Roy tried to warn him, but the Soul Splices wouldn't listen at all. After having kicked a dragon's ass so thoroughly, there's a reason for V to feel like s/he is a big enough badass to take on Xykon. Unfortunately, Xykon has Redcloak for that pesky planning part of things and himself for the heavy artillery.

[Lord of the Abyss]

V is arrogant as all hell.

Yes; Vaarsuvius engaged in NO forethought, no planning; just smash in and start blasting under the assumption of invincibility.

Plus, V is still suffering from the equivalent of sleep deprivation, AND obsessed with the superiority of arcane aka "real magic". So no waiting for protection spells from Durkon, and no using Shape Change to turn into something magic resistant and smacking Xykon around. Note that V even used the actual Shape Change into a dragon to kill Mama Dragon; not the abilities that come with the form. Which brings us right back to the "no planning" part; with a little thought V might have had such an alternate form already in mind, regardless of his/her natural inclinations; as it is, V will have to think of doing that on the fly. As opposed to thinking of doing so well after the fight is over.

If Vaarsuvius survives, I expect he/she is going to catch a lot of "Why didn't you . . . " comments.

[Peptuck]

Oh, lollercopters.

The discussion thread on this one seems to be drawing more crazies than usual;

I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in. Maybe it's just my all nighter studying, but I could vomit on the author right now for cheating every reader in this way. I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again. Xykon is at least lvl 26 and apparently any powerful magic user who has died before is a *****, even one with a multidimensional empire. Good things Liches never die... oh wait... No epic teleports left... priceless... That's about as politely as I can describe my feelings now. I'd contract to the Fiends to help me give the author a piece of my mind, but apparently they can lie when they make a deal too.

Gasp. The Fiends, being entities of pure evil who have ALREADY lied to Vaarsuvius, may have lied AGAIN? SAY IT AIN'T SO!

I know enough to know it's bad storytelling to suggest Xykon went from 21-22 all the way up to 26 based on one battle against a bunch of guys he should be able to beat, and a guy he couldn't beat and had to run away from, plus 4 months of sitting on his ass. Epic lvls are supposed to be very hard to gain.

Where, exactly, was it implied Xykon was level 21-22?

Ganeron and Jephton aren't being portrayed as promised. They're being portrayed as complete nothings compared to Haerta,

Well, yeah. They explicitly say she was the most powerful of the three souls, didn't they?

which in itself breaks the agreement of the Fiends, which is that his power would dwarf any mortal arcane user (Haerta being mortal).

A) the Fiends, being evil, may have lied.
B) They never said his/her power would be over keeping Haerta in control.
C) Xykon isn't mortal

Instead, they apparently gave him the power of "Haerta, plus 2 other guys tacked on who will make you more versatile but who are basically irrelevant to Haerta's power". That's a gyp.

One of the casters is a conjurer. The other is stated as the "master of arcane flexibility." Both of those are implied to, yes, make Vaarsuvius more flexible. Haerta is quite clearly said to be the one with the most raw power. I don't see the problem here.

The story sucks, and I'm going to go out now and try to forget it as much as possible. I'm sorry I got into this comic. The story is a total let down.

So, this dumbass decides to leave the comic based on....Vaarsuvius not being able to stack up to an epic lich because one third of his/her fantastic arcane power took a walk due to his own fallibility? Or the fact that the evil entities of pure evil who were manipulating Vaarsuvius for their own evil ends to do evil and commit evil and be evil would, of all things, lie?

[Oskuro]

The story sucks, and I'm going to go out now and try to forget it as much as possible. I'm sorry I got into this comic. The story is a total let down.

MUHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Apparently, D&D munchkins can't even read a comic based on D&D without taking offense at the GM (author) caring more for an enjoyable story than their over-inflated egos. Who wants to bet this guy plays an Elven Wizard of Unlimited Arcane Might?

[consequences]

The issue with Xykon potentially being level 26 is that previously there's been absolutely no indication that he was higher than level 21. We've only ever seen one epic feat confirmed on him, Epic spellcasting. It's a drastic boost in his perceived level, and we already had confirmation that he could throw out enough ninth level spells in a day to peg his charisma in the mid-30s.

The sudden maximize feat does cover that issue however.

The really jarring thing is that V has to have access to the skills and feats of the soul bound(with roughly a 99.9% probability that he has access to their spellcasting attribute numbers as well), and he still managed to blow that concentration check(not to mention generally getting owned). If he doesn't have the feats, he can't cast the spells he's been using, if he doesn't have the ranks in spellcraft and knowledge arcana, he can't toss off the epic level spells, and if he doesn't have a charisma of 19, he can't use the sorcerer's ninth level spells.

[Starglider]

The issue with Xykon potentially being level 26 is that previously there's been absolutely no indication that he was higher than level 21.

That is a lower bound, and he probably got a ton of XP for taking the city and beating all those paladins (in both physical and spirit forms).

The really jarring thing is that V has to have access to the skills and feats of the soul bound(with roughly a 99.9% probability that he has access to their spellcasting attribute numbers as well), and he still managed to blow that concentration check

I bet V took a huge penalty to that check, with the sleep deprivation, frustration, emotional strain and general craziness.

(not to mention generally getting owned)

It's a little disappointing, but it's completely consistent with the story. V neglected to put any foresight into this because s/he believed raw power would be enough. Redcloak insisting on putting anti-caster traps in the throne room was very convenient, but then if they are constantly getting adventurers turning up and trying to thwart their scheme, it isn't too implausible.

If he doesn't have the feats, he can't cast the spells he's been using, if he doesn't have the ranks in spellcraft and knowledge arcana, he can't toss off the epic level spells, and if he doesn't have a charisma of 19, he can't use the sorcerer's ninth level spells.

I got the impression that it wasn't so much V casting the spells, as allowing the spirits to cast their spells through him. At least, that's what the imagery suggests.

[consequences]

The issue with Xykon potentially being level 26 is that previously there's been absolutely no indication that he was higher than level 21.

That is a lower bound, and he probably got a ton of XP for taking the city and beating all those paladins (in both physical and spirit forms).

A ton of xp from Azure City puts him up maybe one level, Dorukan puts him up one, and the dungeon of good crawl is another, and that's being insanely generous. And don't forget, he's been making magic items for months now, each month is 1200 xp down the drain.

Remember, the greatest of the living paladins he faced would have been a speedbump approximately equal to Roy, who he almost certainly didn't even get experience for killing. The vast majority would have been far weaker than that.

The really jarring thing is that V has to have access to the skills and feats of the soul bound(with roughly a 99.9% probability that he has access to their spellcasting attribute numbers as well), and he still managed to blow that concentration check

I bet V took a huge penalty to that check, with the sleep deprivation, frustration, emotional strain and general craziness.

(not to mention generally getting owned)

It's a little disappointing, but it's completely consistent with the story. V neglected to put any foresight into this because s/he believed raw power would be enough. Redcloak insisting on putting anti-caster traps in the throne room was very convenient, but then if they are constantly getting adventurers turning up and trying to thwart their scheme, it isn't too implausible.

If the raw power was being applied even half-assed intelligently when it came to purely tactical decisions, it would be far more effective. For instance, unless the sorcerer-archmage was a complete pudding when he took his levels, V should have access to mastery of shaping and elements, at least for the spells of that one Soul Bind. With the frankly ridiculous lack of damage effects to his targets, it probably wouldn't matter anyway, but it would help keep this from looking as deliberately weighted as it does to me.

If he doesn't have the feats, he can't cast the spells he's been using, if he doesn't have the ranks in spellcraft and knowledge arcana, he can't toss off the epic level spells, and if he doesn't have a charisma of 19, he can't use the sorcerer's ninth level spells.

I got the impression that it wasn't so much V casting the spells, as allowing the spirits to cast their spells through him. At least, that's what the imagery suggests.

By that logic, the time stop caster should have been making the concentration check.

[Solauren]

Quite frankly, the whiners are tools.

Xyklon considerations
#1 - We were never given a clear indication of Xyklon's power level. We just know he's Epic level. We have no solid numbers beyond that prior to now. Now, we know he's at least 26th level. Possibly higher. Possibly a great deal higher.

He also said that Cloister was one of the most powerful abjuration spells ever created. That's got to have a high Spellcraft DC to cast it. That would incidate a high level and therefore shitloads of ranks in Spellcraft.

#2 - We have no idea what kind of defenses Xyklon + Redcloak + Pigtailed girl + Hobgoblin casters have installed in the tower, or the city in general. We've seen some glyphs, that's it. For all we know, the entire environment has been altered to weaken spells against Goblinoid + Necromancers. (I'd do that if I was them).

#3 - Xyklon's been making magic items, that should lower his XP/Level. Bull-fucking shit. There is a magic item in the Epic level Handbook (The Rod of Excellent Magic, Page 138), that gives you up to 2000 XP 1/day for spellcasting.

That's the stock model. There is nothing to say that he doesn't have a few of those kicking around, or a variant that let's those work for magic item creation. (I allow that as a house rule, that you can use a RoEM in item creation. The rule is a bit more details then that, but that's neither here nor there).

You can also use it to pay the XP cost of creating an epic level spell. Epic level spells can be used to create magic items, and a ton of other stuff. So, for the cost of 26,000 XP, Xyklon could have created an epic level spell to do just about anything he wanted, up to and including letting him craft magic items without expending XP.

#4 - There are feats that offset the cost of Item Creation by a considerable margin (Efficient Item Creation on page 53 of the Epic Level handbook comes to mind). That's 10,000 gp vs 1000 gp. That would speed up item creation. Including stuff like traps, items that affect spells in AOE, etc.

#5 - Xyklon + co have had months to work on stuff in Azure City. We have no idea how long Xyklon was working on stuff at his previous base, and what survived (most evil casters have item caches all over the place. Some good ones too). We have no idea what his true resources are.

#6 - Redcloak + Xyklon are familiar with Soul Splices. Apparently very familiar. Something they researched to boost up the Lich's power perhaps? Something Xyklon had at one time?

V/The Fiends
#7 - The Fiends said V's spell slots would be restored. Nothing more. The massive penalty to V's skills from lack of proper rest are probably still there.

#8 - The Fiends didn't lie to V about anything so far. They gave V three souls at V's command. A powerful Conjurer, a Powerful Necromancer, and a powerful Sorcerer. All Epic level. They never said 'oh, and they have every spell in the PHBK memorized each', or anything like that.

V is basically 3 wizards at once right now. Three wizards that may not have all spells covered anymore without the Necromancer.

#9 - V is not that powerful. V is a extra-layer Gelsalt character. Nothing more. V can cast two spells per round using Quickened Spell. (Claps). Wonderful. I've made Barbarian characters that would rip V to shreds based on what we've seen of V. I hate to say this, but V is power, passion, but no common sense.

Xyklon is power, common sense, brains, and contolled passion. V is outclassed.

#10 - V went in without magic items. HOW STUPID IS THAT?

[Vehrec]

The Sudden Maximize feat is sorcerer friendly and will allow Xykon to throw around a Maximized Energy Drain with a 9th level spell slot.

... Now how is that not broken?

[consequences]

Point one is inaccurate, he could very well have taken Sudden Maximize spell, and still be only 21st level.

Points three and four are nonsensical. A house rule on a variant epic item that we have no evidence of him having has no bearing on anything, and increasing the speed he can make things(incidentally bumping his level to 27 to get that feat, or the one to make epic rods for that matter) doesn't reduce the xp requirements.

Point nine at least had the potential to be inaccurate, if any of the spliced souls took the epic feat that lets you pop off more than one quickened spell in a round. No evidence that this is the case and ample evidence that it isn't, but the potential was there.

My main problem right now is that without any visible damage effects, the inevitability of V's defeat seems massively forced. We can see Redcloak and the Hobgoblin react to getting hit, but there's not a scratch or a discoloration on them. I can excuse Xykon shrugging off the sunbeam by virtue of him having piled up something like 65 temporary hit points by now.

edit: Vehrec, the sudden metamagic spells only let you apply the metamagic effect to one spell per day.

[AMT]

The Sudden Maximize feat is sorcerer friendly and will allow Xykon to throw around a Maximized Energy Drain with a 9th level spell slot.

... Now how is that not broken?

Because a simple Death Ward laughs at it?

[Terralthra]

Xyklon...Xyklon's...Xyklon...Xyklon's...Xyklon...Xyklon....Xyklon...Xyklon...Xyklon......Xyklon...

THERE IS NO L IN XYKON

[Vendetta]

The issue with Xykon potentially being level 26 is that previously there's been absolutely no indication that he was higher than level 21.

Xykon spent, what, four hundred strips acting like a total buffoon with Redcloak as his competent advisor who was really getting stuff done.

He's the master of hiding his abilities. Being a lot harder that you thought he was is not a new concept.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Sudden Maximize feat is sorcerer friendly and will allow Xykon to throw around a Maximized Energy Drain with a 9th level spell slot.

... Now how is that not broken?

It's a feat that requires precursor feats that can be used once a day.

[consequences]

The issue with Xykon potentially being level 26 is that previously there's been absolutely no indication that he was higher than level 21.

Xykon spent, what, four hundred strips acting like a total buffoon with Redcloak as his competent advisor who was really getting stuff done.

He's the master of hiding his abilities. Being a lot harder that you thought he was is not a new concept.

What acting? If it weren't for Redcloak saving his ass with healing, decoys, and tactical advice, and then Miko winning the fight for him, his dumbass would have been utterly obliterated in Azure city, something like three times over. Ooh, remember the Silver Dragon that was going to destroy him before a nameless gobbo saved him, astoundingly there was no sudden revealing of capabilities that could have saved his overconfident ass there. Hey, if you've read Start of Darkness, think back to the first battle for Lirian's gate, and the confrontation with Dorukan, both times saved by Redcloak(although the second time his destruction wouldn't have been assured, having a high level rogue stabbing you while dueling an archmage rarely helps your chances of winning). Hey, look at the current fight, again, Redlcoak's planning keeps V from Timestopping and then turning him inside out, and his advice tells him what to do.

Xykon is the master of getting bailed out by others at plot-opportune moments.

[Imperial Overlord]

Nitpick: he was protected from One Eye's sneak attack. Xykon pretty much had the fight in the bag either way.

[consequences]

Nitpick: he was protected from One Eye's sneak attack. Xykon pretty much had the fight in the bag either way.

Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't certain. However the fight was close enough that a rogue repeatedly stabbing him might still have tipped it even without sneak attack damage, plus the opportunity for Dorukan to do something if Xykon spent a round or more obliterating Right Eye, and the possibility of attacks of opportunity if Xykon failed his check to cast defensively at any point. And that's leaving aside the conscious decision Redcloak made not to disintegrate Xykon instead.

Xykon has very consistent script immunity to crap that should kill him, it's just normally it's better done than the current comic.

[Imperial Overlord]

Nitpick: he was protected from One Eye's sneak attack. Xykon pretty much had the fight in the bag either way.

Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't certain. However the fight was close enough that a rogue repeatedly stabbing him might still have tipped it even without sneak attack damage, plus the opportunity for Dorukan to do something if Xykon spent a round or more obliterating Right Eye, and the possibility of attacks of opportunity if Xykon failed his check to cast defensively at any point. And that's leaving aside the conscious decision Redcloak made not to disintegrate Xykon instead.

Rogues are horrible against undead. Redcloak killing his brother to "save" Xykon is the big moment of the fight. Xykon coasts through that fight without serious injury. One Eye wasn't going to do much to change the battle.

Xykon has very consistent script immunity to crap that should kill him, it's just normally it's better done than the current comic.

He's a lich, they're hard to kill. And the script has been harder on him than easy. The anti arcane magic virus in SoD Roy losing his temper and smashing his body on the gate in the early part of the series. Xykon's a scatter brain, in part because he just doesn't give a fuck, but he's second only to Elan as the most character most aware of genre conventions. Combined with his cunning, ruthless dickery, raw power, and access to magic item shops and you've got a bad mofo who can't remember your name but has a lot of ranks in Reverse Psychology.

[Lord of the Abyss]

#6 - Redcloak + Xyklon are familiar with Soul Splices. Apparently very familiar. Something they researched to boost up the Lich's power perhaps? Something Xyklon had at one time?

Someone on another forum said "IIRC from Start of Darkness, the Crimson Mantle gives Redcloak access to the Dark One's knowledge."

[Imperial Overlord]

We know Xykon's magical knowledge is solid, even designing his own spells, and necromancy is definitely one of his focuses. Redcloak is smart and excellent at academic subjects. There's no reason to believe they wouldn't know about soul splices.

[Napoleon the Clown]

As to the concentration check V failed: S/he's an elf. Constitution is one of their biggest weaknesses. S/he likely dump-statted that, too. Even if s/he has the same score as the higher of the two remaining soul splices, he's got a miniscule bonus. I can accept the mental scores of the souls being used, but we've got no reason to believe that V can use any physical stats the souls once possessed. Especially because they're incorporeal and very much dead. They don't have Con scores to begin with. V does. V has the highest Con score of anyone involved.

V's also got penalties. Such as the surprise of getting blind-sided by the traps. Or trance deprivation. And, considering the way the fourth wall is handled in OotS, V could well have rolled badly on top of everything. For the concentration check and the chain lightning spell. Redcloak is higher leveled, and should be able to take a hit and keep going. The lackey is likely more than just random NPC cannon fodder. He has a good chance of being able to fight Roy on equal footing and have a chance of victory. If we fail to take into account Roy would be able to out-think him and use that to his advantage. And we can't forget the save. A good roll on your reflex save can make chain lightning more annoying than an actual threat. We don't even know what feets Redcloak and Lackey (for lack of a better name) have. Evasion is available through multiple classes, and it can drastically cut back on the danger from a spell that gives you a reflex save.

And do you really think Redcloak would be without an impressive amount of magic items? If he's going to take the precautions we have seen him to have taken, I see no reason to believe he wouldn't have some nifty items to give him DR. He's also smart enough to realize that keeping his soldiers in one piece is a good idea, and would probably lend out some nice magic items to them. We're talking about the Epic-level lich's stronghold here. The average CR is likely nothing to sneeze at.

[Solauren]

I have to wonder if Xykon's getting his ass handed to him to a degree isn't due to a little bit of overconfidence on his part.

I mean, okay, so, someone blows up his body. Big deal, he'll grow a new one.

Only a few people seem to know where his Soul Gem is (Redcloak, himself, the thing-under-the-umbrella, and a very-powerful Paladin/Monk Ghost). He can literally live to fight another day, even if his entire body is destroyed.

He can be the arcane engine of destruction without much thought, and get away with it. Literally. Hell, to a degree, it's in his favor.

From his point of view; he's already immune to a shit load of stuff, and can't be killed. Why bother with buff and protection spells in that case? That's spell slots that could be spent on blasting spells.

The only threat; if someone kills Redcloak + destroys his soul gem.

You'll notice when that was a possiblity, he immediate went to get Redcloak the hell out of the fight. He even said he didn't care because he'd grow a new body.

That fight also shows Xykon is capable of fore-thought. Symbol of Insanity on a Superball. Sure, I wouldn't let that work in a game (or would require a spot check or something for the characters), but it worked wonders. He had no way of knowing about the 'Deathless' guards (3E Term for Positive energy undead. Refer to the Eberron campaign setting, and I believe the Book of Exalted Deeds), as even Redcloak was stumped at their exsistence for a moment. (And he apparently has access to a Deities knowledge).

Otherwise, if not for a complete surprise to everyone, he'd have handled that fight and situation quite well, with minimal effort, and have captured that Gate intact.

He would have captured a city full of Paladins + Clerics, and the gate they were protecting, without any serious effort. A quick 'duel' on a zombie dragon with a mid-level fighter he handled with 2 spells (one pre-cast), followed by what could be called a mid-level magic item.

Xykon should not be underestimated. By any means.

[Kodiak]

653 is up

[Solauren]

Well, that explains why V's concentration is in the toilet....