The Federations morality is their undoing......

[Ben Ingram]

NOTE: While I'm sure it's been said on this board before, I'm just going to extrapolate further on the bigtgest weakness the Federation has: It's morality


1. I've heard the arguement countless times that if the Federation could get their hands on the Death Stars plans, they'd build one and use it to blow up the Empires threshold in the ST galaxy

This is moot. Even IF we assume the Federation was capable of builing a Death Star, I seriously doubt they'd use it. Thier morality is their weakness: If they found a way to defeat a enemy that could easily crush them, but in doing so it meant the death of millions of innocents, they wouldn't take it.

2. They'd allie themselves with the Romulans and Cardassians and defeat the Empire!

No, they wouldn't. Even though it's painfully obvious that the entire Alpha Quad doesn't have the manpower to defeat the Empire, I'm sure the Feds wouldn't ally themselves with races who have commited genocide on a semi-galactic scale and who's moral equivalency is about equal to ninth century Viking raiders.

3. The Federation could adopt hit-and-run tactics against the Empire if they were ever defeated and use these tactics to slowly push the Empire out of the Milky Way!

Unlikely. The Federation wouldn't want to bend the moral arm of the universe so far as to adopt tactics pioneered by such moral giants like the Ferengi.

4. What's to stop the Federation from getting ahold of advanced Kaminoan cloning tech and using it to create a clone army?

Simple. The Federation evolved on a planet where human cloning, even cloning in general, was considered about as far from the moral spectrum as you could go, not to mention it has led to hate and even violence; assuming, of course, the Federation even knew about Kamino.

5. If the Empire were to start colonizing this galaxy, wouldn't the Federation just attqack the usually unarmed transport ships?

Nope. They wouldn't want to kill innocent civillians, and most transport ships would have ISD protection, or at least VSD, anyway.

The Empire, of course, wouldn't have the moral delimas of the Federation.

[ReinnResauq]

1. I've heard the arguement countless times that if the Federation could get their hands on the Death Stars plans, they'd build one and use it to blow up the Empires threshold in the ST galaxy

This is moot. Even IF we assume the Federation was capable of builing a Death Star, I seriously doubt they'd use it. Thier morality is their weakness: If they found a way to defeat a enemy that could easily crush them, but in doing so it meant the death of millions of innocents, they wouldn't take it.

Five syllables, sector 31. They attempted a mass genocide of the founders.

2. They'd allie themselves with the Romulans and Cardassians and defeat the Empire!

No, they wouldn't. Even though it's painfully obvious that the entire Alpha Quad doesn't have the manpower to defeat the Empire, I'm sure the Feds wouldn't ally themselves with races who have commited genocide on a semi-galactic scale and who's moral equivalency is about equal to ninth century Viking raiders.

Again, sector 31. The Federation's 'C.I.A.' They attempted to destroy the entire founder race with a disease.

3. The Federation could adopt hit-and-run tactics against the Empire if they were ever defeated and use these tactics to slowly push the Empire out of the Milky Way!

Unlikely. The Federation wouldn't want to bend the moral arm of the universe so far as to adopt tactics pioneered by such moral giants like the Ferengi.

I don't know about this. I'd figure if the Federation was defeated and it's people were being tortured under the Empire, I'm pretty sure morality would take a back seat to immediate survival.

4. What's to stop the Federation from getting ahold of advanced Kaminoan cloning tech and using it to create a clone army?

Simple. The Federation evolved on a planet where human cloning, even cloning in general, was considered about as far from the moral spectrum as you could go, not to mention it has led to hate and even violence; assuming, of course, the Federation even knew about Kamino.

Now, this is very very true. It should be noted that in the Federation universe, they underwent a series of Eugenics Wars in 1996. The method of Kaminoan cloning is probably as offensive as capitalism to them.

Although this is an interesting question. Does the Federation have the industrial capacity to feed and train a million soldiers for 10 years? No, they don't.

5. If the Empire were to start colonizing this galaxy, wouldn't the Federation just attqack the usually unarmed transport ships?

Nope. They wouldn't want to kill innocent civillians, and most transport ships would have ISD protection, or at least VSD, anyway.

First off, the empire doesn't colonize, it conquers. Secondly, who would try to colonize planets in an area where there's a war going on? If the Federation is defeated, colony ships would be a pretty low priority given that there would be a few thousand other BIG (1.609 km big) problems in the area. This morality argument is moot since it would never happen

The Empire, of course, wouldn't have the moral delimas of the Federation.

Now, this is very true. The Empire kills without mercy or even emotion.

Now, most of the morality arguments above are rather irrelevent. Sector (or is it Section...forgot) 31's attempted genocide clearly indicates that the Federation is not above immoral acts to accomplish objectives. The only difference between the morality of the Empire and the Federation is that the Empire isn't hypocritical about its morality. Starfleet, with all of its Federation high-mindedness, is still a military organization. They won't take a lot of questionably immoral acts that would make the war easier, but when push comes to shove, they will act to do what needs to be done. They will still lose.[/quote]

[Ben Ingram]

1. I've heard the arguement countless times that if the Federation could get their hands on the Death Stars plans, they'd build one and use it to blow up the Empires threshold in the ST galaxy

This is moot. Even IF we assume the Federation was capable of builing a Death Star, I seriously doubt they'd use it. Thier morality is their weakness: If they found a way to defeat a enemy that could easily crush them, but in doing so it meant the death of millions of innocents, they wouldn't take it.

Five syllables, sector 31. They attempted a mass genocide of the founders.

2. They'd allie themselves with the Romulans and Cardassians and defeat the Empire!

No, they wouldn't. Even though it's painfully obvious that the entire Alpha Quad doesn't have the manpower to defeat the Empire, I'm sure the Feds wouldn't ally themselves with races who have commited genocide on a semi-galactic scale and who's moral equivalency is about equal to ninth century Viking raiders.

Again, sector 31. The Federation's 'C.I.A.' They attempted to destroy the entire founder race with a disease.

3. The Federation could adopt hit-and-run tactics against the Empire if they were ever defeated and use these tactics to slowly push the Empire out of the Milky Way!

Unlikely. The Federation wouldn't want to bend the moral arm of the universe so far as to adopt tactics pioneered by such moral giants like the Ferengi.

I don't know about this. I'd figure if the Federation was defeated and it's people were being tortured under the Empire, I'm pretty sure morality would take a back seat to immediate survival.

4. What's to stop the Federation from getting ahold of advanced Kaminoan cloning tech and using it to create a clone army?

Simple. The Federation evolved on a planet where human cloning, even cloning in general, was considered about as far from the moral spectrum as you could go, not to mention it has led to hate and even violence; assuming, of course, the Federation even knew about Kamino.

Now, this is very very true. It should be noted that in the Federation universe, they underwent a series of Eugenics Wars in 1996. The method of Kaminoan cloning is probably as offensive as capitalism to them.

Although this is an interesting question. Does the Federation have the industrial capacity to feed and train a million soldiers for 10 years? No, they don't.

5. If the Empire were to start colonizing this galaxy, wouldn't the Federation just attqack the usually unarmed transport ships?

Nope. They wouldn't want to kill innocent civillians, and most transport ships would have ISD protection, or at least VSD, anyway.

First off, the empire doesn't colonize, it conquers. Secondly, who would try to colonize planets in an area where there's a war going on? If the Federation is defeated, colony ships would be a pretty low priority given that there would be a few thousand other BIG (1.609 km big) problems in the area. This morality argument is moot since it would never happen

The Empire, of course, wouldn't have the moral delimas of the Federation.

Now, this is very true. The Empire kills without mercy or even emotion.

Now, most of the morality arguments above are rather irrelevent. Sector (or is it Section...forgot) 31's attempted genocide clearly indicates that the Federation is not above immoral acts to accomplish objectives. The only difference between the morality of the Empire and the Federation is that the Empire isn't hypocritical about its morality. Starfleet, with all of its Federation high-mindedness, is still a military organization. They won't take a lot of questionably immoral acts that would make the war easier, but when push comes to shove, they will act to do what needs to be done. They will still lose.

[/quote]

A. The Federation is still a "moral majority"-wannabe, reminecent of the so-called modern day "Christian Coallition". I seriously doubt they'd even consider forming an alliance with the Romulans, and they absolutely wouldn't even attempt an alliance with the Borg.

[Eframepilot]

You've obviously never seen the later seasons of Deep Space Nine, where the Federation not only formed an alliance with the Romulans but assassinated a Romulan Senator in order to do so..

[Ben Ingram]

You couldn't GET me to watch a later episode of DS9, or any of the episodes from Voy or Ent either.

[Ben Ingram]

Also, I'm sure the alliance wouldn't last, anyway.

[Darth Phoenix]

Also, I'm sure the alliance wouldn't last, anyway.

It lasted while the war was on.
When it ended theyall split up.
Besides the Federation used a "conspiracy" to force the Romulans to enter the war.

[Ben Ingram]

It doesn't matter; I feel the Romulans would turn on the Feds in a blink of an eye if they saw a threat the size of which the Empire would pose.

[Sonnenburg]

No one's interested in a thread about your feelings. Support your argument, don't just repeat it to try and make it true. That's a Darkstar tactic.

Maybe you'll want to try using Nemesis to support your argument.

[Ben Ingram]

Maybe, but I've only seen about a third of nemesis, which may be why I actually like it.

But everybody knows how sneaky and backstabbing the Romulans are, and we know from experience they turned their back on the Klingons, so I dont see how anyone can argue the point they'd betray the Feds.

[Ben Ingram]

This may be a better way going about explaining my points:

Races I see forming an alliance with the Federation in the event of Imperial invasion:

The Klingons: Even though they are an honorable race, they've been gettin along with the Feds lately {as of Next Gen}, and I dont think they'd mind joining Federation to further their ends.

The Ferengi: They'd run to the Feds for protection

Races I dont see forming an alliance with the Federation:

The Q: They'd just stay out of the way.

The Borg: This is obvious

The Romuans: Thet'd be too smart to join the losing team; though they MAY join the Federation, but only to provide the Empire with information {this may also aply to the Ferengi}

The Gorn: This is given, also.

[Sonnenburg]

I agree with you, but since you brought up the issue in your opening diatribe you have to be prepared to stand against people who present counter-evidence. In this case, the Dominion War alliance of the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans. It's direct evidence challanging your position. You have three choices:

1) Examine the evidence and see if it the interpretation is correct
2) Research the matter and see if there is evidence that negates their evidence
3) Concede the point.

Otherwise there's the Darkstar Proviso: ignore opposing evidence. Read the Darkstar announcement to see how far that position gets you.

[Ben Ingram]

I have the Romulans betrayal of the Klingons, but the alliance in the Dominon War defeats this, so we have 0:0. I haven't really watched enough trek to state any other example but seeing as how the Romulans have treated the Federaiton, it is the farthest thing from my mind to even imagine an alliance against a millitary colossus like the Empire. I just don't see the Romulans as being that stupid as to join with the obvious loser where military battles are concerned.

[Sonnenburg]

Okay, then it again goes back to research or concession. Since you don't watch Trek you are at a severe disadvantage; you're going to have to rely on other people giving you facts rather than on first-hand observations. Check out the other websites dedicated to versus and see if they offer anything, then check out the details of the alliance in question. I'll tell you the episode title: In the Pale Moonlight. You can go get details of it from around the Internet. You might be able to find a binary of it out there too to watch for first-hand research.

If it all sounds like too much work, then say "I don't agree but I can't counter your evidence, so I concede the point." Nothing wrong with that.

[Ben Ingram]

It's not that I dont watch Trek, but I only watch NextGen.
And I do have evidence, not to mention the Romulans rep, so I shouldn't have to concede my point.

[Admiral Johnason]

Actually, i believe that the Gorn respect the Federation in much the same way as England does us. However, this information comes from the Starfleet command series and we haven't seen them in any of the newer shows lately. It is a very ify area. I will bet B&B will put them in an Ent epsiode.

[Ben Ingram]

Yeah, I have the SFC series; but the last canon thing I've seen about them was in the TOS episode were Kirk and the Gorn commander are kidnapped and taken to a planet and forced to fight; they didn't seem too friendly then.

Oh, BTW, are the Lyrans and the other catlike species from Command in anything canon at all?

[ReinnResauq]

Starfleet Command and Starfleet Battles wouldn't really apply to a vs scenario in any case because they're only loosely based on Star Trek. The Lyrans, the Hydrans, the ISC, the Kzinti, the Frax (my favorite race), none of them are related to Star Trek. They're less Star Trek than the great old EGA Trek of nearly two decades ago.

You know, why would the races the Federation allies with be any sort of a point? The Klingons would probably side with the Empire because of their superior combat prowess. The Ferengi would have to remember one of the Rules of Acquisition, "Your death is not good for your business." The Romulans would do the self-serving thing and ally with the Empire, just as they did with the Dominion at first. Oh, and Dominion arrogance might, just MIGHT, prevent them from allying with the Empire.

If the Empire declares war on the Federation, it would be prudent for all other Star Empires to either appease the Empire or, well, die.

[Admiral Johnason]

Is it comman knowledge that the Lyrans are an actual canon race? They appeared on the animated series once or twice. Sorry if I stated the obvious. Are the Hydrans canon?

[Sonnenburg]

The only TAS that counts is the episode Yesteryear. Otherwise it's the films, live action shows, and the books Mosaic and Pathways. So if they appeared in any of those, yes. If not, nope.

[Admiral Johnason]

Okay then.

[Darth Fanboy]

Why does, yesteryear count and not any other TAS episode?

[Sonnenburg]

Apparently some of the Spock material was incorporated into the overall canon of the series, so Paramount has specifically included it in with the canon material.

There are a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.)

[Kurgan]

My summury:

Empire: Ruthless expansionists, warmongers, and control freaks.

Federation: Self-congratulating cultural imperialists and hypocritical moralizers.

Certain elements WITHIN the Federation might use the Death Star (assuming they could somehow figure out how to use it, which is probably doubtful.. and build it, even more doubtful, without serious outside help), but probably not people like Picard.

The question is.. is somebody like Picard representative of the whole Federation leadership, or is he an anomaly (ie: a naive choirboy who actually BELIEVES the rules are infallible?)? That would probably color the question.

Though I bet a lot of folks here would say they wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it or have the resources to build it, so it doesn't matter. I guess look at their past use of genocidal weapons against their enemies for predictions...