SDN Wars: A Galaxy Divided: OOC

[Thanas]

Also does anyone have any problems with my initial OOB?
Fleet
Corvettes 2 pts each
Hardcell 100 units
200 points

Frigates 4 pts each
Munificent 50 units
200 points

Destroyers 8 points each
Providence Class 20 units
Recusant Class 20 units
320 points

Carriers
Gunray Class 15 points each
Nute Gunray
Rune Haako
30 points

Battleships
General Grievous Class 20 points each
General Grievous
Count Dooku
40 points
Droid control Ship 15 points each
Sakaak
Wat Tambor
30 points
Leviathan class 15 points each
25 units
375 points

Three questions from your friendly bean counter:
- What worlds did you claim with what status?
- This will cost you 1225 points in total, leaving you a maximum of 775 points for your infrastructure. What initial infrastruture did you buy?
- Remember that this will have you saddled with a maintenance fee of 408 points per turn, leaving you only 1592 to spend each turn.

In general, I would agree with your OOB. I have no problem with it and substituting a pricier and stronger alternative for the Allegiance is OK with me as well, as you have no other option.

[darthkommandant]

Worlds 2 Homeworlds, 1 Major, 1 Minor World
Skako Homeworld 600 points
Cato Neimoida Major World 400 points
Neimoidia Homeworld 600 points
Temmas (Made up Skakoan Colony World) Average World 200 points.
Total 1800 points
Shipyards
1000 meter CIS Sipyards located at Skako, Neimoidia, and Cato Neimoida (3 total)
390 points
500 meter shipyards located at Skako and Neimoidia
180 points

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You are allowed up to 2000 points for worlds.

[Thanas]

Worlds 2 Homeworlds, 1 Major, 1 Minor World
Skako Homeworld 600 points
Cato Neimoida Major World 400 points
Neimoidia Homeworld 600 points
Temmas (Made up Skakoan Colony World) Average World 200 points.

Two homeworlds? Eh, whatever float your boat.

Total 1800 points
Shipyards
1000 meter CIS Sipyards located at Skako, Neimoidia, and Cato Neimoida (3 total)
390 points
500 meter shipyards located at Skako and Neimoidia
180 points

So you only have the standard defence package, no research station (meaning you can do no research at all) and no extra planetary defences. Not my choice, but not against the rules either. I'm okay with that.

But If I were you I would drop a few cruisers and really invest in two or three resupply bases, otherwise your fleet will run out of supplie quite soon. Just a friendly hint.

But yes, in general, I have no problem with your OOB. My colleauges have to confirm it, but I'll sign of on it.

[darthkommandant]

Ill probably will do that. thanks for your help.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wait, that does not make sense. Two homeworlds, and none of us can raise any one to Homeworld status?

[Agent Sorchus]

First Question: Maintenance cost for starfighters?

I'll be dealing with all the Diplomats that have been sent my way later today. If you want me to cover anything specific just PM me.

Due to the fluidity of the rules right now my OoB might not make any sense, I will be fixing it soon though.

darthkommandant: what do you think of the joint salvage operations idea?

[darthkommandant]

Well I didn't see any rule prohibiting the use of 2 Homeworlds so long as the point total does not exceed 2000.

Agent Sorchus Where is the joint salvage operation located? I would like to take part in it.

[Agent Sorchus]

The Joint salvage operation will be one of the things that is brought up IC when our diplomats meet. If you are good with it it will be posted later today.

[Thanas]

Wait, that does not make sense. Two homeworlds, and none of us can raise any one to Homeworld status?

Meh, it does not give him much - slightly stronger defences, but it is not going to change the upper limit on his points, the maximum number of capships or what he can spend.

Maybe in the interest of fairness he could change the status of one of his average worlds to major and the other one from homeworld to major, but realistically it is not going to make much differene.

First Question: Maintenance cost for starfighters?

Covered in the general rules: 1/3rd of the points you spent on then, aka take your OOB forces and 1/3 of that will be maintenance.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wait, that does not make sense. Two homeworlds, and none of us can raise any one to Homeworld status?

Meh, it does not give him much - slightly stronger defences, but it is not going to change the upper limit on his points, the maximum number of capships or what he can spend.

Maybe in the interest of fairness he could change the status of one of his average worlds to major and the other one from homeworld to major, but realistically it is not going to make much differene.

It however allows him access to TWO 19,000m yards that will allow him to churn out as many as 11-12 X 2 ISDs in 1 year!

[Beowulf]

I think this is a bit too cheap for the shipyards. IMO they are fine as they are with the original point value allotted. They are supposed to be heavily expensive in order to prevent someone steamrolling everyone else. Especially the ISD and above capable shipyards are way too cheap under your model IMO. I agree that the 200m is a bit too pricy ATM.

Here is how I would justify the different costs:

200 m (50 points; 4 game months to build) - the cheapest shipyard.
500 m (90 points; 6 game months to build) - The capability jump to cruiser construction is ok and well worth the price.
800 m (110 points; 8 game months to build, may only be built on average or above world) - another capability jump, but actually quite unhandly for building large-scale cruisers.
1000 m (130 points; 8 game months to build, may only be built on average or above world)
- the most versatile of shipyards. Well done, I think.
1200 m (150 points; 1 year to build, may only be built on a major or above world)
- the biggest yard under ISD construction.
1600 m (260 points; 1 year to build, may only be built on a major or above world)
- The steep increase in price IMO is justified as this allows the player to built ISDs. We all know how powerful these are.
2200 m (400 points; 16 months to build, may only be built on a major or above world)
- capability jump to Allegiance SDs.
3600 m (600 points; 2 years to build, may only be built on major or above world)
- The first heavy battleships
8000 m (1200 points, 4 years to build, ma only be built on a homeworld)
- Jump to Star Dreadnoughts
19 km (2000 points; 8 years to build, may only be built on a homeworld)
- Jump to the heavy Star Dreadnoughts.

I think the curve from 800 to 1200 is a good one and the steep increase in price very well justified. The 200m shipyard sounds like a bit too costly, but remember that in the real world small yards are expensive as well.

How about this: Small yards can be built everywhere. For 500m you need at least a minor world. That should be a good compromise, methinks.

Both the reduction in cost, and the size requirement for the next size make me happier. The cost/length curve still looks a bit funky. To get rid of the humpback would need either an increase in cost of the low-mid slips, or decrease in cost of the high-mid slips, or possibly both. But I'm not going to worry overly much about it.

[Thanas]

Wait, that does not make sense. Two homeworlds, and none of us can raise any one to Homeworld status?

Meh, it does not give him much - slightly stronger defences, but it is not going to change the upper limit on his points, the maximum number of capships or what he can spend.

Maybe in the interest of fairness he could change the status of one of his average worlds to major and the other one from homeworld to major, but realistically it is not going to make much differene.

It however allows him access to TWO 19,000m yards that will allow him to churn out as many as 11-12 X 2 ISDs in 1 year!

It does not, as the rules read:

Players may not construct more than 1 shipyard each of following categories:
3600m, 8000m and 19.000m.

Both the reduction in cost, and the size requirement for the next size make me happier. The cost/length curve still looks a bit funky. To get rid of the humpback would need either an increase in cost of the low-mid slips, or decrease in cost of the high-mid slips, or possibly both. But I'm not going to worry overly much about it.

Glad we found a compromise.

[Coyote]

Thanas--

How about research for ships? We need a point allocation for that.

I was thinking that if we are going to change an existing design, the research (not building-- just research before building begins) should be 6 game months and the cost of the ship in point x2.

And if we are building a whole new ship design, it would be 12 game months to design and cost of ship type x3.

Any other ideas? Should it cost more? Take longer?

[Agent Sorchus]

Research should be scalable to the number of research bases somehow.

EX: Say one base can design in one month one point of research, where the research cost of the ship equals base cost *2. Then add two months finalizing time and build time for your prototype, which costs 3 times the base cost if it is a new design or twice for a modified design. A modified design might also not take the extra 2 months to finalize.

This is all just initial thoughts though, but it is scalable, which is a benefit.

[Thanas]

Here is my proposal for research:

Research

You may either improve upon existing designs or design new ships.

All research projects must be submitted to the mods for review (via PM if you do not want to make it public). Mods may veto any design, so better let them know beforehand. Do not complain about mods vetoing any design or letting it fail in a gigantic catastrophe if you did not inform them beforehand.

A) Improvement upon existing designs
There are three types of improvements. Research of this time takes 2x the build time for ships up to and including cruisers to complete as well as the cost of 4 ships of the type you are attempting to modify. For ships larger than cruisers this takes 1.5x the build time and 3x the cost of a ship.

1. Build time/cost ratio
Through research, it may be possible to lower the cost of ships to 80% of the existing costs in exchange for a 20% increase in build time or vice versa.


2. Efficiency
Through research, you may increase the efficiency of certain subsystems (e.g. faster rate of fire, faster shield recharge) etc. This will drive the cost up by 20% for each subsystem. You may not increase efficiency of any subsystem to a more than 20% increase.
You may not improve efficiency on more than three subsystems.

A ship has the following subsystems (if present):
- engines
- sensors
- Hangars
- turbolasers
- concussion missiles/proton torpedo launchers
- ion cannons
- shield generators
- EW combat suites

3. Design changes.
You exchange an existing subsystem for another one. (Example: Turbolasers instead of ion cannons, shield generators instead of a hangar bay etc.) This will increase the cost of 30% for each subsystem changed, the built time stays the same.

You may not swap more than three subsystems total.


B) Designing new ships
- All proposals of new ship designs must be approved by the mods.
- Designing a new ship type may not results in anyship stronger/faster/cheaper than 20% of A comparable standard design.
- Designing a new ship costs 8x the worth of that shipclass. With ships smaller or cruiser-sized, the minimum design time is 2 years. With ships larger than cruiser class, the minimum design time is 2x the build time but at least 3 years.


C) General research principles:
- Each player may built the maximum number of 1 research station for a major world or above.
- Research stations may be bundled together on a project, note however that due to the infighting by sientists, no more than two research stations may be bundled together. Also, this will result in the product proceeding at 1.5x the speed, not in 2x the speed.
- Each research station may only start one project.
- When redesigning old or designing new ships, a player may not choose to design a shipclass that he is currently unable to built.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

How come the Baas class supply depots now cost 6 points instead of 4? Wasn't there already a larger supply depot-type space station that cost 6 points?

[Thanas]

How come the Baas class supply depots now cost 6 points instead of 4? Wasn't there already a larger supply depot-type space station that cost 6 points?

A minor correction for fairness, as the original price list did only mention this one supply depot for the imps and therefore I thought it best to charge everyone for the same capability.

[Coyote]

Yeah, if we look closely enough I'm sure we can find plenty of inconsistencies and mistakes. A correction would be entered for one, and forgotten for the rest.. A lot of the shiplist stuff got really unwieldy. I was thinking it might be better to just lump ships by size for all vessels... but then I can see problems with that, too.

Thanas, on the research, I was wondering-- I want to upgrade my N1 fighters to something more competitive, how would I account for those costs? Use the "per-wing" costs? I'd be upgrading the hulls and electronics, redesigning, etc, but using existing tech.

Also, how would we classify structural changes where, for example, troops compliment is seriously cut back in order to expand fighter compliment? Just count it as "hangar bays"?

[Thanas]

Thanas, on the research, I was wondering-- I want to upgrade my N1 fighters to something more competitive, how would I account for those costs? Use the "per-wing" costs? I'd be upgrading the hulls and electronics, redesigning, etc, but using existing tech.

That is a good question.
I think we should rate a fighter program the same as a cruiser design as fighters are just so dammed plentiful and minituarization is supposed to be costly.

Also, how would we classify structural changes where, for example, troops compliment is seriously cut back in order to expand fighter compliment? Just count it as "hangar bays"?

Yes, for the purpose of keeping it simply I would rate it as a sub-system swap. That was actually one of the examples I had in mind. I think we should not add too many sub rules and finally get playing. Clearly, this is an issue with more wiggle room than most, but as the mods all have to approve the modifiations, we can decide on a case-by-case issue when it is not clear.

I'll post my OOB tomorrow and I think at that time I'll consider the rules to be final unless there are any major objections.

[Czechmate]

Coyote, this seems...familiar...somehow. Am I going to have to do the map for two concurrent star wars games?

EDIT: This, in case anyone else is wondering, is the map I use as the base upon which I overlay the player-territory layer(s).

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg

Also, Coyote, I respectfully request to partake in your new version of SW:ROE and to maintain the shiplists and map, as I had started doing on SB.com.

PS: I've been playing SW:ROE for a while on SB, and I've got a vast knowledge of Star Wars vessels, their capabilities, and how much they're worth. That's less for Coyote and more for the guys here.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

PS: I've been playing SW:ROE for a while on SB, and I've got a vast knowledge of Star Wars vessels, their capabilities, and how much they're worth. That's less for Coyote and more for the guys here.

That is a curious assertion considering less has been written about their capabilities than anything, and RPG crap does not count.

[Czechmate]

Well, capabilities as relevant to this game. IE what a ship should be able to reasonably do. And I've never played the RPG, so...I guess what I know is based on the ICS books, the Essential Guides, novels from all across the EU, having played SW:ROE for almost four years...oh, nothing much at all, Fingolfin. Nothing much at all.

Oh, PS: I'm neither a minimalist nor a saxtonite. I refuse to ascribe to either doctrine. I forge the middle path between extremist groups.

[RogueIce]

Coyote
For ease of reference, I think you should compile this into your OP in the Prolouge thread, and then move your faction information down to this post you made in the thread. That way it'll be there for everybody to see. Just throw it in as Thanas ameneded (perhaps he can PM you? That would probably work better), we'll take a look to make sure nothing got lost in translation, and then consider them The Rules (TM) until such time as we need to fine tune anything.

For a brief clarification, insofar as 1600m type shipyards go, I will assume it is "two per Major world or above" so basically you can stick two at a Homeworld, as well. That's probably unspoken and understood, but in case anyone gets confused, there you go.

Are we still rolling with ships get default fighter count free (and IIRC planetary defense packages come with free wings) and anything beyond that costs?

Also, I'd be willing to overlook fighter maintainence costs. That's a lot of little 1s and such to keep track of, and odds are you won't be mothballing them. Still, keeping them at a points-buy cost will prevent fihter spam so I'm good with that.

Inasmuch as restriction of "faction-specific" ships go (by this I mean Imperial, Republic, CIS, etc) I don't want to bother with adding costs if an Imperial player tries to build a NR ship. The restriction I say would be, "Does it make sense?" For example, if an Imperial Faction wants to build MonCal ships, that probably wouldn't fly unless you go and subjugate Mon Calamari, and even then it's pretty iffy. Also, NR factions building brand new Imperial Star Destroyers might work, but you'd have to justify it because political reasons should normally say "No" because of the symbology.

As for keeping track of all of this, if anybody is really awesome with Excel and/or Google Spreadsheets, I would be willing to work with them to try and work out some templates, complete with formulas, to help people keep track of their stuff. That way all they have to do is punch in numbers, and let the spreadsheet keep track of where the points go.

Well I didn't see any rule prohibiting the use of 2 Homeworlds so long as the point total does not exceed 2000.

Since nobody can raise their world up to Homeworld, it would seem unbalancing. Then again, all you really get are more points/planet and stronger defenses by default, which anyone with a Major world can upgrade to if they so choose. So I'll go with it, unless Shady or Coyote present serious objection.

[Czechmate]

Coyote
For ease of reference, I think you should compile this into your OP in the Prolouge thread, and then move your faction information down to this post you made in the thread. That way it'll be there for everybody to see. Just throw it in as Thanas ameneded (perhaps he can PM you? That would probably work better), we'll take a look to make sure nothing got lost in translation, and then consider them The Rules (TM) until such time as we need to fine tune anything.

For a brief clarification, insofar as 1600m type shipyards go, I will assume it is "two per Major world or above" so basically you can stick two at a Homeworld, as well. That's probably unspoken and understood, but in case anyone gets confused, there you go.

Are we still rolling with ships get default fighter count free (and IIRC planetary defense packages come with free wings) and anything beyond that costs?

Also, I'd be willing to overlook fighter maintainence costs. That's a lot of little 1s and such to keep track of, and odds are you won't be mothballing them. Still, keeping them at a points-buy cost will prevent fihter spam so I'm good with that.

Inasmuch as restriction of "faction-specific" ships go (by this I mean Imperial, Republic, CIS, etc) I don't want to bother with adding costs if an Imperial player tries to build a NR ship. The restriction I say would be, "Does it make sense?" For example, if an Imperial Faction wants to build MonCal ships, that probably wouldn't fly unless you go and subjugate Mon Calamari, and even then it's pretty iffy. Also, NR factions building brand new Imperial Star Destroyers might work, but you'd have to justify it because political reasons should normally say "No" because of the symbology.

As for keeping track of all of this, if anybody is really awesome with Excel and/or Google Spreadsheets, I would be willing to work with them to try and work out some templates, complete with formulas, to help people keep track of their stuff. That way all they have to do is punch in numbers, and let the spreadsheet keep track of where the points go.

Insofar as I've mixed Imperial and Republican and my own approximately equivalent designs into my OOB, I've tried to stick to a 'triangle ship' rule; that is to say, most of my ships are some form of Star Destroyer or derivative thereof. I have, for example, Nebulas. Those conform to the triangle-ship rule, and are in fact the only Republican naval design I have picked from the grab-bag.

EDIT: Okay, here is the very very first extremely early iteration of the game map. I've just started putting people on, but I wanted to post a sample so you guys knew roughly what to expect. Dark red is my faction, the Tarisian Star Union, and bright green is Beo's faction, Haven. Borders are drawn at 50% opacity and fill is at 30%, so it's almost always easy to see what's within a faction's territory. It's worked for a while for SW:ROE, and I reckon it'll work fine here.



PS: the map I use is just about the most complete SW galaxy map currently around, so don't worry about missing stuff. it's also the most visually appealing and easy to read.