Potential theory on Borg KE Shielding...

[Robert Walper]

As I understand it, kinetic energy shielding is a type of shield in science fiction that prevents matter from directly impacting and/or damaging a target. From observed images and scenes from Star Trek, virtually all KE shielding is an invisible barrier that flares up when impacted by matter.

The following is my attempt to create a consistent and reasonable theory as to why one could reasonably expect the Borg to have the capability to deploy KE shielding for their drones.

In ST:TNG "Q Who?" we clearly see a Borg cube's shields stop photon torpedoes which are solid projectiles with anti-matter warheads. Clearly Borg vessels have KE shielding technology on a ship per ship basis. The technology and it's principles are not new to them.

In ST:TNG "Best of Both Worlds", Worf is repelled by a KE shield surrounding "Locutus of Borg". Whether the KE shield was emitted by Locutus himself or the surrounding ship is yet to be determined by myself. However, it does prove Borg KE shielding exists on small enough scale to protect a single Borg. Another example and a waste of fucking time would be ST:VOY "Unimatrix Zero". Janeway, Tuvok and Torres are trapped within a Borg corridor when KE shielding is activated to prevent them from escaping.

Let's look at a good example of *personal* KE Shielding. In ST:TNG "A Fistful of Datas", Worf is trapped in a holodeck due to a computer error (surprise surprise!) caused by an attempt by engineering to hook up Data to run the Enterprise. The holodeck begins to alter all Western characters into Data look-a-likes and with his abilities. In order for Worf to survive a shootout with the Data "bad guy", Worf constructs a KE shield to protect him from bullets utlizing his communicator as a power source and extra materials from the Western setting. He builds the device in about an hour and a half. The catch is the shield only lasts fifteen seconds, which is actully shown. What's important is that the shield apparently drains power whether it's stopping incoming matter or not. Obviously, KE shielding is energy consuming just being *active*. This also proves that with an appropiate power source and even limited technology on hand, a personal KE shield is easily feasible.

The Borg Collective has been described as "centuries ahead of the Federation" technologically speaking. If Worf can build a KE shield using extremely limited technology, even by Federation standards, why can't the Borg Collective with superior technology do so? Many critics claim the Borg are too stupid or haven't assimilated the technology yet. If you are willing to agree that it *should* be within their technoligcal capabilities, then perhaps there is a reason they do not deploy it. Which brings me to my theory as to why they don't.

Theory: "The necessity for drone KE shielding has not yet outweighted the energy expenditure such shielding would require."

So in other words, deploying KE shields for Borg drones hasn't yet been "cost effective", or as the Borg would put it, "efficent". The Borg are obsessed with "perfection", which seems to include their tactics of minimum effort for maximum gain. I would now like to address many common arguements or claims against this theory:

"Borg drones are lurching zombies."

First off, Borg drones aren't "lurching zombies" as some would put them. In ST:TNG "Descent", we clearly see Borg able to move very quickly during combat. Noted that they were not part of the actual Collective anymore, however, all their technology and implants were still in place, so their movements obviously aren't restricted by them. Voyager episodes have also shown Borg drones being able to move quite freely when it is actually *needed*, such as ST:VOY "Unimatrix Zero" when running down victims. It would seem the Borg Collective *delibrately* keeps their drones slow moving in combat situations. And why? Adapting requires a few Borg to be shot by energy weapons. As a Borg, you don't avoid enemy fire if being fired on is what is required to adapt. And once adapted and virtually immune to the enemy, again, speed is no longer necessary, only completed objectives.

"In all their assimilations, the Borg must have encountered an enemy that uses projectile weaponry like guns and such."

This idea is certainly not improbable. I don't dispute it. But from all available Trek episodes to my knowledge, any race still using projectile firearms is still primitive and could be assimilated or obliterated from orbit. The Borg cannot be faulted for the galaxy they occupy and it's characteristics. And again, even if encountering such weaponry, adapting is far less efficent than simply letting a few drones get shot. Look at Picard in ST: First Contact, he uses a projectile firearm against two drones. He of all people should be intimately familar how effective a weapon it could be. Yet after using it only once, he doesn't even consider using it again, or even equipping his crew with it. Many argue sheer stupidity on his part. Or is it because he knows the Borg so well from personal experience that he knows it still wouldn't help them, because the Borg *can* adapt to such attacks if they become regular.

"Borg drones being killed by KE attacks are wasted, or better yet, not efficent."

Borg drones that are killed, by KE attacks or otherwise, are in fact not wasted. As "Hugh" in ST:TNG "I, Borg" stated, dead Borg are reabsorbed into the Collective. We even directly see the Borg removing components salvaging what is useful. Theory: They are then recovered as energy through the use of a low resolution transporter system (that's why drones disappear and differently than a normal transporter beam). Also, in ST:VOY "Mortal Coil", it is learned that the Borg Collective can "reanimate", or bring back to life, beings that have been dead up to 72 hours. Seven of Nine uses Borg technology and techiques to bring Neelix back to life after the Docter confirmed him dead for at least 18 hours.

"The Borg adapt, therefore any KE attack should have been adapted to long ago if they have the capability."

True the Borg adapt, but they are also interested in efficency. Equipping the entire Borg Collective with energy draining KE shields does not outweight the dozen or so incidents where Borg have been killed by physical attacks.

"Look at Species 8472! They specialized in ripping Borg drones apart physically! Where was their KE shielding then? According to your theory, they should have deployed KE shielding since Species 8472 was such a threat!"

Of course they should have. And who says they didn't? In ST:VOY "Scorpion", we see Species 8472 aliens ripping through the hull of Borg ships and tossing drones around like nothing. In ST:VOY "Prey", Voyager attempts to help a memeber of Species 8472, and in the process, we see two events that clearly demostrate Species 8472's incredible strength. For one, this particular alien ripped through Voyager's undamaged hull, which one must admit is quite durable, and that isn't even taking into account the SIF(Structural Integrity Fields). Plus, when Voyager attempts to contain the alien behind a KE shield, the alien is able to punch through it anyhow, despite the shield being fed from *ship's* power. And this was from a *injured* member of Species 8472! Imagine how easily a fully function and healthy Species 8472 can rip through a Borg drone's KE shield when it can rip through solid hulls and KE shielding generated by ship power! Don't forget, KE shielding is power draining already just being *active*. How could a Borg drone compete with a KE shield supplied with power from a anti-matter reactor that is *still* ineffective? The Borg are advanced, but not *that* incredibly advanced.

"What about Data? He tosses Borg around and kills them easily. Why not adapt the KE shielding?"

Data is a unique android that the Borg consider obsolete. Adapting to his few attacks would be inefficent as well. The Borg aren't going to equip the entire Collective with power draining KE against *one* andriod. Besides, a couple of Borg can restrain him anyhow. After all, he *was* captured by them. The only reason they didn't simply destroy him in ST: First Contact is that they were attempting to get command codes from him. And they only reason *that* was difficult is because Data is a computer, and any computer can purge data from it's storage devices. So their options were very limited.

"Hand to hand combat is still the best option against the Borg."

Hand to hand has on occasion shown to be effective. But it is *not* recommended. Even Picard, a humans with a great deal of personal experience, harshly warns crewman "Don't let them touch you!". Borg assimilation tubules turn victims into drones rather quickly. Borg strength has been established as quite superior to virtually all enemies so far encountered, Species 8472 aside. As an example, in ST:VOY "The Raven", Seven of Nine escapes Voyager on a misguided attempt to return to the Collective. Tuvok and Paris pursue her shuttle in another. Tuvok's plan is to beam onto Seven's shuttle and inject her with a hypospray to knock her out. Paris happens to mention "Come on Tuvok. Vulcan, Borg, close quarters, you don't stand a chance." Tuvok hopes to surprise Seven, yet is forced into hand to hand struggle with her and loses quickly. Seven of Nine is a human *female*, which is generally weaker than a human male, and is pitted against a Vulcan *male*, which can easily incapacitate a equal size human male. Also, Borg were able to restrain Data in ST: First Contact, since they captured him, and also restrain him in ST:TNG "Descent", where only two drones kept him immobile.

"One from ST:VOY "Drone" had futuristic technology, which included a KE shield. So KE shieldig must be futuristic from the Borg perspective."

There is no evidence to indicate that KE shielding is a "future" Borg technology. Instead, it would seem that One had a superior power source for deploying a KE shield, which is the 29th century mobile emitter. And he was an individual, so he had a *choice* to deploy it, and undoubtly *had* to deploy a KE shield since he was facing equal strength Borg drones...the same drones that can restrain an incredibly strong and fast *android*.

Well, all in all, do my arguemets "prove" that the Borg have KE shielding usable by drones? Directly, no. But I think my theory fits most or all of the facts as to why they don't have a reason to deploy it...yet. And how does this relate to the Empire? Well, if my theory were accepted as reasonably feasible, then Stormtroopers using "slug throwers" and other KE attacks might be surprised to find Borg drones protected from such attacks if they are used constantly.

[Master of Ossus]

It's a good theory, but I always have problems with any theory regarding cost effectiveness, especially in a matter like this.

The problem with that particular part of the theory is several fold.

1. The Borg would not have to outfit every drone with KE shielding. They would only need to outfit the drones that are likely to go into combat, or that are at an unusual risk for taking KE damage from another source.
2. More Borg drones appear to be killed by KE weapons than by any kind of energy weapon. KE weapons are similar enough that adapting to one would allow the Borg to adapt to a large group of them (or, at least, should).
3. On a modern battlefield, shrapnel causes more casualties than direct weapons fire. Giving combat drones KE shielding would also allow them to protect themselves from shrapnel and other "near misses."
4. KE shielding would make drones MUCH more difficult to take down en masse (most dangerous to the Borg because it does not allow them to adapt until numerous drones are unecessarily killed).

It is possible, but I see these problems as being too great to be explained away by cost effectiveness, considering that the Borg clearly equip many of their drones with energy shields.

BTW, SF also has access to limited KE shields on a small scale (they are called "force fields, and can prevent people from moving quite easily). They can be seen in numerous episodes. This is just a nit-pick, as we are talking about the Borg, but since you brought up the Borg force-field, I figured we ought to give the nod to SF, also. It really makes no difference, except that it is now more easy to accept that the Borg have such shields, as SF is not as advanced as the Borg.

[Mr Bean]

The thing is as you can see with Worfs shield was it an implant? All borg tecnology tends to be internal and it seems not untill the 29th Century the figure out how to build a shield that won't kill the user from a base-ball amount of KE energy because the implants kinda rip things up going int

[Raxmei]

Fistful of Datas show that a KE shield is fairly cheap to build. Also, shields do not drain energy when they are not activated. Those two facts combined make it plain that it would not be that expensive to equip borg drones with KE shields. You don't have to have your KE shield on all the time, only during battles.

Worf's shield used the power source from a combadge. The power requirements of combadges should be much lower than those for weapon systems. Any serious power supply should have no trouble maintaining a personal shield.

Unless the Borg are bean-counters from Hell who would rather lose a battle than expend an excess joule, they have no reason not to have KE shields.

Strangely, no one else has ever thought to use personal shields in combat. No Trek power uses personal shields, despite the obvious advantages and availability. Peculiar, to say the least.

[Zoink]

Look at Picard in ST: First Contact, he uses a projectile firearm against two drones. He of all people should be intimately familar how effective a weapon it could be. Yet after using it only once, he doesn't even consider using it again, or even equipping his crew with it. Many argue sheer stupidity on his part. Or is it because he knows the Borg so well from personal experience that he knows it still wouldn't help them, because the Borg *can* adapt to such attacks if they become regular.

No, Picard was stupid. Picard spent a great deal of time modifying phasers so they could fire a few more shots. Replicating tommyguns, crossbows, whatever, would have done the same. Even *IF* the drones would eventually adapt he would be stupid not to use them. It was a battle of attrition. The borg had limited drones (assimilated crew), it was essential the E-E crew kill more drones than were assimilated.

Another strange thing: they didn't use melee weapons like swords. Various episodes have shown the security personel are trained in the martial arts, and Worf demonstrated that even a knife is of some use against drones.


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I think the Star Trek quasi-reasoning is thus:

Energy weapons are superior to guns. Advanced races will use energy based weaponry, and it is these races that will pose a threat to the borg.

The borg don't care about casualties. Primitive races whose main weaponry is projectile based, will be of little threat and any casualties will be minimal anyway.

When the borg assimilate a world, they're not going to battle every citizen hand-to-hand. They're going to mass-beam and assimilate them. Situations like FC or Voyager or unique, and don't represent a typical borg conflict.

[Raxmei]

Picard ordered his crew to fight the borg hand to hand if necessary. He would not have given that order if hth fighting was entirely useless.

[Robert Walper]

I think the Star Trek quasi-reasoning is thus:

Energy weapons are superior to guns. Advanced races will use energy based weaponry, and it is these races that will pose a threat to the borg.

I believe my theory question addressed this as well by stating such civilizations will be obliterated or assimilated in orbit. This is why the claim "Borg get their ass kicked on real Earth because we use guns" is such stupidity. The Borg would completely crush us with massive cubes in orbit, and the best we can do is a pathetic unarmed space shuttle that takes weeks to get ready to launch. They'd carve up the cities and beam victims into their vessels.

The borg don't care about casualties. Primitive races whose main weaponry is projectile based, will be of little threat and any casualties will be minimal anyway.

It's certainly true the Borg are not worried about casualties. In ST:VOY "Omega", the Borg sacrificed twenty two thousand Borg drones just to stabalize the Omega particle for, as Seven stated, "A trillionth of a nanosecond". They didn't continue testing only because they couldn't create more of the molecules. Even "large" casualties like the above mentioned are insignificant when the Borg have trillions upon trillions of Borg at their disposal, and can assimilate over three hundred thousand more drones in less than a day with only two cubes. (ref ST:VOY "Dark Frontier")

When the borg assimilate a world, they're not going to battle every citizen hand-to-hand. They're going to mass-beam and assimilate them.

True enough. And given the fact that transporters can remove and/or disable weapons during transit is only another useful edge.

Situations like FC or Voyager or unique, and don't represent a typical borg conflict.

ST: First Contact was a unique situation, and Voyager was virtually ignored by the Borg because the Borg Queen was regularily enforcing a directive not to assimilate them, because Seven was one of her "favorites".

[Robert Walper]

Picard ordered his crew to fight the borg hand to hand if necessary. He would not have given that order if hth fighting was entirely useless.

But that statement was the direct opposite of his earlier warning "Don't let them touch you!", plus, when he made that statement, the crew was extremely uncomfortable with the order and were only following it out of loyalty to him. He later withdrew the order and decided to blow up the ship instead. The reason he gave that order was because he didn't want to blow up the ship. He was becoming desperate, angry and stressed. Anyone easily saw that.

[Pablo Sanchez]

But that statement was the direct opposite of his earlier warning "Don't let them touch you!", plus, when he made that statement, the crew was extremely uncomfortable with the order and were only following it out of loyalty to him. He later withdrew the order and decided to blow up the ship instead. The reason he gave that order was because he didn't want to blow up the ship. He was becoming desperate, angry and stressed. Anyone easily saw that.

You know, you can use a melee weapon with touching someone. Picard could crudely lash a Bowie knife to a six foot pole and kill a dozen Borg drones without ever getting within arms length of them.

[NecronLord]

Quick problem with one of your statements.

such as ST:VOY "Unimatrix Zero" when running down victims.

That is a virtual enviroment. and so they would thoretically be able to do whatever they liked, somewhat like the hackers in the matrix. And secondly I would call that a brisk walk running. Indeed they only seem to catch victims when they fall over due to turning around to look at the drones.

[Master of Ossus]

I think the Star Trek quasi-reasoning is thus:

Energy weapons are superior to guns. Advanced races will use energy based weaponry, and it is these races that will pose a threat to the borg.

I believe my theory question addressed this as well by stating such civilizations will be obliterated or assimilated in orbit. This is why the claim "Borg get their ass kicked on real Earth because we use guns" is such stupidity. The Borg would completely crush us with massive cubes in orbit, and the best we can do is a pathetic unarmed space shuttle that takes weeks to get ready to launch. They'd carve up the cities and beam victims into their vessels.

I agree completely. We would have no defense against the Borg if they attacked us today. We have very few weapons capable of attacking a Borg cube in orbit, and none that could do so with enough power to affect the ship severely. The Borg would be able to assimilate low-risk targets very easily, and would eventually be able to send in enough drones to overwhelm more capable forces (as in "Night of the Living Dead"). However, you have not answered the primary statement, which is that a modern soldier with a projectile weapon (in most cases grenades and assault rifles) would be able to kill more Borg drones than the Borg could assimilate. Modern forces would be able to smash them one-on-one on the ground. Only immense numbers of drones would allow the Borg to defeat modern infantry.

The borg don't care about casualties. Primitive races whose main weaponry is projectile based, will be of little threat and any casualties will be minimal anyway.

It's certainly true the Borg are not worried about casualties. In ST:VOY "Omega", the Borg sacrificed twenty two thousand Borg drones just to stabalize the Omega particle for, as Seven stated, "A trillionth of a nanosecond". They didn't continue testing only because they couldn't create more of the molecules. Even "large" casualties like the above mentioned are insignificant when the Borg have trillions upon trillions of Borg at their disposal, and can assimilate over three hundred thousand more drones in less than a day with only two cubes. (ref ST:VOY "Dark Frontier")

This is a much better way of justifying the Borg's lack of KE shielding. They don't especially care how many drones are "deactivated," but it still does not especially make sense, when taken in context with the statement that the reason the Borg don't outfit their forces with KE shielding is because the shields are too expensive. KE shields, as demonstrated by Worf, are made very easily. Worf's did not work especially well, but it was made on a moment's notice in an extremely primitive environment with pieces put together from a com-badge. There is far more material in each Borg drone than there was in the badge. The cost of a KE shield would be insignificant next to the cost of a complete drone. Even if you do not care about casualties, it is smarter to preserve entire drones with simple and easy modifications like KE shielding. It simply makes no sense that the cost of a KE shield would be significant next to the cost of a complete drone. Even if you do not care about the drone itself, you should care about making the most out of your material--you should care about maximizing your efficiency (which the Borg seem to be obsessed with). They should provide KE shields, if only to their forces that are likely to go into combat.

When the borg assimilate a world, they're not going to battle every citizen hand-to-hand. They're going to mass-beam and assimilate them.

True enough. And given the fact that transporters can remove and/or disable weapons during transit is only another useful edge.

That is not how the Borg have been shown to fight, however. They repeatedly beam their drones to a target and attempt to capture victims one at a time. This has been seen from BoBW to Voyager, and it is consistent. Incidentally, if B&B put the Borg in Enterprise I will personally take a shotgun to both of them.

Situations like FC or Voyager or unique, and don't represent a typical borg conflict.

ST: First Contact was a unique situation, and Voyager was virtually ignored by the Borg because the Borg Queen was regularily enforcing a directive not to assimilate them, because Seven was one of her "favorites".

[/quote]

So, was BoBW also unique in any way? It seemed totally typical.

[Ted C]

The problem, as some other posters have pointed out, is that physical weapons and projectiles carry far more momentum than an energy beam (like a laser or phaser) that carries the same amount of energy. The Borg have to deal with that as well.

This does lead to something of a quandary in "Fist Full o f Datas", wherein Worf's shield deflects multiple holographic bullets without him being pushed across the room. Worf has neither the mass nor the leverage to keep from being moved by such impacts, so the small device he made cannot be solely responsible for the force field that protected him. In order to stand still while those bullets bounce off, that shield has to be anchored to something far more massive, like the Enterprise itself.

Worf knows that he is still on the ship. At a guess, I would have to say that his device used the communicator's technology to tap into the starship's defensive shield system. We know that the Enterprise can put up force fields of arbitrary shape in arbitrary locations (as done in TNG's "Allegiance").

I would hypothesize that Worf found a way to remotely utilize this system, not that he converted a communicator into a force-field generator.

[Raxmei]

Actually, bullets don't have that much momentum. They move very fast, but they aren't that massive. Worf has a much greater mass than the bullets, so their momentum isn't enough to tip him over. One problem is that he should have a really nasty bruise in the area where he placed the communicator. The same thing applies to people wearing bullet-resistant body armor.

[Robert Walper]

The problem, as some other posters have pointed out, is that physical weapons and projectiles carry far more momentum than an energy beam (like a laser or phaser) that carries the same amount of energy.

Hey, Ted, have you seen the DS9 episode where Quark was shot by an energy weapon at close range and blasted across his entire bar? Energy weapons seem to have KE effects quite often. I'm sure you'd agree on seeing many inicidents where victims of phasers and other energy weapons are hurled off their feet or knocked over.

The Borg have to deal with that as well.

What if the Borg apply inertia dampeners on their drones to compensate for momentum. After all, we do see Borg recoil from hits on their shields from energy weapon, like scenes in ST: First Contact.

This does lead to something of a quandary in "Fist Full o f Datas", wherein Worf's shield deflects multiple holographic bullets without him being pushed across the room. Worf has neither the mass nor the leverage to keep from being moved by such impacts, so the small device he made cannot be solely responsible for the force field that protected him.

Unless it as well employed some type of technology commonly referred to as "inertia dampeners".

In order to stand still while those bullets bounce off, that shield has to be anchored to something far more massive, like the Enterprise itself.

Worf knows that he is still on the ship. At a guess, I would have to say that his device used the communicator's technology to tap into the starship's defensive shield system. We know that the Enterprise can put up force fields of arbitrary shape in arbitrary locations (as done in TNG's "Allegiance").

I would hypothesize that Worf found a way to remotely utilize this system, not that he converted a communicator into a force-field generator.

I find it hard to believe Worf could access forcefield generators on the holodeck system when simply turning the program off was beyond his capability.

He utilized the communicator as a power source, but apparently built the device using components salvaged from holodeck materials.

[Darth Wong]

There is a basic problem of fundamental approach here (Walper has always been guilty of that, but I digress). People are trying to force events to fit preconceived notions instead of asking what logically flows from the event.

Regarding Borg physical impact vulnerability vs energy-weapon vulnerability: when we see Borg drones falling in large quantities due to physical impacts over a period of many years and many encounters without developing a defense, the logical conclusion is that they are vulnerable to physical impacts. Walper (and many Trekkies before him) start from the assumption that they must be capable of shielding against said impacts without suffering injury, and proceed to concoct complex explanations for their inability to do so. This is not logical; the most straightforward explanation is that Borg cannot nullify Newton's Third Law or Conservation of Momentum (not surprising; they are physical laws after all, even if some Trekkies don't seem to be familiar with them), so they suffer reaction forces upon physical impacts, and those reaction forces must be absorbed by the soft tissue surrounding whatever implant projects a forcefield. Therefore, physical forcefields would not save the drones even if they worked (indeed, they might exacerbate the severity of an impact by transmitting the reaction forces directly to internal organs and tissues with no cushioning from overlaying skin and muscle), so they are not deployed.

Regarding Worf in the holodeck. He easily cobbles a personal shield together in the holodeck, but we never see people using them in battle. The logical conclusion is that there was something unusual about the holodeck which made this possible. But people start from the assumption that anything which works well in the holodeck must work well outside, so they proceed to concoct complex explanations for their disuse. Why should we assume this, particularly when the peculiar physics of the encounter make it obvious that it's not a conventional impact? Again, I must point out Newton's Third Law and Conservation of Momentum. Worf was not injured by momentum transfer from the bullets to the forcefield generator at his belt buckle, so the obvious conclusion is that they did not carry the same momentum as a real bullet. Remember that a holodeck does not necessarily replicate objects. Many objects are mere forcefield projections which would have no momentum, so the only rational explanation for the scene is that the bullets were forcefield projections, hence the lack of blunt-force trauma at Worf's belt buckle.

[Darth Wong]

BTW, Robert: inertial dampers do not eliminate momentum. Nothing in the universe eliminates momentum. We can easily explain their function by saying that they apply force to counter-balance acceleration forces, rather than leaping to the conclusion that they actually make inertia go away (or that they can do so to incoming external impactors as well as objects inside a ship, or that they can be miniaturized and built onto a Borg drone despite a total lack of evidence, etc). As I said before, you are desperately trying to concoct ever-more complex explanations with ever-more redundant terms in order to evade the logical conclusion. If William of Occam were alive, he'd be pissing his pants laughing at you.

PS. If inertial dampers could eliminate inertia rather than merely compensating for acceleration by applying the necessary forces, they could be used to accelerate objects. Indeed, if every Borg drone had one, there would be no excuse for them to lurch about at a slow walking speed, since the slightest forward pressure under the influence of an inertial damper (as you envision it) would cause startling and abrupt forward acceleration. You are confusing inertial dampers with a "mass-lightening field", which the Feddies generate with their warp engines (but of course, under your interpretation, they shouldn't have to, since their inertial dampers do it already, right?)

[Robert Walper]

BTW, Robert: inertial dampers do not eliminate momentum. Nothing in the universe eliminates momentum.

I don't believe I said it eliminated momentum, but tried to imply somehow reducing it's effects upon a target.

Mr. Wong, arguing with you from my perspective is walking on very thin ice if not simply walking into the lake itself. You have obviously proven your superior knowledge and understanding of physics and science. I merely try to reason a fictional reality into a consistant form using it's rules, and using our universe's rules when they support it. You apply real science and physics which is very educating, but sometimes I believe it cannot explain fictional "reality". For example, in ST:Generations, we clearly see a star affected by a Trilithium torpedo virtually instantly. Current real phyisics and real human knowledge, as I know it, cannot justify or in any way explain how the speed of light is so accelerated, to the point where on a planet's surface that should be similar or identical to Earth, the star's surface can be seen instantly, yet light takes at least eight minutes to make such a trip. Arguing a close star is also obviously not realistic either.

We can easily explain their function by saying that they apply force to counter-balance acceleration forces, rather than leaping to the conclusion that they actually make inertia go away (or that they can do so to incoming external impactors as well as objects inside a ship, or that they can be miniaturized and built onto a Borg drone despite a total lack of evidence, etc). As I said before, you are desperately trying to concoct ever-more complex explanations with ever-more redundant terms in order to evade the logical conclusion. If William of Occam were alive, he'd be pissing his pants laughing at you.

He can laugh all he wants, I'm talking about sci-fi, much of it is laughable. It's not real, such basic concepts such as FTL travel are considered impossible.

Again, I will not dispute your claims regarding real physics and science, yet I think it has been proven many times in many sci-fis they always break basic rules of our universe.

PS. If inertial dampers could eliminate inertia rather than merely compensating for acceleration by applying the necessary forces, they could be used to accelerate objects.

What if the dampener never takes effect unless the shield is impacted, and doesn't eliminate inertia, but just reduces it somewhat. Impossible by our universal rules I'm sure, but by fictional reality rules, I'm not sure.

Indeed, if every Borg drone had one, there would be no excuse for them to lurch about at a slow walking speed, since the slightest forward pressure under the influence of an inertial damper (as you envision it) would cause startling and abrupt forward acceleration.

If it's active when they are simply walking and not under direct attack.

You are confusing inertial dampers with a "mass-lightening field", which the Feddies generate with their warp engines (but of course, under your interpretation, they shouldn't have to, since their inertial dampers do it already, right?)

Wouldn't "mass lightening" make Federation ships even more dangerously vulnerable to momentum?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Robert, to quote Scotty "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain!" So quit your complaing of how "Its impossible now but in this sci-fi universe it might be!" Except for rare, and sickening examples of treknology, like DS9s Probabilty Changer Majic, they isn't anything special, this isn't magic, science and physics doapply, ie-Wongs gotcha cornered.

[Robert Walper]

Robert, to quote Scotty "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain!" So quit your complaing of how "Its impossible now but in this sci-fi universe it might be!"

The limits of what one would term physics in a fictional reality are only those set by the fictional reality, which is only limited by imagination, not the rules of our real universe.

Except for rare, and sickening examples of treknology, like DS9s Probabilty Changer Majic, they isn't anything special, this isn't magic, science and physics doapply, ie-Wongs gotcha cornered.

Star Trek and Star Wars are fantasy. Using science to explain lot of the events and scenes certainly works, but in some instances, our science and physics cannot explain it, such as my Generation example. Therefore I see no problems going with what is established as possible in that fictional universe, not our real one.

[Wicked Pilot]

Star Trek and Star Wars are fantasy.

No shit Sherlock

Using science to explain lot of the events and scenes certainly works, but in some instances, our science and physics cannot explain it, such as my Generation example.

Great, let's just invent our own physics because we're too lazy and/or scientificly ignorant to search for a real explanation.

Therefore I see no problems going with what is established as possible in that fictional universe, not our real one.

Oh that's great. Let's just throw out real world physics. Let's just make it up on the fly. Just answer me one thing, how are we suppost to compare to fictional universes without a standard like real science? Perhaps we should compare SW and ST based upon how much technobabble each series has. Perhaps we could compare them by how cool the various ships look. How about gross box office revenue.

[Mr Bean]

How about Hair Height?

You can't accept the Laws on one topic and yell they don't apply on the next...

Besides the fact they walk around and don't spontaniously exploed(well besides red-shirts) lets us know most of the laws of Physics apply

That and ST is based on OUR Unvierse just in the future and Phyics laws tend not to change much over time
If I could make a greater understament I don't want to know

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Robert Walper, that was probably the stupidest thing you could have said. It basically makes your entire argument totally void.

If you're not going to debate in terms of science, then shut the fuck up and go play tennis or something.

[Master of Ossus]

Walper, I liked your original theory, but I don't think that it is very likely. It is in clear violation of Occam's Razor (you continuously add more terms to the mess, rather than just eliminating the original term you added to solve the problem). The simplest explanation, here, is that the Borg have not equipped their combat drones with KE shields because they cannot. This may be because of an energy problem, or because of some other technical problem that the Borg have in implementing the KE shielding, but it appears relatively clear that your theory, while original and creative and somewhat thought provoking, fails to explain everything correctly.

[Mr Bean]

I like Tennis

What?
Its fun and you get to run around

[Robert Walper]

Great, let's just invent our own physics because we're too lazy and/or scientificly ignorant to search for a real explanation.

I am not saying invent our own physics, I'm saying simply that our physics at times simply cannot explain what happens in sci-fi, like the difference in the speed of light in ST: Generations.

Oh that's great. Let's just throw out real world physics.

I said that? Funny, don't remember.

Let's just make it up on the fly. Just answer me one thing, how are we suppost to compare to fictional universes without a standard like real science?

So you're saying in sci-fi absolutely everything obeys our laws of physics and can always be explained using them? Fine, explain the light speed difference in Generations.

Perhaps we should compare SW and ST based upon how much technobabble each series has. Perhaps we could compare them by how cool the various ships look. How about gross box office revenue.

You're sarcasm is noted. If you don't like my arguements, then don't fucking read them. I do this for fun, not to get pissed off because someone thinks differently than I do about a non-existent "reality".