Are christians more inclined to believe fringe?

[hawkwind]

Well,
I m debating two or couple more these guys. Aparently the discussion went from politics to religion, christianity comes on, which makes me point out that it really isnt religion of love and why, together with pointing out the evils of church as the instituion.
I m pretty sure that neither of these guys is practicing christian,but both have strong "pro christian feelings" but the debate eventually destiles to textbook examples of sociopathy, intelectuall cowardice, moving of the goalposts and several thing I wouldnt call compatible with modern ethics.
This for example includes statement : "It is logical to kill (for god) three year old kid with cancer in order to punish the parents.
- I called that one and asked for explanation why would it be logical to kill innocent kid with such horrible death in order to do so and was told something like : "Its OK not cancer then, let it be something quick and relativelly painless like car accident, that is ok." I couldnt believe it, so I asked to clarify again and was told that : "It is about parents and that the kid is irrelevant."

However, more to come - one of the guys started to tell me that "science isnt solution to everything" - which he demosntrated by telling me that due to bad research on antibiotics in chicken production, chicken meat for long time contained antibiotics, hence science is wrong. He failed to explain how religiosity would offer a solution to said problem or comment on fact that it was eventually found out that it is happening and our knowledge pool updated.

This took quick hyperbolle to several more "facts" (and I hsit you not the guy is working in pharmaceutic insdustry)

- Reiki and akupuncture works and are real
- Reincarnation is real
- The description of "god made a man oout of mad" is methaporhic (yeees creationism on th move here) and the god had literally made a man (life) out of "materie of the planet)
- Mysterious energies which science cannot measure but are real
- Telepathy is real since soviets experimented on it in 60´during beginning of the space program
- Imunisation (shots) are harmfull (wonderfull pointer to Randalls book)
- Nobody knows if first man in spae was Gagarin or Tupolev

Etc...

Now, there is a pattern develloping. I know at least one of those guys in real life and he is really nice chap and I wouldnt have ever took him for a truther, but it looks to me like christians and the religious believers are far more inclined to believe any bulshit they are told, once it contains correct dose of irrationality.

Your experiences?

J.

[hawkwind]

Sorry for spelling, I should have checked. It is difficult for me to concentrate on how I write, when I concetrate on what I write. English is my 4 language.
J.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I think it's to be expected. Being religious at all requires a lack of skepticism.

[Eleas]

I don't think it's usually that simple. Christians of traditional denominations seem to believe in the need for a strong central authority (the highest, i.e. God) and their own place within the ensuing hierarchy. It's an authoritarian mindset.

To my experience, while belief in fringe science-based superstition does represent a penchant for wishful thinking, the impulse is almost the opposite to that of followers of authoritarian religions. Fringe science believers don't want to follow rules, preferring to go by the gut; if an explanation "feels" wrong, it is wrong, and only ghosts/aliens/government conspiracies/whatever could possibly be the real answer. In short, I believe New Agers reject science because it represents structured thought. Religion, being a lot more nebulous and open to interpretation, is less of a problem in that regard, but offers its own absolutes which New Agers would find equally disagreeable.

Mind you, a central tenet of the GOP also seem to believe in "going by the gut" as a valid paradigm, so I suppose it's not really that incompatible with religious thinking when it comes down to it.

[Oskuro]

Actually, and this is just personal opinion, followers of an autoritarian mindset might have a big problem with the whole peer-review concept of science. Religious followers have been trained to accept dogma without question, so the idea that scientific theories can be overturned through new evidence probably translates as a weakness in their minds.

Then, fringe science swoops in, often defending its theories as dogma, and more importanly, blaming the "establishment" for not being open to alternatives. This surely resonates with the religious mindset wich has always praised innocence (ignorance), and leaps of faith rather than informed choice.

Another point might be that a lot of devout believers happen to not be completely stupid, and realize that their belief is based on a fairy tale. For them, science is the enemy that will eventually make their castle of cards tumble, so embracing theories that both support their beliefs, and attack mainstream science, is convenient to say the least.

[TheLostVikings]

- Reiki and akupuncture works and are real

Well my experiences are quite similar to yours, but I just felt it necessary to add that some forms of acupuncture are most definitively real. And then I mean real as in passed double blind tests with ease, and we have a decent scientific understanding of exactly how they work.

Mainly talking about using it to replace anesthetics (the needles target neural receptors that stimulates endorphin production afaik), which is available at every hospital where I live. And using it to combat allergies are starting to get pretty well accepted as well, despite the exact mechanisms on why it works aren't as well known as the anesthetic ones.

But otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[PainRack]

Depends. I also known christians who believe in the full blooze about YECs, creationism and etc, but would reject accupuncture and faith healing.

Its not as if we haven't seen news articles here from the Catholic Church condemning alternative medicine based on it being superstitious nonsense:D

[Darth Wong]

I don't think it's usually that simple. Christians of traditional denominations seem to believe in the need for a strong central authority (the highest, i.e. God) and their own place within the ensuing hierarchy. It's an authoritarian mindset.

That's part of it, but there is also an undeniable tendency to see patterns and intent where they do not exist. The entire religion is predicated upon that particular trait, after all. So many arguments against conspiracy theories and superstitions are difficult to make to a religion person because the underlying logic, if applied consistently, refutes Christianity with the same brush. And they can't have that.

[hawkwind]

"Telepathy is real" argument aside, the debate had taken certain foreseable turn.
It started about politics, with recent creationist surge here. Hence there was classic discussion whatever creationism is science etc. - which took me some time to debunk and describe examples why. Afterwards it was : "but the christians (religious people) are more moral and have stronger ethical founding", which I proceded to rip into shreds as previous argument and now it is : "I dont care what science or everybody says, I care only for my "personal spiritual experience".
- which is sort of huge goalpost moving from things which you can measure and test to those you can observe, finally (and for sure withy sly victorious smile) to things you cannot neither measure nor observe, but you must "experience".

Other talking points included : "Its OK for god to punish parents by murdering their own kid, since kid goes right to heaven, so its good for him" and my favorite : "evolution cannot work due to second law of thermodynamics"

Madonna mia!

J.

[Mayabird]

I wonder how much of it is just a generally lower education coupled with a distrust of anything reeking of educated thought. They don't know enough to understand why this fringe stuff is bullshit, but when educated scientists say that it's bullshit they're disinclined to believe them.

[Covenant]

- Reiki and akupuncture works and are real

Well my experiences are quite similar to yours, but I just felt it necessary to add that some forms of acupuncture are most definitively real. And then I mean real as in passed double blind tests with ease, and we have a decent scientific understanding of exactly how they work.

Mainly talking about using it to replace anesthetics (the needles target neural receptors that stimulates endorphin production afaik), which is available at every hospital where I live. And using it to combat allergies are starting to get pretty well accepted as well, despite the exact mechanisms on why it works aren't as well known as the anesthetic ones.

But otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I also agree that accupressure techniques seem entirely legitimate. It's not magic and you can't cure cancer with it, but for the alteration of a few sensations such as removing a headache or such, it can provide some results which I've seen to be testable and predictable. There's lots of ailments that affect people which are really not a big deal, and some of these folk remedies are effective enough to solve them. The great success in Western Medicine is not greater success rate in treating headaches or allergy symptoms, but in curing massive life-threatening diseases, wounds, and complicated trauma.

But yeah, as you get more religious, it opens the door to other forms of spirituality. Crystals, magic, etc. Why do you think it's the devout who freak out the most about ouija boards and the idea someone is hexing them?

[haard]

Well acupuncture works... just as good as getting pricked by toothpicks in random places.
Several studies have shown this, and this is a recent one on lower back pain.

OT: I think religion and fringe science has the same prerequisites - ignore Occam, scientific studies and evidence, prefer leap of faith and personal anecdotes.

[Majin Gojira]

To the topic question:

Yes.

Hell Yes.

In my catholic high school, one of the classes I had on World Religion included a lot of crazy-stupid fringe crap on top of it such as Psychics. Then example mircales in modern times were shown towards the end.

Interesting class, but wackaloo.

[Themightytom]

I was just about to post on this topic when I noticed you already did it, so I will add what I was going to ask in onto this thread. I just overheard a similar debate between a Historian/ eight year college student and a preschool teacher. The conversation began with the preschool teacher disclosing she had just come from a "prophetic training".

I like the girl well enough so I decided not to engage in this one because there was no way I could politely get clarification on that. Historian however did. They chatted and ultimately it came out aht he has been getting into Chi Gong and Reiki. The discussion lurched along in a rapid succession of bullshit being pulled from his ass regarding what Reiki was what Chi gong was, in response to arguments she appeared to be repeating out of context from something she had heard. BOTH of them were discussing fringe elements, one of fringe elements in Christianity ie: developing prophetic ability and he was elaborating on how he believed that using Reiki energy was like using a tool, which is a neutral thing that could be USED for either good or evil.

His argument was infuriating because he defined Chinese conception of energy as a tool. if a tool is an object in the physical world than it is neither good nor evil. The Church frowns on Reiki because it is viewed as an attempt to control the world around you (magic) which is seen as contrary to trusting in God and his plan. He was attempting to demonstrate a pattern of validity through a number of half formed examples in the exact manner Mike describes (Except I don’t think he actually buys into them, he was just caught up in the discussion.
*He compared Reiki to the healing acts of Thomas Aquinas, stating “in the catholic faith there are instances of healers, using such energy, I could imitate that properly trained”

He knows damn well that according to the church the Saints don’t have supernatural powers, the miracles are from God, the Saints are themselves the tools, this indicates their sainthood when they are canonized. Apparently he forgot he also has a minor in theology.

His use of tools as metaphor was somewhat infuriating because a concept is NOT a tool. A physical object has no intellectual validity, but a concept certainly does. For him to say “The concept of energy is a tool. It is neither good nor evil” was embarrassingly ludicrous, but it illustrates half formed ideas being strung together into a pattern of belief.

Her side of the debate was that Faith calls one to trust and that Reiki is an attempt to manipulate the world and to give supernatural power to an individual. I’m sorry, how would YOU describe “Prophetic training” She said straight up it was an attempt to discern God’s plan for us, to predict the future.” She elaborated on meditational practices of discernment that would lead to this.

This conversation lead me on a two-hour Google search for a sociological comparison of the terms “Magic” Religion” and Science. It is my understanding from a religion in Society class, that magic is an effort to control the supernatural world through ritual. Religion is a systematic pattern of beliefs and rituals that frame a belief in the supernatural world and include rituals for control through an intermediary. Praying to god to do X Y or Z is an example.
Science is the rational attempt through experimentation to understand the physical world, engineering is the derivative of science to control the physical world.

The chief differences between conceptions of magic and science vs science and engineering is that the former deals with the supernatural, the latter deals with the physical. I cannot for the life of me find anything but the textbook I was given in class to support these conceptions however.

Unless someone on here can find decent sources, I will surrender them to their ridiculousness because I can’t just walk up to them and drop a textbook in their laps. It’s just not subtle.

[Superman]

Look, it's really no coincidence that fundies are often the exact same paranoid people who believe in conspiracy bullshit, have a general distrust of society, don't want The Man vaccinating their kids, etc. When you meet someone with these kinds of cooky ideas, it's because they're cooks. It's not so much of a matter of Christians being more likely to be on the fringe, it's more like an issue nutty people just being predictably nutty.