Geological help needed for world design for a novel

[Kitts]

I am an SF writer, published, and this forum has been suggested as a place where my questions will be treated sensibly, and where there are likely real experts who can help me.

This is for the last novel in my series. Very little background is necessary for this question, but if you need to know anything, please ask.

I need to go to a world on which one caste, the Warriors, of my reptilian aliens, live. It is a warm world, warmer than Earth, with several land-locked seas. There are not huge amounts of water.

I want a world where, at the equator, I can have a snowy mountain range, yet still have the climate at sea leavel and a bit above, hot.
I have a program called Fractal Terrains, a world mapping program that works in conjunction with Campaign Cartographer. (http://www.profantasy.com for the product if you don't know it) With it I designed such a world. One of my land locked seas at the base of this mountain range would have temperatures in the 80s F by the coast, which is OK.
I need their capital city there because it has the space port, and the equator is the best place for launching spaceships, even highly mobile FTL SF ones, into space. I also need the snowy mountains there as several main characters and a chunk of the storyline is based there.

My reptiles are based on the Dinosaur Man in the Canadian Natural History Museum, and used by Carl Sagan in one of his TV shows as how Dinos could have evolved into people.
They need warmth, can absorb nutrients from water through their skin, but are not amphibious. This was a colony world so harsh conditions are OK.
They farm crops and herds in the lowlands near the inland sea, and grow some mountain crops on the mountains - coffee like stuff, vines, that kind of thing. Also their legends state that all life emerged from a hot spring on their world, so their life form is based on that premise.

I need a reality-check on the climates & geology that this program has decided would be there.

Links to pix from the program showing climate, temperature and altitude are here.

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... titude.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... limate.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... rature.jpg


Any help from those who know their science is apprecuiated. Thanks in advance.

Kitts

[Broomstick]

Darn, now I'm trying really hard to figure out which "SF writer, published," you are....

Doesn't Mt. Kilimanjaro in Africa posses some of the traits you're looking for? If it happened on Earth you know it's possible.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Our world has a point on the equator that sort of fits with a "snowy mountain range": the volcano Cayambe in Ecuador is on the equator itself and where the line crosses includes a section above the permanent snow line. As long as you have a range at least as tall as the Andes and don't make the world too much hotter than Earth, that point at least should be very plausible.

[Kitts]

It needs to be far hotter and drier than Earth.

[Broomstick]

If you make they equatorial mountains high enough they'll have snow and ice on their tops, but breathing up there might be a problem with the thin atmosphere.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I want a world where, at the equator, I can have a snowy mountain range, yet still have the climate at sea leavel and a bit above, hot.

On our world, if India and Asia were about a thousand miles further south, that's exactly what you'd have. If you have a small sub-plate butting into a larger tectonic plate you can get HUGE mountain-ranges in a very short distance from the sea. Maybe its just me, but I'm having a hard time understanding the specifics of what you're asking.

P.S. I'm a geologist, with specialization in geophysics and hydrology.

[Kitts]

Sorry about that, Captain Chewbacca. My skills are in the Arts - art, English and history, so I am not sure how to phrase it scientifically. Please bear with me.

I put Links in for maps I have generated of my planet, so my question refers to the maps.

1) Are those maps OK and believable for temperatire, climate and altitude? That is the real question. I would be siting my city on the eqator, which is in the upper area of the snowy topped curve of the mountains, by the coast. There the foothills are only 89 miles from the sea. I did raise the sea a bit, and the land, so the sea level shows as much higher than zero. No way round that, unfortunately, that I could see, so assume sea level is zero and the land levels are as stated on the maps.
Thanks again.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Well, if I'm reading your maps right, you have an elevation change of 30,000 feet in the space of about 800 miles. That's... a bit better than mount everest, but again if you make it a very seismic-intensive (fun earthquakes) then yes, that would be fine. If I were you, I'd lower the gravity on your planet to .9g, to make the mountain heights a bit more reasonable.

[Kitts]

.9 it is.
On earthquakes, where would they be roughly, I mean equatorial, or location isn't important? How often would I need to have earthquakes, just whenever to suit the plot? Same with location and number of volcanos, can I dot them wherever I fancy or do they need to be in certain areas similar to the ring of fire (or is it rings?) on Earth?
Oh, the circumference is 50,000 miles. I assume axial tilt is earth normal at 23.439 degrees for this.

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I like to have the science as accurate as possible. And may thanks again for the help.

[CaptainChewbacca]

.9 it is.
On earthquakes, where would they be roughly, I mean equatorial, or location isn't important? How often would I need to have earthquakes, just whenever to suit the plot? Same with location and number of volcanos, can I dot them wherever I fancy or do they need to be in certain areas similar to the ring of fire (or is it rings?) on Earth?

Do you have a map of your world? On earth, quake/volcano occur largely on continental or plate margins where you have ocean plate running under the continent. This can make for quakes extending several hundred miles inland. I wouldn't put volcanos too close together, but I'm not aware of any 'rule' governing how close they might be.

Oh, the circumference is 50,000 miles. I assume axial tilt is earth normal at 23.439 degrees for this.

A planet that size will have to have fewer heavy elements (I.E. Iron) than earth, especially if the gravity is less. Be sure to adjust your culture accordingly.

[Kitts]

Dang on less heavy elements - I need more if possible. What would I need to reduce the circumference to, to enable them to have more, or at least as much as Earth? They chose this world to build their war machines on and from, and the surrounding planets/asteroids etc. This is the heart of their military with 3 space fleets berthed in this system.

Thank you, I needed this information to know the world is wrong.

Yes, I have a map of it. Links to a cylindrical view of the world, and sperical, below for you - if you prefer another view, the program does about every view of the world you can think of, including 18-way setreoscopic gores and 6-way interrupted sinusoidal.

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... drical.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... sphere.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... phere2.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... titude.jpg
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... titude.jpg

[CaptainChewbacca]

Dang on less heavy elements - I need more if possible. What would I need to reduce the circumference to, to enable them to have more, or at least as much as Earth? They chose this world to build their war machines on and from, and the surrounding planets/asteroids etc. This is the heart of their military with 3 space fleets berthed in this system.

Well, hang on a second. If it's all about the surrounding asteroids and planets, then low metals on this world might not be so bad. If its a colony world, that means they came to this planet already having space-travel. This planet is habitable, so its heavily settled. BUT, if you're building space-fleets, you're doiing it IN SPACE, with almost none of your heavy industry on the ground. They live/play on your desert world, and when they need to get into orbit its nice because there's lower fuel consumption due to the lighter gravity. Heck, if I absolutely HAD to do precision machining on a planet, I'd do it in low gravity for just that reason; reduced fuel consumption. The other planets in the system may be lousy with heavy metals, but this one is the place you want to live. Also, MORE heavy metals would make your planet less hospitible to life.

As for the map, you should check out mars. Similar deal, with mostly arid terrain even when it had water. You're not having nearly as much resurfacing as earth has, so I'd drop at least one Hellas Basin and make it an impromptu sea nowhere in particular, as well as a few dozen impact craters on the scale of 20-100 miles across and a handful in the 200-500 mile range.

[Kitts]

Okies - /cheers up a lot! Now the Hellas basins & craters I can do with the program. And what you say makes a great deal of sense, re the living and having some industry there. I want it to be industrialized around the main city as they ship the stuff into space to build ships there, but the large heavy plants will be in space.

I want at least munitions on the ground as I need to blow up and variously mess with their war efforts to make them think a revolution is happening. Some other industries will also be needed - maybe ceramics and other space stuff. I see it as a bit like a military - was it Tattooine where Luke Skywalker came from?

I need to rejig the part nearest the coast where the city will be, it is too steep - I want of the 89 miles from the foothills to the sea, most of it to be fairly flat.

Does the climate look OK to you? Someone else said it looked as if the program had done it the wrong way round. He thought the vegetation varied as if one was traveling from the equator to a pole, not as if one where traveling up a mountain.

I'm sorry I can't do more than make sure you get a Credit in the novel for the help you are giving me,but that you will get. If you would PM me with your name and so on, I will make sure it goes in the Thank You file now so it is written in stone for this book.

Thank you so much again.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The climate SEEMS fine, but I'm having a little trouble telling the maps apart, if you could tell me which is the climate map, that'd be sweek.

As for climate variation, it does change equator-to-pole, AND it changes as you change elevation. Especially if you're going from sea level to 30,000 feet, you're going to have (in order)

Beach.
Tropical Scrub
Savannah
Jungle
Cloud forest
Alpine scrub (above the treeline)
Glacier

That sort of elevation change also means any storms coming ashore are going to dump their rain FAST as they go up the mountains, so this range here is probably going to be renowned as some of the worst weather and roughest mountain-climbing in known space. You're looking at almost daily rainstorms in the higher elevations, and its all very young, craggy rock. Perfect place for young heroes on shore-leave to run into trouble.

[Ariphaos]

The thing about having a planet bigger than Earth (and, along with it, a larger gravity well - even at .9g it's still going to seriously outmass Earth) is that at least in our solar system, Earth appears to have its water roughly due to its size, and is slowly drying out - UV rays break apart water vapor, hydrogen escapes. Water seeps out from the core, initially faster than the rate of hydrogen escaping but, eventually, the process will cease as the core cools and Earth will slowly turn into a desert world.

This process has already largely run its course on Mars, for example.

So if it is a lot dryer than Earth, it would also imply a much older planet, though a less dense planet will also have a greater rate of water seeping into the mantle, which balances that I suppose.

And... yeah. The only reason you settle rocks is because
1) They are magnificent heat sinks
2) People feel comfortable standing on several thousand miles of rock

Mostly the former in harder sci-fi, tending towards the latter in softer sci-fi. Any sort of mining operation is, at best, supplemental, focusing on concentrations that were laid down by (in your case) prehistoric oceans. Asteroids, moons (the planet itself could well be a moon of a much larger, denser world, perhaps even a poseidon - would explain the lower density).

This is especially the case given the sheer size of your planet. Most of a Type I - Type II civilization's mining focus is actually going to be in smaller gas giants, larger ice giants (Uranus and Neptune, for example), kuiper belt objects, asteroids, smaller moons, etc. and so on. These last will be devoured entirely, especially the smaller and more remote ones.

[Ariphaos]

Hmm, random math.

Radius: 12806 km
9 m/s = x * G / 163993636000000
G / r^2 = 4.0696701181745857503885089784826e-25

Total mass = 2.2115 * 10^25 kilograms, or a bit less than four times the mass of Earth.
Density = ~2.5 grams/cc. That's less dense than Earth's moon. Given the amount of packing pressure the planet is going to be under, it implies something closer to the makeup of Ganymede, Callisto, Titan or Ceres.

[Kitts]

The climate SEEMS fine, but I'm having a little trouble telling the maps apart, if you could tell me which is the climate map, that'd be sweek.

As for climate variation, it does change equator-to-pole, AND it changes as you change elevation. Especially if you're going from sea level to 30,000 feet, you're going to have (in order)

Beach.
Tropical Scrub
Savannah
Jungle
Cloud forest
Alpine scrub (above the treeline)
Glacier

That sort of elevation change also means any storms coming ashore are going to dump their rain FAST as they go up the mountains, so this range here is probably going to be renowned as some of the worst weather and roughest mountain-climbing in known space. You're looking at almost daily rainstorms in the higher elevations, and its all very young, craggy rock. Perfect place for young heroes on shore-leave to run into trouble.

Sounds like my desktop wallpaper called "A Path toward the stars" and all sharp, tall, outcrops of rocks!

If you click on a Link, when the page from photobucket loads, the name of the file is at the top of the browser and all of them should have a descriptive name with Climate or Altitude in them.
But for quick ID, Climate ones are the bright colors - bright blue sea, land that includes purple for the Alpine area.
Also, most of the maps are screenies of the program so have the color coded Legend to the LH side if you enlarge the image.
Altitude maps are the paler, almost washed out colors.

Your climate list more or less echoes what I thought - except not sure what cloud forest actually is - rainforest?
Hm the rainfall is less, though. Here is a screenshot of the Rainfall. http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... infall.jpg

[Kitts]

Xeriar, thanks for that. Will look them up.

[Junghalli]

The thing about having a planet bigger than Earth (and, along with it, a larger gravity well - even at .9g it's still going to seriously outmass Earth) is that at least in our solar system, Earth appears to have its water roughly due to its size, and is slowly drying out - UV rays break apart water vapor, hydrogen escapes. Water seeps out from the core, initially faster than the rate of hydrogen escaping but, eventually, the process will cease as the core cools and Earth will slowly turn into a desert world.

This process has already largely run its course on Mars, for example.

So if it is a lot dryer than Earth, it would also imply a much older planet, though a less dense planet will also have a greater rate of water seeping into the mantle, which balances that I suppose.

From what I've heard, a planet's volatile content is pretty much a crap shoot. A lot will depend on how much volatile-bearing outer system debris was shifted into the inner system during the solar system's early history, which will depend on stuff like the presence of companion stars, whether gas giants are present, how big they are, in what sort of orbits they are etc. A solar system with a gas giant in an elleptical orbit, for instance, will probably have drier terrestrial planets. And giant impacts can strip away volatiles from a young world (or add to it, I imagine, if the impactor is volatile rich). So I think Kitts should have plenty of freedom to pretty much give his planet however much or little water he wants, as volatility will probably vary quite widely with many factors.

[Ariphaos]

From what I've heard, a planet's volatile content is pretty much a crap shoot. A lot will depend on how much volatile-bearing outer system debris was shifted into the inner system during the solar system's early history, which will depend on stuff like the presence of companion stars, whether gas giants are present, how big they are, in what sort of orbits they are etc. A solar system with a gas giant in an elleptical orbit, for instance, will probably have drier terrestrial planets. And giant impacts can strip away volatiles from a young world (or add to it, I imagine, if the impactor is volatile rich). So I think Kitts should have plenty of freedom to pretty much give his planet however much or little water he wants, as volatility will probably vary quite widely with many factors.

True, we don't exactly have a lot to go on.

The density issue is extremely problematic, though, especially with the world being so hot and dry - the typical solution would be to make it a poseidon, but that's obviously out of the question here. It's not going to resemble Earth in any reasonable sense below about ~1.3 g's or so. 1.5 would be safer. My idea of a believable chemical makeup for a world stops at lithium hydroxide deserts.

For what it's worth, I think it would be far easier to posit a younger, more geologically (or meteorologically >_>) active world - the Himalayas have not reached their highest possible peaks, Earth has spent the past four and a half billion years cooling down, and it's a lot easier to picture said mountains when they can actually be made out of rock.

[Junghalli]

Hmm.

Kitts, is it important that the world be low density/have a larger surface area than Earth but lower gravity? If not, the easiest solution would seem to be just to make it slightly smaller than Earth. A world with .9 G gravity could still easily hold onto an Earthlike atmosphere (I think your planet would be around Venus-sized).

[Ariphaos]

I would have a hard time believing, that if we surveyed the galaxy for all worlds ten times the size of Earth, we would find not one potentially terraformable world with ~6 mile high mountains. If it really bothers him, he can just stretch the eastern seaboard out a bit, shave a bit off the top, or some similarly combined measure.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Sounds like my desktop wallpaper called "A Path toward the stars" and all sharp, tall, outcrops of rocks!

If you click on a Link, when the page from photobucket loads, the name of the file is at the top of the browser and all of them should have a descriptive name with Climate or Altitude in them.
But for quick ID, Climate ones are the bright colors - bright blue sea, land that includes purple for the Alpine area.
Also, most of the maps are screenies of the program so have the color coded Legend to the LH side if you enlarge the image.
Altitude maps are the paler, almost washed out colors.

Your climate list more or less echoes what I thought - except not sure what cloud forest actually is - rainforest?
Hm the rainfall is less, though. Here is a screenshot of the Rainfall. http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/K ... infall.jpg

Cloud Forest is basically a high-altitude rain forest that's foggy almost all the time. Very humid, very damp, and very spooky. There's a lot of it in western south america, which has the same sort of topographic variation you're looking for.

[Kitts]

Hmm.

Kitts, is it important that the world be low density/have a larger surface area than Earth but lower gravity? If not, the easiest solution would seem to be just to make it slightly smaller than Earth. A world with .9 G gravity could still easily hold onto an Earthlike atmosphere (I think your planet would be around Venus-sized).

Junghalii
No, the world is all variable apart from the fact I need large land masses, a few inland seas, and it needs to be hotter n drier than Earth. Size is irrelevant, and gravity I want to be about Earth normal, give or take a very little as I don't want to have to change the end of the 8th novel, which has the last couple of chapters set on that world. Luckily they are in powered armor mostly for it...

My Valtegans cannot operate easily in the cold without heated suits - they start getting sleepy and heading toward hibernating. The damp wouldn't suit them much either, but then they would avoid that area, and my Sholans CAN use it. Being felinoid, they'd do great there with the trees.

I just accepted what the program suggested, which was 50,000 mile circumference. So I am open to all and any suggestions to make this work.
Oh, and I'm a not a guy, just so you know. And if you want to know the series, it is here. www.sff.net/people/Lisanne

CaptainChewbacca - thanks on the Cloud Forest link.

I am really enjoying all the info this is generating from you all, gives me much food for thought. I really appreciate it.

[Junghalli]

No, the world is all variable apart from the fact I need large land masses, a few inland seas, and it needs to be hotter n drier than Earth. Size is irrelevant, and gravity I want to be about Earth normal, give or take a very little as I don't want to have to change the end of the 8th novel, which has the last couple of chapters set on that world.

If the 50,000 mile circumference isn't important, it would probably be easier on the science side of things to use a circumferance more like Earth's, which is around 25,000 miles.

If you want slightly lighter gravity Venus might be a good model, it's got .8 Earth masses and .9 G surface gravity. Its circumference is 23,760 miles, if I got my math right.