How does finding an alien spaceship help research&science?

[Starglider]

Nuclear reactors certainly don't explode when disassembled. A fission reactor will kill a few engineers with radiation poisoning, but a fusion reactor won't even do that (not quickly anyway, possibly not at all if the fusion is aneutronic). The only obvious fuel source likely to explode if disassembled (or the vacuum on the containment chamber is lost) is antimatter. We're aware of that, so anything that could possibly be an antimatter storage unit will be probed very carefully (e.g. check for magnetic field leakage, bombard with fast neutrons to see if any high-energy gamma is produced etc). Once disassembly begins the pieces will probably be sent to specialist labs (materials, computers etc) all over the country, so even if the power/propulsion plant does blow up not everything will be lost.

[Isolder74]

It's one thing to say that it might blow up, but Isolder74 is acting as if it would definitely blow up. Why should we assume that? Should we assume that alien spacecraft designers would have no concept of safety? They wouldn't design the system to fail in a nondestructive fashion if possible? Why the fuck are we assuming that any ignorant tinkering with the device must cause an enormous explosion? Wouldn't the ship have safeguards to prevent any such thing, if at all possible?

I am not I am responding to a scenario put forward where it DID blow up and then gives us incite into some magic new super substance.

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

I agree that the ship exploding shouldn't happen but this situation STATES that that has happened! You should be berating the idea proposed by The Duchess of Zeon that we'd learn anything useful after accidentally destroying the thing we are trying to study!

How can you study and find out about something that has ceased to exist?

[Darth Wong]

I am not I am responding to a scenario put forward where it DID blow up and then gives us incite into some magic new super substance.

Except that's a huge strawman fallacy. The scenario did NOT specify any such thing, and DOZ's reply only argued that even if we did blow it up, we would still learn something first. You have done absolutely nothing to either justify this scenario or show that DOZ is wrong about how we would learn something first, your moronic assumptions about zero off-site knowledge notwithstanding. She never said anything about "insight into some magic new super substance"; that's your own bullshit.

[Shinova]

Isn't there a chance said Victorian would think the nuke explosion is an act of god and halt all serious thinking right there?

[Stark]

Uh... what? In the Victorian age?

[Isolder74]

I am not I am responding to a scenario put forward where it DID blow up and then gives us incite into some magic new super substance.

Except that's a huge strawman fallacy. The scenario did NOT specify any such thing, and DOZ's reply only argued that even if we did blow it up, we would still learn something first. You have done absolutely nothing to either justify this scenario or show that DOZ is wrong about how we would learn something first, your moronic assumptions about zero off-site knowledge notwithstanding. She never said anything about "insight into some magic new super substance"; that's your own bullshit.

How is that not specified in that sentence?

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

How is Star Wars style hypermatter not a magic new substance if tinkering with the reactor sets it off before we get any samples of it, which the situation implies?

Outside stored information and photographs do nothing to help us figure out what made the explosion big enough to destroy southern Nevada!

[Darth Wong]

How is that not specified in that sentence?

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

How is Star Wars style hypermatter not a magic new substance if tinkering with the reactor sets it off before we get any samples of it, which the situation implies?

Don't be a pedantic ass-clown: that's just an example of something we might postulate as an explanation for the spacecraft. There could be any number of things powering it; it doesn't have to be SW-style hypermatter. What are you going to do next, carefully parse the semantics of her sentence?

[Ariphaos]

It would probably be more appropriate to liken this to a Nimitz class aircraft carrier getting beached sans crew in ancient Rome.

While a lot of it is going to be pretty incomprehensible, there are a lot of personal items aboard a ship of such stature and I would imagine the same would be true of any alien craft intended to be crewed.

Just take your own room for a moment and pick out those items a roman would be able - with difficulty - to comprehend. My own analog watch is one example. It's clearly worn on the wrist, performs a simple, extremely rhythmic function and is marked with symbols. This would allow a potentially bright roman investigator to comprehend digital watches all the easier, and have a beginning of understanding of our math and from there, our language. This is ignoring potential books, technical manuals, and so on.

There are millions of little examples like that going to be hanging around, available for deciphering, potentially in quantity and variety, before we try to crack antigrav/ftl. We may have to resign ourselves to not being able to. Just because the Romans might not be able to understand nuclear power from a beached Nimitz does not mean they learn nothing from it. They may get to the point where they can 'come back to the problem' in a century or two, however.

[Isolder74]

How is that not specified in that sentence?

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

How is Star Wars style hypermatter not a magic new substance if tinkering with the reactor sets it off before we get any samples of it, which the situation implies?

Don't be a pedantic ass-clown: that's just an example of something we might postulate as an explanation for the spacecraft. There could be any number of things powering it; it doesn't have to be SW-style hypermatter. What are you going to do next, carefully parse the semantics of her sentence?

Does it really matter? After the ship is destroyed there is nothing more to learn from it. It is just like thinking a caveman would learn the formula for gunpowder after a box of it explodes in front of him.

[Darth Wong]

It would probably be more appropriate to liken this to a Nimitz class aircraft carrier getting beached sans crew in ancient Rome.

While a lot of it is going to be pretty incomprehensible, there are a lot of personal items aboard a ship of such stature and I would imagine the same would be true of any alien craft intended to be crewed.

Just take your own room for a moment and pick out those items a roman would be able - with difficulty - to comprehend. My own analog watch is one example. It's clearly worn on the wrist, performs a simple, extremely rhythmic function and is marked with symbols. This would allow a potentially bright roman investigator to comprehend digital watches all the easier, and have a beginning of understanding of our math and from there, our language. This is ignoring potential books, technical manuals, and so on.

That's going too far. They might be able to figure out that it's a timekeeping device which uses foreign numerals. They might even be able to figure out our numeral system. That's pretty much it. Forget about learning anything substantial about our math.

There are millions of little examples like that going to be hanging around, available for deciphering, potentially in quantity and variety, before we try to crack antigrav/ftl. We may have to resign ourselves to not being able to. Just because the Romans might not be able to understand nuclear power from a beached Nimitz does not mean they learn nothing from it. They may get to the point where they can 'come back to the problem' in a century or two, however.

The biggest thing they'd learn from the beached carrier is that monstrous metallic sea-going vessels are possible. How long was it before mankind figured out that you could make a boat out of metal?

The vessel would probably take on religious significance, since it is almost a certainty that they would assume such an imposing and fantastic structure must have been made by the gods themselves. Under Pagan beliefs, that might not be a huge problem in terms of continuing to study it: the entire Promethean myth is, after all, a story about mortals stealing the gods' ideas.

[Darth Wong]

Does it really matter? After the ship is destroyed there is nothing more to learn from it. It is just like thinking a caveman would learn the formula for gunpowder after a box of it explodes in front of him.

What fucking part of "stop assuming all knowledge of the object disappears" do you not understand? Even in your stupid caveman example, other cavemen would know that this black powder boom stuff exists, unless he lights it on fire with no one watching, and no one knows he discovered it.

[Starglider]

It would probably be more appropriate to liken this to a Nimitz class aircraft carrier getting beached sans crew in ancient Rome.

Oh not this again. No. No it isn't. Progress isn't linear like that. There's a fundamental, qualitative change between pre-scientific thought and post-enlightenment thought. There's a somewhat less severe qualitative change between pre-industrialised scientific instruments and engineering thought, and the post-industrialised equivalent. Finally the latest two and least significant qualitative changes were the availability of computers and the dawn of modern particle physics. The rate at which we are finding new and mysterious physics to investigate dropped off sharply through the 20th century. That doesn't mean we will be able to replicate advanced technology, but it probably reduces its capacity to thoroughly mystify us far, far below the Romans/nuclear carrier level. It's not inconceivable that there is magic physics that lets a block of apparently undifferentiated quartz crystal act as a Alcubierre drive, but at this point it's looking rather unlikely, and even if it did we have a vast battery of instruments, investigative techniques and theoretical approaches to throw at the problem.

[Darth Wong]

It's also worth pointing out that we are living in an era of unprecedented high literacy levels. So high, in fact, that we take it for granted that everyone can read, even the lower class. For most of human history, this was far from the truth. In the Roman era, you probably would have been lucky to find one man in a town who knew how to read and write. How many experts could they throw at any problem? They viewed problems as something to be solved with labour, not analysis.

[Isolder74]

I could imagine a temple being built around the huge ship.

[Stark]

Absolutely right, and I was about to say something similar. Romans weren't necessarily dumb, but they had far less mental software for the kind of analytical processes Victorians could use in a similar situation. As Mike says, you can't assume they'd be able to produce the kind of conclusions we'd expect.

[Darth Wong]

I could imagine a temple being built around the huge ship.

They couldn't build temples that big. Not even close. And there would still be water around the ship; it would run aground in the sense that it stops and the front of its hull plows into ground, but it wouldn't actually rise up entirely out of the ocean. The front of its hull would still be wet; the hull extends well below the water line and it would run aground a bit back from the shoreline.

It would take the Romans a long time just to find a way to scale the side of the vessel and clamber onto the flight deck.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Isn't there a chance said Victorian would think the nuke explosion is an act of god and halt all serious thinking right there?

Sure, and there's a chance that some modern person who found an alien spacecraft would think it was sent by Satan and destroy it without telling anyone. We are talking about what a particular society could in theory get from an alien spacecraft, not what its most foolish or ignorant members would do.

[aimless]

I'm sure scientists from the 50's could reverse engineer computers and mobile phones if some examples from today were given to them (though if they weren't in working order it would get a bit harder). And as has been pointed out most of our modern power sources are not going to explode casually.

I think that the conspiracy theory of spaceship and reverse engineering it could be possible under pretty limited circumstances: the alien spaceship is built by aliens who were not significantly more advanced than present day, maybe a scenario of a throwaway unmanned observatory craft like Voyager that by sheer luck happens to hit us (odds of this being ludicrously low but still possible I think), and somehow survives reentry with enough interesting bits intact. Or maybe even a science spaceship sent by aliens to study the earth that the government secretly retrieved from orbit, or had a specialized landing craft that's designed to survive reentry.

[Starglider]

I'm sure scientists from the 50's could reverse engineer computers and mobile phones if some examples from today were given to them (though if they weren't in working order it would get a bit harder).

The development of all of these technologies is very well documented and entirely logical. AFAIK there are no apparent 'missing links' in any of our non-military technology (though in many cases some of the key steps were previously classified). I can't imagine why you'd need this conspiracy theory to explain anything - only someone profoundly ignorant of the history of recent technological development could even contemplate it. The version I usually see used in earnest is 'the USAF has anti-gravity reverse-engineered from alien saucers' - at least there is a credible motive for that, in that if such technology did exist it would be hard to explain how the completely novel physics and technology required had been developed in total secrecy.

[PeZook]

The development of all of these technologies is very well documented and entirely logical. AFAIK there are no apparent 'missing links' in any of our non-military technology (though in many cases some of the key steps were previously classified). I can't imagine why you'd need this conspiracy theory to explain anything - only someone profoundly ignorant of the history of recent technological development could even contemplate it.

That would be an excellent argument if conspiracy theories were actually about explanations. They're not, a conspiracy theory is supposed to make the proponent feel smart and good about him/herself.

[aimless]

I'm sure scientists from the 50's could reverse engineer computers and mobile phones if some examples from today were given to them (though if they weren't in working order it would get a bit harder).

The development of all of these technologies is very well documented and entirely logical. AFAIK there are no apparent 'missing links' in any of our non-military technology (though in many cases some of the key steps were previously classified). I can't imagine why you'd need this conspiracy theory to explain anything - only someone profoundly ignorant of the history of recent technological development could even contemplate it. The version I usually see used in earnest is 'the USAF has anti-gravity reverse-engineered from alien saucers' - at least there is a credible motive for that, in that if such technology did exist it would be hard to explain how the completely novel physics and technology required had been developed in total secrecy.

Of course. I'm merely responding to the examples the OP provided, and trying to create a situation where if you rewound time to the 1950's an alien spacecraft could give us technology, even if we're going to invent it anyways.

As for the need for a conspiracy theory, you'd have to ask the OP. I guess he's either wanting to write a work of fiction or was just interested in the idea of it?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It's just amazing how Isolder really can't grasp the idea that knowing something is possible is perhaps the most useful bit of information one can have.

[Sky Captain]

A lot depends on physics behind the alien craft. If it`s based on physics we know then it should be possible to figure out how it works without too much trouble. We should be able to identify things like fusion reactor or antimatter containment machinery, computers, sensors, engines and also reliably figure out the potential risks involved when tinkering with these gadgets.

If that ship based on physics we have not yet discovered (FTL, anti gravity, exotic energy sources) then it`s going to be much like Victorian era engineer trying to figure out how nuclear bomb works. However like already mentioned even knowledge that such exotic technology is possible would be a huge step forward simply because a lot more research would be invested in related physics fields.

Also people involved should be smart enough to know that tinkering with unknown technology designed to handle immense energies required for interstellar flight potentially can be very dangerous if something goes wrong. So I`d assume any tries to actually disassemble or open something would be done with extreme caution likely with robotic equipment. If the ship is light enough to be transported we would possibly move it to a very remote location like island in the middle of Pacific to minimize the risks if something fails with giant explosion.

[Surlethe]

The development of all of these technologies is very well documented and entirely logical. AFAIK there are no apparent 'missing links' in any of our non-military technology (though in many cases some of the key steps were previously classified). I can't imagine why you'd need this conspiracy theory to explain anything - only someone profoundly ignorant of the history of recent technological development could even contemplate it.

That would be an excellent argument if conspiracy theories were actually about explanations. They're not, a conspiracy theory is supposed to make the proponent feel smart and good about him/herself.

Sort of. Conspiracy theories are about explanations the same way creationism is about explanation: they have a vision of the way they want the world to be and they construct their explanations with that in mind. They're not scientific explanations, but they are explanations - in the same sense that Zeus is an explanation for thunder & lightning.

[Solauren]

Isolder, I want to to think about this scenario here for a minute;

Said UFO crashes (more or less intact), but the crew dies from impact injuries. The crash is rather public knowledge, so no cover ups allow.

First, we've just been presented proof that
#1 - Aliens exsist. Life exists off our little rock. More then likely from outside our solar system
#2 - Interstellar travel is possible.

We've been presented with evidence that
#3 - FTL might be possible.
#4 - Gravity technology might be possible
#5 - A shit load of other sci-fi techs might be possible. Depends on how the ship was powered.

In otherwords; research into them is NOT A WASTE OF TIME.

Oh, and evidently, there are aliens out there that could kick our ass. We need technology to defend against that.
MASSIVE GLOBAL RESEARCH AND EDUCATION INCREASES.

Without even looking into the craft, major changes to our world.