Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

[Vehrec]

Isn't clorophil normally green?

On earth, the energy-absorbing/converting organelles in plants are green. On a different planet, with a different light spectrum hitting the surface, that could easily change.

Point of order here man. Chlorophyll is green on earth because the specific sub-varieties used by our lifeforms process life in the blue and red ends of the spectrum fairly well, but have a problem absorbing green light. Any molecule identical enough to these to be called Chlorophyll would also be greenish in color. There are other photo-pigments possible, chemically speaking, but none of those would be chlorophylls. There is also the issue that of all the photo-pigments I know of, chrolophyll is nearly ideal for the process of photosynthesis. It might not be ubiqueous, but it should not be uncommon.

[Darth Hoth]

Again, not being a native speaker myself, I might not be the best judge of it, of course.

So why do you try to convince me otherwise?

Oh, I am only trying to contribute to the discussion, as best I can with my limited knowledge of your beautiful language. It sounded like you were singling out Kratman's writing as exceptionally bad in this regard, which in my humble opinion it is not.

[Thanas]

It is, it reads like he dropped a few words through google translator. "Kriegseconomie", for example, is horrible wrong.

[Darth Hoth]

Oh, they'd want out. I don't see the government accepting cowardice as a decent rationale. Doesn't work.

It depends on how seriously they take the threat, I suppose, and how much wishful thinking there is. Also, Germany has a lot of emotional baggage when it comes to the military that will without doubt come into play here.

They do. They mention that they want to burn through the troopers and the recruits- kill them all essentially. Of course the fact they are given the superheavy tanks doesn't fit quite well. That and the fact that there is nothing different about these troopers and the normal army troopers

Those were the original premises their corps was set up under. The Chancellor later subverted them, without parliamentary approval.

I thought shotguns were the weapons for those with no cash in the Posleen horde?

It varies; the poorest have few even of those and most of their men armed with the swords, if I recall correctly (I think it was stated in Yellow Eyes).

He feels really bad about the Second World War and tries to make amends. Ad to do that he procedes to do exactly what he did in the Second World War. It isn't innaccurate as he is a soldier- it is just hilariously ironic. He ends up in Israel, fighting the Syrians because of it.

I think that you are mixing up Mühlenkampf and Brasche, here.

The Posleen have historians, a culture, retirement and a sense of ceremony. It is sort of sad a species that is overwhelming made of non-sentient members is the most fleshed out of all the alien groups. I didn't get further in the series- anyone know what else they add?

Kratman in Watch does the best portrayal of the Posleen that I have read; the Ringo books basically have them as zombies and fodder. Watch out for Yellow Eyes, though; the Posleen portrayal there is very off, and from all signs it will be even more so in Tuloriad.

[Darth Hoth]

It is, it reads like he dropped a few words through google translator. "Kriegseconomie", for example, is horrible wrong.

I know (though our original discussion was about names). I seem to recall some other oddities too, that would send Shep into a berserker rage (such as mixing up the Iron Cross classes). Still, I would argue that he is not particularly bad, as far as genre standards for military science fiction go. If you want to read some really mangled German, you might check out Stirling (infamous for the Draka series, among others).

[Darth Hoth]

Anyways the SS versus the protestors. Things bog down to melee, the commander passes out after being whacked over the head and remembers being sent to a camp as a guard and immediately requesting reassignment to the front. Either empathy or bloodthirstyness.

It was rather clear which it was in the book, I think. Especially since Brasche is the overall "Good German" figure.

The boys waded in, an unstoppable mass of swinging clubs, smashing fists, and stomping boots. Those who fell before them were given no quarter, but kicked senseless, in some cases to death. Singing among the first groups stopped to be replaced quickly by sobbing, shrieking and begging Reds and Greens.

"No mercy, boys!" shouted Krueger, exultantly if unnecessarily. "Break their bones!"

... They are beating unarmed protestors to death.

In their defense, it was rather a violent demonstration to start with. More riot than peaceful protest.

Back to the Posleen we learn about their history with the ancients. They came, they taught, and the Posleen rebeled because they feelt oppressed

"The people who asked, the Knowers, complained, 'The planets you have given to us cannot support our growing population.' The Aldenat' answered, 'We know, and you know not.'

"They said they knew, and they knew not."

I give Kratman props for this. Unlike Ringo he doesn't have all his women- most of whom are army troops- have big boobs and long hair.

You will hate Yellow Eyes, then . . .

Sometimes, though, Krueger told of other things, vile things. This Brasche loathed, as indeed he loathed the man.

"It was great, I tell you, boys. Great. Your pick of the women in those camps. And some of them were lookers, too, even if they were just Jew bitches."

"How did you end up in one of the camps?" asked Schüler. "I thought you were a combat soldier."

"Well, I was only there for about six months, you see. While I was healing up from being shot by the Russians. At Ravensbrück, it was. A women's camp. There were so many we never even asked their names."

Once again, why was this man not strung up by the Red Army?

He was probably on the Western Front at the end, and shirked out of Denazification post-war, when the Americans turned over the job to German courts. That was rather easy, actually; I, Shep and others have lamented at various points how easily various war criminals got away after the war. In Krueger's case, this does stretch suspension of disbelief a little, though, given how . . . blatant he is about his various crimes.

[Samuel]

In their defense, it was rather a violent demonstration to start with. More riot than peaceful protest.

I'm sure the press will feel that way.

You will hate Yellow Eyes, then . . .

I don't have a problem with boobs- just every single female soldier being well stacked. Doesn't Kratman only do that AI like that, as per hack writer tradition?

Also, on topic for Posleen it seems as if there is no unified planetary defense- each individual nation protects only itself, the forces of Europe were training and ignoring the fact that Southern Asia was being over-run, etc. There appears to be no general human unity which is odd, aside from fleet and the planetary defense network especially since it doesn't appear to be a product of Darhel subversion. Everyone seems to be operating on the desire to protect their country first and ignore the rest of humanity.

[PeZook]

I also find it funny that all European countries are walking stereotypes: the French are done by "wishful thinking", and Poles have somehow been neutered by "communist inefficiency and corruption". As with the goddamned bleeding heart German antiwar protesters: how could they be so goddamned stupid with a ravaged America to prove that yes, the aliens ARE coming to eat all your fucking babies?

[Samuel]

And now, back to shooting things.

Chapter 7
The lines are holding, but in one place and the Panzers are sent to patch it. Snipers and artillary open up, followed by machine guns and this

A knot of twenty Posleen, perhaps as much trying to avoid the worst of the shell and machine gun fire as to close with the humans, activated a Barbie. The mine used a small, integral antigravity device to lift itself one meter into the air. It then put out a linear force field to a distance of six meters. Eleven Posleen fell immediately, alive but legless, their stumps waving helplessly in the air while they shrieked and sprayed yellow ichor into the air and onto the ground.

Its work done for the nonce, the force field shut off to conserve power even as the mine's antigravity propelled it sideways to cover another small piece of the front. Amidst the yellow blood, the mine's yellow plastic casing quickly became indistinguishable.

Than we get more yammering about the evil left and then finally antimatter tipped shells.

It was possible, with the device, to dial a given amount, up to roughly thirty percent of the antimatter contained in the primary field, into the secondary. Any greater amount would destroy the primary and create a very large, antimatter-driven, explosion. But with the lesser, the primary field would hold even as the projectile, now given a substantial boost by the lesser explosion, drove through the far wall of the enemy lander. A timer would detonate the remaining antimatter when it was high enough not to appreciably affect the Earth.

There was, of course, the possibility of having all the antimatter go off in a single cosmic catastrophe. This, of course, might well affect the Earth and the people who, in ever diminishing numbers, populated it.

That sounds extremely unsafe- how much anti-matter do they have?

Although there was no sound, the antigravity created a feeling in those caught below like unto a mix of nausea and the sense of having millions of ants crawling over one's body...
Caught in the sickening field, Brasche resisted the desperate urge to scratch. Dieter Schultz's friend Harz could not resist the need to vomit. Soon, despite the efforts of the Tiger's air cleaners, the vile aroma of human puke filled the fighting bay. That odor initiated a chain reaction. Soon Brasche looked down upon a crew of quietly cursing, frantically scratching, and intermittently vomiting men.

Anti-gravity screws with the human body.

"Achtung! Panzer! Boys, crank 'em and turn 'em around one hundred and eighty degrees. We're going to follow these bastards, shooting them in the ass all the way, until none are left. Kill them from the rearmost forward. Kill them as you bear."

They wait for the Posleen to pass and fire into their backs. Due to poor enemy coordination they get a second shot. And a third...

Chapter 8

The intelligence officer turned from his weapons station to face Brasche. "Herr Oberst, the battalion has taken out forty-nine, so far. But all panzers report the same: there are no more to be found ahead."
...
The strain in the company commander's voice was palpable, even over the radio. "Battalion this is Number One Company . . . Number one to Battalion. Enemy here . . . Too many to . . . Scheisse, Scheisse, Scheisse!36 . . . Turn this damned tank arou—"

They kill a bunch than the Posleen counter attack some of their tanks. The tankers respond by drawing them into an ambush. Also, Dieters girlfriend gets killed, along with other civilians and routing troopers.

[K. A. Pital]

In the East, it was rather common on both sides (death tolls for POWs being in the multiple tens of per cent on either side).

A minor correction: ~19% dead (most of them - in 1942 straigh after Stalingrad, when severe hunger and lack of provision beset Russia - first and foremost as a consequence of the German invasion nothing less) versus over 50% killed, mostly as a result of deliberate genocide policy - that's quite a different outcome. Axis POWs had a far higher chance to survive in Russian captivity than on active duty. It was vice-versa for the Soviet POWs... active duty had more survival chances, per man, than German captivity.

That aside, the book is a horrifically bad right-wing panegyric about reviving the SS, coming with the full 'nur soldat' and 'idiot loony greenies, lefties and pacifists, brave SS man HUR HUR HUR' crap, loads and loads of it. It's actually fun to read, some sort of an insight into the mind of a militaristic jingoist, and the kind of bad fiction such a mind can create.

[Thanas]

^If you have got nothing better to do with your time...
I mean, I'd rather suffer through all contemporary german literature before I ever touch that piece of idiocy...

[Samuel]

It's actually fun to read, some sort of an insight into the mind of a militaristic jingoist, and the kind of bad fiction such a mind can create.

Sadly the most horrific part of the story was not designed by Kratman (at least I think it was Ringo's since it concerns the direction of the series). Honestly, I could do superdickery style "Batman isn't gay""They aren't Nazis" for this, but it just speaks for itself so well.

Chapter 9

Each day brought new losses. The battalion dropped to eight Tigers, then seven. With each loss twenty-three valiant souls had flickered away in the wind.

Opps- this appears to be the actual crew complement.

Anyways, the Germans clean up the infestation and the French civilian population flee to the Maginot line. Really, why did the countries wait so long? They had from November 2004 to April 2005 to evacuate to safer places (Nov 2004 being the first landings).

But this was a desperate time. The Ghin was threatening to cut off bonuses, withdraw promised stock options, reduce salary . . . to drop the Tir's rank to de'Tir.

The Tir shivered, as much with the threatened disgrace as loss of income.

I'd like to point out that the Darhel's plan would have unraveled if but a single one of them decided the humans had a better offer. Now, most of the populance doesn't have convertable currency... just the people who the Darhel are paying. Which is the military who would be most interested in a double agent. Unless they have so racial loyalty, they should sell out as soon as they see the US military could pay them more.

Yet the only reward Günter had ever been promised had been the off-world evacuation of his family.

Gunter's reason for treason. Reasonable enough. Of course, having the families of the leading politicians go off world is... mildly suspicious.

Why, it was almost as if they took things personally!

War isn't personal for the Posleen.

Krueger answered, "You kill 'em when they run, boy. Give 'em no choice but to stand and fight. Hang the cowards—low or high—and let 'em kick and dance some if you have time. Shoot 'em otherwise." Krueger felt a little shiver of delight at an old memory—the kicking, jerking feet of a sixteen-year-old coward of a Volksgrenadier, cruelly suspended a mere foot or so above the ground, the noose placed behind the neck to make sure the boy could see how close salvation lay. The memory brought the same laugh Krueger had given off then, his joy in watching the coward's futile struggle undiminished by time.

Brasche nodded, hating to agree with Krueger but knowing that Schultz needed the lesson. "It's true, Dieter. The rot must be stopped as soon as it starts. Sometimes, if you train them right, the rot doesn't start for along time; maybe not until the war is over. But when you have as much rabble in uniform as Germany today has, you don't have much choice but to use harsh measures."
...
Each man of the mob—for that is what they were now—thought only safety, safety at the sight of the immovable mass of the Tigers. Each man was shocked quite speechless when that fortress-gate-of-security, mama's proffered—milk laden—breast, began to pour fire into those foremost in flight.

Some of the fugitives assumed, indeed had to assume, such was the innocence of their childhood upbringing, such had been the kidskin gloves approach to their military training, that the Mauser light cannon fire devastating the knots of those closest to the Tigers could only be a mistake. That was their mistake . . . and the last many of them ever made.

Anyway they open canister shot on the Posleen charge and obliterate with the God King in charge shocked.

Anyway we get to the courtmartials and they decide to decimate the survivors, 1 in 10 by hanging.

Being a good businessman, in Darhel mode—which is to say honest in all that could be seen, dishonest in all else,

That is how you become a good businessman. If they can't trust you, they have to watch you, which costs money. If they can trust you, the costs are lower- honesty can pay.

Why, WHY, WHY hadn't these damned Germans been like the French? A logical people, in so many ways, the French. And their politicians were so vain and easy to manipulate through flattery and feeding their paranoia. Damn the Germans to the Hell of their superstitions.

No comment.

Absently, his mind seething dangerously, the Tir used his inappropriate carnivore's teeth to rend sticks of vegetable matter placed on a tray before him. The food never really satisfied, but he, like all Darhel, was forbidden the animal protein he, and they, craved. Lintatai was the result of eating the forbidden foods.

Boredom and disgust was the result of feeding on the permissible.

Have you considered soy substitutes?

The replicators aboard the ships of the People had poured forth the mild intoxicants that only God Kings partook of, and they—as a rule—but sparingly.

They have replicators.

Chapter 10

The SS play SA for a day.

The shorter but more senior of the two answered, "The general reports that most suspect members of the Federal Legislature are under arrest, along with the A list of suspects within the Bundeswehr higher command echelons. In addition, leaders of the more radically antihuman of the political parties are almost entirely in the bag . . . Though some have already been executed . . . er, shot while escaping. Several dozen appear to have disappeared from Germany entirely, along with their families. The Darhel are not to be found either. Still, isolation of whatever Darhel may remain moves forward apace."

And they expand the SS alot and go... overboard on the militism:

In addition to acquiring another two panzer and four good motorized infantry Korps, as well as the penal division composed of the remnants of the more than decimated 33rd Korps, Mühlenkampf also assumed control of a large number of newly created foreign formations. Division Charlemagne marched again, in lock step with divisions and brigades of Latvians, Estonians, Poles, Spaniards and others.
...
Student deferments? Gone. Alternative service? Gone. Refusal to serve? Conscientious Objector status claimed? The Penal Formation once known as the 33rd Korps grew to meet and then exceed its former strength. And the hangmen were often kept quite busy.

Two hundred thousand of them came, mostly the very young. Yet there had been enough young men, and women, six or seven thousand, of an age to fight. And fight they most certainly wanted to. Yet how? With whom? There was only one group in the German military used to assimilating foreigners . . . yet that group?
Mühlenkampf had offered, promising them their own unit. He had asked quite humbly for this chance to make up, in however small part, for a sordid . . . nay, horrid . . . past. He had even sent Hans Brasche, the history of whom he knew, to talk to the refugees and to Benjamin.

"Yes, I must go," answered the Israeli. "My job is done here . . . but there is more I can do."

Understanding at his core, Breitenbach stepped back, looking Benjamin over from top to bottom. A small silver star of David graced the Israeli's right collar, the four pips of a major his left. Silver buttons held the tunic closed. A silver embroidered armband encircled his left sleeve, at the cuff.

The armband proclaimed, in silver letters, Hebrew and Roman, one above the other, "Judas Maccabeus."

The uniform was midnight black.

The Jewish wing of the SS scene. Must be seen to be believed.

[Junghalli]

Have you considered soy substitutes?

I don't think it's the chemicals in the meat that trigger the Lintatai, it's the emotions associated with eating it. The Aldenata designed the Lintatai to be triggered by the emotions associated with killing things, which the proto-Darhel got off on. Presumably eating meat triggers these emotions, and so would any substitute convincing enough to be satisfying. The Hero goes into some depth about how the Lintatai works.

Note: the same story has a more disciplined Darhel be able to eat meat and even hunt and survive, so it seems to vary based on the individual's self control. Even he had trouble with it though; the first time he killed an animal he almost killed himself from getting off on the psychic waves of it dying.

[PeZook]

You know, the premise of that book could work (What will humanity do to survive?) if the rejuved SS-men really were portrayed as bastards, rather than The Only Ones Who Do It Right. With the kind of shit the author's pulling here, it's rather obvious his premise is a smokescreen for Nazi apologism and wank.

Seriously, Tiger III?

He should've had the SS fight along other (competent) units. Hell, keep the scene of them beating protestors to death, but since the Posleen land shortly thereafter, Germany can't afford to disband a trained unit. Everybody should hate them, the SS characters should be a mix of Nazi bastards, lukewarm Hitler supporters and some Good German archetypes...they should be generally antipathic to the reader.

He could then explore the question of redemption, for example, having SS men save modern Germans they despise, they could commit offenses and war crimes which are let slide because Germany needs every warm body it can find etc.

Right now, it's obvious the book is an excuse to rant about those weak European fools who wouldn't fight to save humanity's collective ass, but would instead use student deferements to get out of military service

[Thanas]

^PeZook, that would require Kratman to have some talent.

[Darth Hoth]

A minor correction: ~19% dead (most of them - in 1942 straigh after Stalingrad, when severe hunger and lack of provision beset Russia - first and foremost as a consequence of the German invasion nothing less) versus over 50% killed, mostly as a result of deliberate genocide policy - that's quite a different outcome.

The policy to deny food to POWs was definitely more systematic on the German side - a strategic decision made in cold blood, so that there would be more food available to the German forces and home front. As for numbers, I have seen anything from twenty per cent mortality of German POWs to thirty or even higher in various sources. Are you using the official Soviet numbers?

That aside, the book is a horrifically bad right-wing panegyric about reviving the SS, coming with the full 'nur soldat' and 'idiot loony greenies, lefties and pacifists, brave SS man HUR HUR HUR' crap, loads and loads of it. It's actually fun to read, some sort of an insight into the mind of a militaristic jingoist, and the kind of bad fiction such a mind can create.

The SS in the book was supposed to be an allegory for the sacrifices a state makes in total war and how that changes its character. A premise that could actually have worked well even if it did humanise some of the Waffen-SS soldiers for an "inside perspective" - they were not all monsters, in spite of the organisation they fought for. Even having some character calling Mühlenkampf on some of his bullshit in the book as it stands would help a lot. Though the way Kratman handles it now, sadly it strays deep into Nazi apologism.

[K. A. Pital]

Are you using the official Soviet numbers?

The death rate has been calculated by GUVPI internee statistics, but since the Axis POWs were later re-patriated, it would be easy to check that against the repatriant claims, I doubt you'd get something else. So far this figure is considered all-around correct. Out of the 4 126 964 Axis POWs in Soviet captivity, 580,548 died according to records (14%), as for the Germans, 450,600 out of 2,389,560 POWs (19%). Notice how the German death rates are much higher relative to the overall POW number, due to almost all Stalingrad POWs - a whopping 90,000 - dying during the 1942 hunger.

In the GUVPI note on POW death rates during 1945, for example:
Month Death percentage
January 4,20%
February 3,80%
Mach 3,00%
...

And so on, the rate decreases - despite this being the time when the USSR captured the absolute majority of prisoners (well over 3,000,000 Axis POWs). Basically, it's a reverse of 1941. Were the USSR so willing, death rates would've been much higher.

The policy to deny food to POWs was definitely more systematic on the German side - a strategic decision made in cold blood, so that there would be more food available to the German forces and home front.

Halder testified in 1945 that Hitler on a special OKH meeting before the start of Barbarrossa specifically ordered the Heer the genocide of Soviet POWs, saying that they should be denied food and summarily executed by security detachments following the Army, et cetra, which was also corroborated by General Warlimont.

Worse yet, the pre-planned genocide tempoes were obviously pre-calculated by the Germans, who expected fully to destroy the RKKA during the first weeks of combat and take well over 4-5 million men prisoner. In fact, after the POWs already were taken, the OKH on 21st October 1941 (or precisely Edward Wagner) issued a new order which lowered the "normative" calorie intake of a Soviet POW to 1500 calories. One German report on the POW camp conditions said "systematic sanitary measures of the POWs and buildings in the camps themselves, as it seems, is not even planned for. Often we heard the sayings:"The more of the prisoners die, the better for us".

The SS in the book was supposed to be an allegory for the sacrifices a state makes in total war and how that changes its character.

The problem of Kratman and other people who think the SS is an apt metaphor for total war is that they are wrong. Many nations went to total war mode during World War II, but the SS was not a symptom of total war - it was a tool of genocide, so vast a genocide that it inevitably managed to draw not only the entirety of the SS into it's execution, including the Waffen-SS, but also the Wermacht, auxillary units and even civilian organizations, slave-holding industrial companies and many, many more various organizations of military and civilian nature.

The Nazi state had warped goals before it became a total war state (circa 1943), it didn't even fully mobilize it's industry, but the plans of genocide were all there, set and ready to go.

The SS signifies not how total war changes a nation, because their goals, from creation to destruction, were determined and prepared in peacetime, as was the grand war itself actually - they signify something else. Probably the abortion of human dignity for the sake of racist goals, but that would interfere too much with the image Kratman wants to create - "tough criminals, but amidst wussies".

The problem is that even in a total war, even in a very large war, not every soldier is a criminal, and often an army doesn't even need criminals. The Allied armies crushing Germany and Japan were truly enormous in size, but - they did not require the SS to wage a total war.

By contrast, Hitler's Army was incepted as working hand-in-hand with criminals and criminal goals from the beginning, and as such, when it came to defense, the criminals had no chance but to fight on. Holocaust collaborators from East European nations were often taken prisoner in fights deep inside continental Germany. They didn't do it because of "total war", but because their criminal acts left them no other choice but to defend their criminal government to the last breath...

[Darth Hoth]

The death rate has been calculated by GUVPI internee statistics, but since the Axis POWs were later re-patriated, it would be easy to check that against the repatriant claims, I doubt you'd get something else. So far this figure is considered all-around correct. Out of the 4 126 964 Axis POWs in Soviet captivity, 580,548 died according to records (14%), as for the Germans, 450,600 out of 2,389,560 POWs (19%).

Some other tallies I have seen might possibly have counted those registered as missing, also (which would roughly double the numbers, if I recall correctly); I seem to recall at least some talking about "POWs not returning home", rather than "confirmed dead". I will check.

Halder testified in 1945 that Hitler on a special OKH meeting before the start of Barbarrossa specifically ordered the Heer the genocide of Soviet POWs, saying that they should be denied food and summarily executed by security detachments following the Army, et cetra, which was also corroborated by General Warlimont.

Pre-planned starvation I was familiar with, as well as complete negligence of sanitation. The bit about organised execution and shooting of POWs on general principle I had not heard of, though; was this also implemented in practice? Is there any corroboration from original documents?

The problem of Kratman and other people who think the SS is an apt metaphor for total war is that they are wrong. Many nations went to total war mode during World War II, but the SS was not a symptom of total war - it was a tool of genocide

The question he wanted to ask was more like, "how nasty would humanity be prepared to be in order to survive? If we need to become Nazis to do so, will we?" And will that society recover from that extreme wartime phase later? (From the epilogue, it appears not to, in this case.) Kratman said in the afterword that he and Ringo decided to use the SS in the allegory for shock value and to take it to its most extreme.

Or at least, so he says. The problem is that he does not stick to this - he appears to want to both use the "totalitarian" allegory and humanise/"rehabilitate" the SS. With these contradictory aims, the latter downright apologist, the sum of it does not turn out well.

By contrast, Hitler's Army was incepted as working hand-in-hand with criminals and criminal goals from the beginning, and as such, when it came to defense, the criminals had no chance but to fight on. Holocaust collaborators from East European nations were often taken prisoner in fights deep inside continental Germany. They didn't do it because of "total war", but because their criminal acts left them no other choice but to defend their criminal government to the last breath...

Well, given the attitudes and stated aims of the enemy governments, a desperate resistance would be expected in any case, especially once these had been filtered and distorted through the German media. If one expects to face total annihilation as an independent nation (e.g., Morgenthau Plan or annexation into the USSR), one might find little incentive to surrender.

[K. A. Pital]

The bit about organised execution and shooting of POWs on general principle I had not heard of, though; was this also implemented in practice? Is there any corroboration from original documents?

Summary executions were not rare. I'm not sure if there was a general policy, or Hitler was speaking about the "Kommisar order" and supplementary orders (which meant certain death for commisars, jews, all wounded and any females among the Soviet POWs). But facts of summary shootings, by either Wehrmacht or following SD units, were recorded in many memories and documents. Some categories (commisars, jews, wounded and women) we know documentarily were slated for immediate murder, others were slated for starvation, but often out of their own initiative, German field commanders gave "No prisoner" orders, for example captain Finzelberg in the 16th Army, according to a private of his unit, gave such an order before the attack commenced. According to "special legal procedures in the zone Barbarossa", no such individuals would be tried of course.

I think what Hitler was talking about was this neat directive from Himmler:

"Chiefs of operative groups under their responsibility decide on any matters of summary execution, and give corresponding orders to the sonderkommanden. To proceed with the orders given the teams should demand the camp administration to give out prisoners of war into their custody. The chief of staffs of the Army has given orders to the Army to fulfill such demands of the teams.

Summary executions should be made covertly, in convenient places, at least, not in the prisoner-of-war camps themselves and not in it's immediate vinicity. It is necessary to immediately and correctly bury all dead bodies."

Which gave the einsatztruppen full right to kill any POWs they want (they were the sole determinants of the criterion for "intolerable" POWs who were to be summarily killed), and in any numbers. In 1941, for example, rottenfuehrer Gustav Sorge of the "Totenkopf" division was orderd to murder all arriving POWs to Sachsenhausen. "All Soviet prisoners who were transferred to the camp from August to October 1941... were liquidated and their corpses burned in a barrack near the crematorium in the inner workyard" - Sorge testified. According to Christian Streit's investigation of POW liqudation statistics, in the Reich proper physically liquidated (i.e. not starved) were 10 to 20% of taken Soviet prisoners overall, depending on camp, while in the Ostzonen where the OKW had control, the percentrages were higher.

Well, given the attitudes and stated aims of the enemy governments, a desperate resistance would be expected in any case, especially once these had been filtered and distorted through the German media.

Of the Germans? Quite likely. But people like foreign SS legionnaires? Their nations had no Morgenthau plan prepared for them (not to mention that these nations were in fact simply conquered Reich territories were the Germans were routinely conducting their hideous ethnic cleansing). How would you explain the fact that Norwegian, Danish, Indian and hell knows what other SS legionnaires were fighting for the Reich even after it became clear it's doomed? I do think the prospect of facing trial for their collaboration in the German crimes made the Waffen SS a lot more coherent, united and desperate in combat than it would be were it a "normal Army" without criminal implications...

[Thanas]

Stas, do not forget that by and large, the populace in the Nazi-conquered eastern territories helped with the genocide of the jews. The Baltic states and Poland were especially bad in that regard. There was widespread feeling that the nazis did the right thing, so to speak, when it came to their treatment of the jews.

[Darth Hoth]

According to Christian Streit's investigation of POW liqudation statistics, in the Reich proper physically liquidated (i.e. not starved) were 10 to 20% of taken Soviet prisoners overall, depending on camp, while in the Ostzonen where the OKW had control, the percentrages were higher.

Interesting, I was not aware of this. I shall have to read that study, then.

Of the Germans? Quite likely. But people like foreign SS legionnaires? Their nations had no Morgenthau plan prepared for them (not to mention that these nations were in fact simply conquered Reich territories were the Germans were routinely conducting their hideous ethnic cleansing). How would you explain the fact that Norwegian, Danish, Indian and hell knows what other SS legionnaires were fighting for the Reich even after it became clear it's doomed? I do think the prospect of facing trial for their collaboration in the German crimes made the Waffen SS a lot more coherent, united and desperate in combat than it would be were it a "normal Army" without criminal implications...

For the West European volunteers, things would be different, of course; those groups were in large parts made up of volunteers from the local fascist or National Socialist movements, and as you point out their countries did not face dissolution post-war. For Baltics, Ukrainians and so on who saw the Reich as their only hope for national independence (however misguided such beliefs would be, given long-term Nazi plans of colonisation and displacement of "impure" populations) and saw in the annexation of their countries by the USSR their likely permament demise as independent states, the situation would be comparable to that of the Germans.

Stas, do not forget that by and large, the populace in the Nazi-conquered eastern territories helped with the genocide of the jews. The Baltic states and Poland were especially bad in that regard. There was widespread feeling that the nazis did the right thing, so to speak, when it came to their treatment of the jews.

Would the Baltics be worse than, say, Ukraine in that regard? But generally, yes; a common feature of Holocaust survivor stories from Polish Jews tends to be Poles (sometimes even the very Poles sheltering them from the authorities) holding opinions on the order of, "That Hitler's a nasty bugger, but at least he knows how to deal with the Yids".

[Samuel]

Sorry for the delay. A couple things from previous chapters I forgot.

-The Posleen take apart all the infrastructure over time except the roads which they keep.
-The Posleen self-destruct is... bizarre. A God King is moving his troops out from a world undergoing it and one God King remebers fighting in it. It would make more sense if they simply farmed out the world or strip mined it to death than nuclear infighting.
-The evil SS guy is implied to be a shitty fighter (only 6 months on the line), but Dieter mentions the only reason the keep him is that he is a good gunner.
-There is a dig at the Muslims- they didn't want the Jews coming into France and petitioned to have them go elsewhere and Germany feeling a bit guilty let them in. The second part actually makes some sense, but the first... I'd imagine that the countries of Europe would be swarming with arabs fleeing from the middle east for a chance at life and would be more interested in the survival. Plus, Israel/Palestine is gone, but he doesn't go into the dynamics (which is good because otherwsie we would get more insanity).
-Posleen accuracy for shipweaponary sucks. They couldn't sink a flottila of ships going from Isreal to Germany and one of the commanders complains that the Tigers force them to fight at a distance where they are practically useless. In space, any range is a good range versus a target that cannot move.

Chapter 11
Anyway we start with the SS commander in the castle base freezing his ass off and watching the space battle overhead and wishing for more time. We could have had the next Tiger line... oh well.

being an escort for Supermonitor Moscow

The Russians have at least one capital ship.

that sun was the Japanese battle cruiser Genjiro Shirakami.38 It has rammed an enemy globe and detonated itself. Supermonitor Honshu believes that that globe was completely destroyed."

Ramming works.

We have the commander undergoing another flash back, rescuing Anna during an Arab attack and preventing her from being raped. They talk, she thinks he doesn't like her she was a camp whore and he lets slip he was SS.

Indowy Rinteel, at loose ends since the Darhel Tir's withdrawal, had joined the team to help with the railgun. He had no human-recognized degree in engineering, but many Indowy, and he was one, had an almost genetic ability to tinker. Rinteel agreed entirely about the "nightmare" part.

The have the newest wonder weapon off the line (the WW2 parrallels are blatant), but they don't have time to mass produce it. Interesting that Indowy are supposed to be expert tinkerers.

The command post shook slightly with the steady vibrations of the fort's three automatic cannon firing from their retractable turrets. On the screen the fire of the short-range guns, short ranged because the turrets were too small to permit much recoil, drew lines of mushrooming black clouds through the enemy host, leaving thousands of destroyed Posleen bodies in their wake. Each gun was capable of sending forth several dozen one-hundred-thirty-five-millimeter shells per minute by virtue of their unique chain-driven feeding system. All of that was done automatically except for feeding of the shells into the conveyor system that hoisted them aloft. That job was done by dozens of sweating, straining men in ammunition chambers far below.

The Maginot Line. The French and the Americans both use automatic machine guns for defenses. Given the Posleen tactics, I don't see how they can crack it unless the guns run dry or the Posleen bring up spheres. The downside in this case seems to be the ammo stockpile which blows up and take out the bunker.

"Get me Generalleutnant Von der Heydte on the line. I am going to place this fortress under his command and ask him for any aid he can spare to save our people. While I am doing that I want you to begin calling the other sector commanders and giving them my suggestion they do the same. Fuck the government. We haven't had a decent one since Napoleon the First, anyway."

The French government sucks so badly that even when they are on the ropes it makes unreasonable demands and the army decides to mutiny.

They call in the Germans and fall back as a tide of Posleen over runs the lines. We switch to Isabelle leading people out and than two God Kings observing.

In psychic agony, for the Posleen leader did care for his people as a whole—if not so much for individuals, Athenalras' crest sagged. The tenar-mounted God Kings had suffered no less than the mass of the People attacking on foot. The loss of so many sons was like an icy blade plunged deep into Athenalras' bowels.

The Posleen God Kings are psychers. Also, sons has to be a typo- they are hermaphrodites.

[consequences]

Kratmann pretty much always refers to God-Kings as male. I think there's some precedent on that from Ringo's books as well.

[Samuel]

Kratmann pretty much always refers to God-Kings as male. I think there's some precedent on that from Ringo's books as well.

Really? That doesn't make alot of sense. Why would they have gendered pronouns if they have no gender? Or is this just to avoid using it to refer to them because children would have worked fine in this context.

[Mr Bean]

Kratmann pretty much always refers to God-Kings as male. I think there's some precedent on that from Ringo's books as well.

It does make sense to a point in that since they are hermaphrodites it does not mean they can't have social conventions. In several examples the God-Kings mate with above-average normals that the GK's use as Sergeants. A God King born from such a union could be thought of as a son while one the GK's pops out himself could be a daughter(IE not fit to follow the GK but is sent away) while a GK born from hir own body would be a son(equivalent)

For hermaphrodites it's all semantics anyway, what do you call an offspring you gave birth to yourself instead was born of someone-elses body?