Terminator Salvation

[SylasGaunt]

Okay so I just got back from the midnight showing of this and found I had quite a good time.. and freely admit to feeling a couple flutters of fanboy giddiness at certain things that happened in the movie. Though it acknowledges T3 it most certainly isn't anywhere near the same tone.. well except maybe for the very end of T3. It's a grim sort of movie with no 'Elton John Sunglasses' moment or even cheesy one liners.
Spoiler

I was rather surprised with the number of references to the previous films that appeared. Off the top of my head I can remember-

-Nuclear fuel cells for Terminators
-Remember that scar Connor had in the T2 opening? Yeah he picks it up here.
-John has The Picture and those tapes from the end of T1 and that sounds like Linda Hamilton to me.
-Reese referenced John being the one who taught them to fight the machines, and we see a bit of that with him broadcasting tips on how to take out T-600s over the air.
-A slightly updated version of the T-1s from T3 make an appearance in the Skynet camps.
-A couple of familiar lines put in an appearance.
-John still seems to like Guns n' Roses.
-Rubber skinned T-600s

I'd also like to add that the T-800 we see in action here was truly beastly.

[Shroom Man 777]

As a movie, was it good, great, awesome or meh? Because goddamn it, I so need to watch this movie! GODDAMN IT!

[SylasGaunt]

As a movie, was it good, great, awesome or meh? Because goddamn it, I so need to watch this movie! GODDAMN IT!

I can only speak for my personal opinion but I enjoyed it about as much as I enjoy T1. It's got plenty of really good action, some nifty new machine designs instead of just throwing us the old ones, about as much continuity as you can expect from any series where two sides are putting the timeline through a paper shredder, and some interesting new characters in addition to the old.

I would certainly recommend a theater viewing (especially if it's one with a good sound system because there's some REALLY good work there to).

[TheLostVikings]

I would certainly recommend a theater viewing (especially if it's one with a good sound system because there's some REALLY good work there to).

Spoiler

Yeah it is Linda Hamilton, they hired her on purpose to do those tapes just for continuity's sake... well as much continuity you can have in a franchise where time travel fucks up the timeline on a regular basis.

Gah it wont be out for another three weeks here in Japan, and even though it is a movie best watched on a big screen I really doubt I'll be able to refrain from seeing it for that long... curse you, impatience

[Peptuck]

Haven't seen it yet, but I'm planning to go see it Friday.

[Ghost Rider]

I'm with Sylas on it being at least T1 enjoyable if not more so. For the most part, it actually was good because it didn't try to go too overboard on some of the points it could have and the twist was nice. Also two real things I enjoyed.

1. Connor isn't the all knowing messiah leader. And he's only a hgih ranking member of his particular group. Sure, at the end you see how much they trust him, but I digress.

2. There's a military with everything versus guys with guns. I really did want to see more, but you at least get the idea that not everything was blown back into nothing and only Skynet had any hardware.

I will say the final battle between Connor/Termie is fucking awesome in just how much that motherfucking thing could take. I guess time travel fucks something up .
Spoiler

When the T-800 came out looking like young Arnold, with the music...that was fucking awesome.

[Death from the Sea]

I agree with GR and Sylas on this movie being enjoyable as T1. And the T-800 reveal was great like GR said.

I liked how they were able to sneak in that oh so famous one line as well.

[SylasGaunt]

Spoiler

When the T-800 came out looking like young Arnold, with the music...that was fucking awesome.

The people in my theater burst into cheers when that happened.

[LadyTevar]

Now, that's odd, because the two resident geeks in my office have both said that it sucks, wasn't all it's cracked up to be.

Me personally, I have no burning desire to see it.

[MKSheppard]

Saw it at a rear window Captioned theater; and liked it.

There's so much about it that I liked -- that I don't know where to start...

For one, the fact that we see fucking more of the future than just a battered rubbled Los Angeles Landscape at nighttime is great.

[Anguirus]

I thought the movie was solid, but flawed.

Maybe I just have abnormally high standards when it comes to Terminator...
Spoiler

Christian Bale's John Connor was just NOT compelling to me. He had like three moments where he was genuinely inspirational, and one moment when he showed he knew something about machines, and played Generic Commando for the rest of the film. Give me Thomas Dekker any day. Seriously, he simply rants like a crazy person for the whole film. I sided with the resistance leaders, he acted like a dangerous loose cannon with a giant entitlement streak. Of the Terminator films, the only John Connor I can stand remains Furlong's. The Marcus Wright character was much more interesting, and he's probably dead now, so that doesn't bode well for T5 and T6 IMO. (On the plus side, Bale's Connor is apparently immune to radiation and helicopter crashes.)

Moon Bloodgood's character was not given sufficient motivation to risk her life busting Marcus out of the stronghold. They really tried, but did not pull it off. She also had nothing to do at the end, which was really obvious...they even tell her to get back on air support but then she disappears till the end.

When Kyle Reese was recognized in line at Skynet, but grabbed and imprisoned instead of killed, I said to myself "Wow, there must be a GIGANTIC twist coming." No. Skynet's big plan was to get Reese and Connor in a room with two Terminators, which happened to adjoin a room with a rebellious cyborg. In other words, the fact that Reese was not immediately machine-gunned is simply a GIGANTIC FUCKING PLOTHOLE. Skynet has nothing to lose and everything to gain by this...either Connor never existed and it probably wins (according to data from OTL Reese), or else they are in an alternate timeline and Skynet kills its 10 millionth 17-year old kid. It can then simply have Marcus feed Connor false data about Reese's location and whereabouts. A second plothole occurs, of course, when Skynet doesn't simply devote all of its effort into killing Reese, Connor, and Wright as soon as the three start managing to fight back. Detonate a nuke in the complex just like you did at the beginning of the movie! Can't do that? Fire a nuke from a missile silo somewhere! Can't do that? Have an HK destroy the building! Can't do that? Activate all those T-600 prison guards and have them storm the building! Can't do that? Kamikaze your giant transport planes into the building! Can't do that? Have the T-800 detonate the explosives that Connor himself planted! Don't spend the whole movie telling me that Reese and Connor are "target number 1 and 2" when it then does such a half-assed job trying to kill them in its own central complex.

Aside from all that, I quite enjoyed the movie. The end sequence is phenomenally shot and staged despite the issues above. The whole film is pretty beautiful and has a lot of great moments. Doesn't stand with T1 and T2 though.

[MKSheppard]

Spoiler

On the plus side, Bale's Connor is apparently immune to radiation and helicopter crashes

Um, contrary to what you might think, being near a nuke doesn't mean LOL INSTANT DEATH.

For a 25 kiloton device; you only really have to worry about prompt (instanteous) radiation from the initation that much; the 1,000 rad zone extends out to only 1,300 meters, while the 100 rad zone is out to 1,700 meters; and the 10 rad zone out to 2,200 meters.

By contrast; the thermal pulse causes third degree burns out to 2,500 meters. Connor wasn't suffering from those, and if he was extracted from the zone before fallout could begin arriving; his radiation exposure would be minimal.

In other words, the fact that Reese was not immediately machine-gunned is simply a GIGANTIC FUCKING PLOTHOLE.

Or perhaps after three repeated failures, Skynet is taking the belt and suspenders approach -- they not only want to take out John Connor, but also Kyle Reese, the entire Resistance Leadership; and kill a lot of the resistance in that region in a futile assault against Skynet's central compound for that region under the guise of a "shut down code" that isn't.

Secondly, killing Kyle Reese won't erase Connor. He just sends someone else back to save Sarah ten years from 2018, and even terminating Connor himself doesn't ensure the resistance automatically fails -- he got killed in 2032 in the Terminator 3 Timeline, yet the resistance continued. So I can't blame skynet for wanting to get all of it's ducks in a row; after failing so badly on the last couple of great white hopes.

Hell, in the T:SCC alternate verse; there's a resistance without John Connor from the beginning! (the series finale).

Detonate a nuke in the complex just like you did at the beginning of the movie!

Except that this isn't a podunk research facility out in the middle of nowhere that's easily expendable. It's a major hub for Skynet -- it might even be one of the first hubs Skynet constructed post-Judgement Day.

[Anguirus]

Spoiler

Um, contrary to what you might think, being near a nuke doesn't mean LOL INSTANT DEATH.

I think nothing of the kind. I do think Connor was extremely close to that blast, and right after he was evaced flaming debris starting raining down on the same position. His chopper was in the air for like 30 seconds before the blast occurred and killed everyone he had just left underground.

By contrast; the thermal pulse causes third degree burns out to 2,500 meters. Connor wasn't suffering from those, and if he was extracted from the zone before fallout could begin arriving; his radiation exposure would be minimal.

I see no reason whatsoever why he shouldn't be suffering from those burns, in that case. I can't figure out any way he could have gotten 2.5 km away from a nuke that instantly killed all the men that we saw in the same scene.

Or perhaps after three repeated failures, Skynet is taking the belt and suspenders approach -- they not only want to take out John Connor, but also Kyle Reese, the entire Resistance Leadership; and kill a lot of the resistance in that region in a futile assault against Skynet's central compound for that region under the guise of a "shut down code" that isn't.

Secondly, killing Kyle Reese won't erase Connor. He just sends someone else back to save Sarah ten years from 2018, and even terminating Connor himself doesn't ensure the resistance automatically fails -- he got killed in 2032 in the Terminator 3 Timeline, yet the resistance continued. So I can't blame skynet for wanting to get all of it's ducks in a row; after failing so badly on the last couple of great white hopes.

None of this gives Skynet a reason not to kill Reese. There is literally no point to keeping him alive, and there may be a significant benefit to killing him. If nothing else it would give JC an existential crisis, and he didn't exactly start out stable. It also overlooks the fact that Skynet tries to kill him at the end of the film (with a T-600, which I grant should have been sufficient).

Except that this isn't a podunk research facility out in the middle of nowhere that's easily expendable. It's a major hub for Skynet -- it might even be one of the first hubs Skynet constructed post-Judgement Day.

I don't buy it. "Target #1 and #2," remember? Why go to all the trouble of bringing them to a place that you aren't willing to blow up? Especially since the facility is destroyed and Skynet is still able to operate. I'm not even a military genius supercomputer and I now that blowing up the complex with Connor and Reese inside is better than letting it blow up with neither of them inside.

Skynet went very Generic Movie Villain at the end, complete with gloating. Hell, it would have won the movie if it had kept Wright insensate for two more minutes, or just installed a Do Not Damage Yourself program. Or if it had used TWO T-800s, or indeed used any greater amount of force than it did.

[SylasGaunt]

Spoiler

The nuke seemed like an underground burst to me. I'm pretty sure you can see the explosion come from the hole briefly before Connor's chopper goes down, depending on how deep the bomb was supposed to be, and how big it was that would probably considerably tone down the blast effects.

[CDiehl]

Spoiler

In other words, the fact that Reese was not immediately machine-gunned is simply a GIGANTIC FUCKING PLOTHOLE.

Actually, Skynet comes off in this movie like a cross between Palpatine and a Bond villain. When Skynet was explaining its plan to Marcus, I said to myself "everything that has transpired has done so according to my desire." Also, when it futzed around with getting rid of Reese when it had him in its clutches, I kept thinking about how Skynet sure loves to take the long way to do something.

[Gerald Tarrant]

I loved it but
Spoiler

I was a little disappointed with the final showdown between Connor and the Arnie-bot, a lot of tossing around and only mildly effective punches. The termie only fights smart when faced with Marcus Wright iirc it's HUD identified his heart as "vulnerable". And it KO's him immediately. It seemed frankly silly that the T-800 wouldn't be as clinically effective against the primary resistance leader. I'd contrast the T-800's hand-to-hand ineffectiveness in this movie with Arnie's quick kill in T-1 (45 second mark) Here. They can kill very quickly in hand-to-hand when needed. It was a bit of a plausibility lapse, although otherwise it was a lot of fun.

[Anguirus]

^ Yeah, I'll second that, and the way Marcus recovered was also wonky.

[AMT]

^ Yeah, I'll second that, and the way Marcus recovered was also wonky.

I still find it amusing that Spoiler

Not only are they able to perform a heart transplant in open air conditions, but Marcus was somehow an exact match for John.

[SylasGaunt]

Spoiler

While it's pushing it a bit to have him live through it.. well if he's gonna die anyway why not go for it?

Of course given that this is a series full of time traveling robots, giant stompy death mechs, homicidal motorcycles who hate guns n' roses, and loopy AIs I can give a wonky heart transplant a pass.

[Ghost Rider]

Now that particular bit of nitpicking I agree with Sylas. Especially in light of what the entire movie was setting up. But in the end, it didn't detract much.

Though I am wondering a few things that Shep liked. I believe it is likely around the whole fact the Resistance, while hodgepodge, is more a military then it has ever been alluded to. I simply enjoyed the fact they had an airforce and artillery and what not. It wasn't just hicks with laser rifles.

[Bilbo]

Spoiler

Saw the movie last night and enjoyed it.

The nuke could not have been that large. The Machines had two goals, they wanted the hybrid out and they wanted the fake "off" signal out. The nuke was really only there to make it look like the Machines didnt want the info to get out. With this in mind its easy to assume they used a really small nuke.

Bale doing the "I'll be back" line was great.

How did the Machines even know what a young Kyle Reece looks like or that he is important? I assume they have some fragmented information on the past and future and this is guiding their actions. Since Kyle is identified but not killed I can only assume that the Machines know he is important but do not know why he is important. Would have been better though for them to change things and have the Termies look at him and register him as merely "unknown civilian / owrk unworthy" with a schedule for termination date of a few days. Same tension, less confusion.

Who needs dogs? Magnetic mines seem to work fine for picking out Marcus. So why would the Resistance fear infiltrators? you just lay a bunch around base, or use bog standard metal detectors on anyone who comes in. Though its possible that equipment becomes harder and harder to come by as the war progresses.

Loved seeing the A-10's in action.

The T-800 had emotions to at least a limited degree and a sadistic streak. No other explanation for why Connor was not dead in a second. The T-800 had his victim inside the Skynet complex and felt he had time to be sadistic with him. Though the T-800 is also inexperienced and cocky, once Marcus shows up the T-800 should have said enough is enough and snapped Conners neck at first opportunity.

[Thanas]

Now that particular bit of nitpicking I agree with Sylas. Especially in light of what the entire movie was setting up. But in the end, it didn't detract much.

Though I am wondering a few things that Shep liked. I believe it is likely around the whole fact the Resistance, while hodgepodge, is more a military then it has ever been alluded to. I simply enjoyed the fact they had an airforce and artillery and what not. It wasn't just hicks with laser rifles.

It should however be noted that even in T2, they already had uniforms, bunkers and behaved in a military manner (salutes, coming to attention etc).

[Gerald Tarrant]

Spoiler

How did the Machines even know what a young Kyle Reece looks like or that he is important? I assume they have some fragmented information on the past and future and this is guiding their actions. Since Kyle is identified but not killed I can only assume that the Machines know he is important but do not know why he is important. Would have been better though for them to change things and have the Termies look at him and register him as merely "unknown civilian / owrk unworthy" with a schedule for termination date of a few days. Same tension, less confusion.

I have a couple of guesses for that. Marcus was intermittently transmitting and the machines were matching a face to the name that Marcus gets; that would suggest that one of many good things Wright did was identify Reece in the first place. It makes me wonder if they had a rough idea of where Reece was hiding out when they set Wright loose.

My second guess is that skynet managed to piece together lots of un-destroyed data from pre-Judgment day; including either family pictures that it electronically aged to present day Reece, or surviving police records from T-1 era that it reverse aged (also accounting for the change in actors =P).

The T-800 had emotions to at least a limited degree and a sadistic streak. No other explanation for why Connor was not dead in a second. The T-800 had his victim inside the Skynet complex and felt he had time to be sadistic with him. Though the T-800 is also inexperienced and cocky, once Marcus shows up the T-800 should have said enough is enough and snapped Conners neck at first opportunity.

I'm not delighted by that explanation. It makes skynet look more and more like a mustache twirling caricature. Coupled with that exposition with Wright, it just detracts from the terrifying inhumanity of the machines; it's a laughable flaw that I hope they don't repeat if they finish up the franchise.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I haven't seen but, Jesus, it's being slammed by reviews. Most people say it's better than T3 and yet it's getting such abysmal ratings. On that note, how the fuck did T3 get 70%?? I sure hope TS is heavily underrated here. I'll be seeing it tomorrow night.

[Thanas]

Roger Ebert didn't have a lot of kind things to say about this movie:

One of Hollywood's oldest axioms teaches us: The story comes first. Watching "Terminator Salvation," it occurred to me that in the new Hollywood, the storyboard comes first. After scrutinizing the film, I offer you my summary of the story: Guy dies, finds himself resurrected, meets others, fights. That lasts for almost two hours.

The action scenes, which is to say, 90 percent of the movie, involve Armageddon between men and machines 10 years in the future. The film's most cheerful element is that they've perfected artificial intelligence so quickly. Yes, Skynet is self-aware and determines to wipe out humankind for reasons it doesn't explain. A last-ditch resistance is being led by John Connor, or "J.C." for you Faulkner fans.

Christian Bale plays the role of Connor, in a movie that raises many questions about the lines between man and machine. Raises them, and then leaves them levitating. However, it has many fights between a humanoid cyborg and robotic Skynet men made of steel. How do these antagonists fight? Why, with their fists, of course, which remains a wonderfully cinematic device. They also shoot at each other, to little effect. In fact, one metal man is covered in molten ore and then flash-frozen, and keeps on tickin'. And listen, Skynet buddies, what Bale thought about that cameraman is only the tip of the iceberg compared to what he thinks about you.

There is nothing visible in this world but a barren wasteland. No towns, no houses, no food, no farms, no nothing. Maybe they live on Spam. The resistance is run from a submarine commanded by Gen. Ashdown (Michael Ironside), who wants to destroy Skynet and all of its human POWs. Connor, who is not even human, vows to save them. Wait. That's Marcus Wright (Sam Worthington), the guy from the past, who looks so much like Connor that maybe he only thinks he's Wright. Marcus is a convicted murderer from the past, awakened from cryogenic sleep.

I know with a certainty approaching dread that all of my questions will be explained to me in long detailed messages from "Terminator" experts. They also will charge me with not seeing the movie before I reviewed it. Believe me, I would have enjoyed traveling forward through time for two hours, starting just before I saw the movie. But in regard to the answers to my questions: You know what? I don't care.

The first "Terminator" movie I regret (I suppose) I did not see. "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" (1991) was a fairly terrific movie, set in the (then) future, to prevent the nuclear holocaust of 1997. You remember that. It was about something. In it, Edward Furlong was infinitely more human as John Connor than
Christian Bale is in this film.

Schwarzenegger, indeed, reappears in this fourth film, thanks to a body double and a special-effects face, which makes him, I think, a cyborg of a cyborg. His famous line "I'll be back" is uttered by one John Connor or another, and I hope it draws more chuckles than it did at the screening I attended. Why, those immortal words are chiseled into granite, or at least into the lobby floor at the AMC River East theaters.

If there is one wholly sympathetic character, that would be Blair Williams, played by the fragrant Moon Bloodgood. She murmurs some tender words at the 45-minute mark, representing the most complex dialogue up to that point. Dr. Serena Kogan (Helena Bonham Carter) has a longer speech, but you can't be sure it's really her, and she may have been lying.

Anyway, most of the running time is occupied by action sequences, chase sequences, motorcycle sequences, plow-truck sequences, helicopter sequences, fighter-plane sequences, towering android sequences and fistfights. It gives you all the pleasure of a video game without the bother of having to play it.

I am feeling less than optimistic now.