SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[DarthShady]

We all agreed on the slowdown, I don't see a problem with that.

Also: I just noticed Lonestar's GLA logo.

[Lonestar]

Also: I just noticed Lonestar's GLA logo.

The Principality of Sirnoth has been swept away. The new nation is the State of Sirnoth, with a new Coat of Arms and Flag.

Well, do we want to draw out who is going to be in CJTF-15 and -20?

Also, who will be in charge of the respective taskforces?


Stas, How would you like your "Rogue Agent" to whack Al-Tikriti?

[K. A. Pital]

Heh... He wouldn't be using icepick... most likely the efficient method of a car bomb.

He's fully yours, I'm sort of busy this week.

[Siege]

Well, do we want to draw out who is going to be in CJTF-15 and -20?

How about this (assuming the list I posted earlier is still up-to-date):

CJTF-15 (Frequesue)
Two PeZookian frigates
Four Byzantine frigates and eight corvettes
Two destroyers and two frigates from Canissia
Several ships from the UCSR
Four revenue service cutters from Tian Xia

CJTF-20 (Velaria)
An Old Dominion LHD escorted by a destroyer
A carrier battlegroup from Cascadia
Four frigates from Langley
A cruiser-destroyer squadron from the Shinra Republic
A cruiser from Serenity
One amphibious assault ship, and one AEGIS destroyer from Tian Xia

I've tried to take into account what would be convenient, for example the UCSR and Byzantine ships are already stationed in Frequesue so it would make little sense to dispatch them to Velaria. Velaria is also vastly bigger so any carriers and LHDs would probably be of more use there than around Frequesue, where there's a fair bunch of airstrips around (be in Sabika, Coilerburg, San Dorado or Port Nike).

Also, who will be in charge of the respective taskforces?

Perhaps a Byzantine in charge of CJTF-15 and a Cascadian in charge of CJTF-20?

[Master_Baerne]

Again, I can contribute supply assets if needed.

[Ryan Thunder]

The Langley Navy and Coast Guard are in the process of adopting ShinMaywa US-2s modified with multiple guns (one Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-2 in the nose, two KPV heavy machine guns in waist observation blisters, and an additional KPV in a remote-controlled tail turret) and cheek and wing hardpoints for missiles and rocket pods. Overkill? Maybe, but it helps.

I wonder if there could be a market for an amphibious gunship. A US-2 fitted with Bushmaster II chain guns and a Bofors L/70 all firing out the port side might be a useful anti-pirate weapon...

That's a pretty interesting idea. Would you be interested in jointly developing a purpose-built amphibious gunship?

I've got... 8 ASW planes that shouldn't be too terrible for dealing with pirate ships. I could contribute a few to the Frequesuan task force.

Yeah? Some dudes on a speed boat are going to stop because of a ASW airplane that can't slow down enough to communicate with them? or stop and board a captured ship?

They're responders, not searchers. Ship under attack -> Fishers locate the offenders and neutralize them if they haven't made it aboard yet, or if they try to escape.

Why do you have ASW planes, isn't your country landlocked?

It's surrounded by rivers and lakes. And sorry, I I believe the actual designation in the spreadsheet was "naval patrol". Of course, in keeping with my impending titling, I thought they meant ASW helicopters, so I pulled an ASW Osprey-spinoff out of my ass for the role.

[Lonestar]

They're responders, not searchers. Ship under attack -> Fishers locate the offenders and neutralize them if they haven't made it aboard yet, or if they try to escape.

They aren't very good responders then.

It's surrounded by rivers and lakes. And sorry, I I believe the actual designation in the spreadsheet was "naval patrol". Of course, in keeping with my impending titling, I thought they meant ASW helicopters, so I pulled an ASW Osprey-spinoff out of my ass for the role.

You're worried about submarines in rivers and lakes enough to dump money on developing a unique ASW aircraft?

And you're wonderering why we think that you're running your economy into the ground?

[Beowulf]

A river system that I control seaward access to, no less. Admittedly it's a damn giant system that's probably brackish for far too much of it's length. Still, I'm not going to let anything up, and I'm sure not stupid enough to try to send a submarine up myself.

[RogueIce]

• A cruiser-destroyer squadron from the Shinra Republic

Sorry, was out for a good chunk of the weekend, but I need to correct this. The "cruiser-destroyer squadron" is simply my Navy's internal name for the ships based at Syl, Vineyards (that base I've had since the beginning of the game). They weren't being specifically sent to the anti-piracy taskforce, so much as they're already in the area and they can be used if needed/as available.

The only thing I was sending to the taskforce specifically was a Replineshment Squadron, which is three frigates and an AKE/AO pairing.

Now, the CRUDESRON was doing antipiracy back when there was the FTO and things were peachy, but I would presume since then they wound up doing general Pacific deployments, or doing whatever in conjuction with the Vineyards and anything Beo has at Tian Jiao.

In light of that, I suppose my REPRON would go support CJTF-20. The CRUDESRON would probably help out either one, if they're requested and happen to be in the area. If they were to be permenantly assigned, it'd probably be to CJTF-15. Note that despite the name, they have four Halifax-type frigates, which would most likely go to support antipiracy. The cruiser and pair of destroyers would probably head off to wherever, though (general deployment stuff). Also, there is a flight of four P-3Cs that could be used if you want 'em.

I also have my forward deployed battlegroup in Tian Jiao, but they only tend to stick around the F-ing Continent long enough to do predeployment training/workups and then head off into the ocean. Either around the Impact Crater Archipelago or Velaria. I'll probably talk with Lonestar about rebasing them in the OD or Sirnoth at some point, though.

Also, for Velarian antipiracy, like Steve I usually swing a Battlegroup around Velaria during their usual deployments. So they likely wouldn't be formally a part of CJTF-20, but if they're in the area they'll respond to calls for help.

Finally, on the timeline thing, I was thinking that this year actually started on the 17th. Since it was 1 game month = 1 RL week, it would be easier to just do it Sunday -> Sunday, rather than some middle of the week thing. That way, you know every Sunday is a new month, rather than trying to remember it on Friday or whatever.

[CmdrWilkens]

How about this (assuming the list I posted earlier is still up-to-date):

CJTF-15 (Frequesue)
Two PeZookian frigates
Four Byzantine frigates and eight corvettes
Two destroyers and two frigates from Canissia
Several ships from the UCSR
Four revenue service cutters from Tian Xia

CJTF-20 (Velaria)
An Old Dominion LHD escorted by a destroyer
A carrier battlegroup from Cascadia
Four frigates from Langley
A cruiser-destroyer squadron from the Shinra Republic
A cruiser from Serenity
One amphibious assault ship, and one AEGIS destroyer from Tian Xia

I committed an UNREP Squadron which would, based on current deployments, work with CJTF-20. Since I'm already constantly in transit to Velaria and back I've got the basic fleet servicing point required to restock my squadron. Thus I can have the UNREP dedicated to CJTF-20 principally since my CVBGs are almost entirely nuke at this point a single oiler can reload my AvGas needs.

[Ryan Thunder]

They're responders, not searchers. Ship under attack -> Fishers locate the offenders and neutralize them if they haven't made it aboard yet, or if they try to escape.

They aren't very good responders then.

It's surrounded by rivers and lakes. And sorry, I I believe the actual designation in the spreadsheet was "naval patrol". Of course, in keeping with my impending titling, I thought they meant ASW helicopters, so I pulled an ASW Osprey-spinoff out of my ass for the role.

You're worried about submarines in rivers and lakes enough to dump money on developing a unique ASW aircraft?

No, the previous administration was.

I just keep them at Port North for naval defense there, where they're actually useful.

And you're wonderering why we think that you're running your economy into the ground?

It balances. Seriously. I dunno why you don't believe me, but it does. I'm under-budget right now.

Just remember that my military is utterly tiny. My entire infantry force is the size of one or two of your divisions, IIRC.

[CmdrWilkens]

And you're wonderering why we think that you're running your economy into the ground?

It balances. Seriously. I dunno why you don't believe me, but it does. I'm under-budget right now.

Just remember that my military is utterly tiny. My entire infantry force is the size of one or two of your divisions, IIRC.

You've got an economy of 500Bn give or take, total government expenditures including local and provincial level expenditure shouldn't exceed 40% or so of that without drastic consequences or neccessity such as a war. This means including all local outlays you have maybe $200 Bn which would include as an example education. Take where I grew up, Howard County a central MD county with a well funded district. They use roughly $650 million to educate the children in a populace of roughly 250,000. Applied in such a quick and dirty manner educating your populace alone should cost WELL upwards of $22Bn or a tod more than 10% of your available funds, probably generously under-estimating, and that is entirely local spending before you even touch Federal expenditure. I don't think you realize just how little money you have to spend on anything.

[Beowulf]

The Osprey has cost about $25 billion over 25 years so far, and that's just to get a relatively few number of flying samples. That's $1billion/year. That's not small change. Even if we assume that SDNworld procurement isn't as fucked up as RL, and that it's only half the cost, that's still $500 million/year. .5% of your yearly budget, every year, for a quarter century for only 8 flying craft is not the most useful way to have spent that money.

F-22 development was similar to that. You claim to have developed your own 5th generation fighter design. So that's 1% of your budget gone for quite a while. Your military is typically only like 5% of GDP, so if these numbers hold true for this game, you're looking at 4% of your military budget going towards R&D of those two programs alone.

[Steve]

Cascadia's carrier groups typically operate off Northern Veleria, and piracy is not a problem there anyway. Southern Veleria sees piracy, though, so that's where CJTF-20's efforts will probably be focused. Reprisal will probably spend her first deployment working with CJTF-20 but future deployments there may be of the Cascadian Amphibious Contingency Group (LHD-centered force) or one of my other Combined Ops Groups (57KT CVA/LHD combined force). It's also worth noting that even with the decreased operating cost of Reprisal from it being nuclear-powered, the cost of maintaining four carrier groups will probably soon lead to one of my COGs, likely Defiant, being relegated to permanent Home Fleet status as a training/S&R/local sea patrol force in final years before Defiant is decommissioned or sold (she's up toward 30 years of age now).

[Beowulf]

Cascadia's carrier groups typically operate off Northern Veleria, and piracy is not a problem there anyway. Southern Veleria sees piracy, though, so that's where CJTF-20's efforts will probably be focused. Reprisal will probably spend her first deployment working with CJTF-20 but future deployments there may be of the Cascadian Amphibious Contingency Group (LHD-centered force) or one of my other Combined Ops Groups (57KT CVA/LHD combined force). It's also worth noting that even with the decreased operating cost of Reprisal from it being nuclear-powered, the cost of maintaining four carrier groups will probably soon lead to one of my COGs, likely Defiant, being relegated to permanent Home Fleet status as a training/S&R/local sea patrol force in final years before Defiant is decommissioned or sold (she's up toward 30 years of age now).

Carriers can see up to 50 years of service though. The Enterprise is looking at being 54 or so when she retires. Kitty Hawk was 48. JFK was 39.

[Steve]

That's with SLEP though, right?

It's really an issue of the fact that I can only afford so many carrier groups in operation (I might not be crunching numbers but I am trying to pay lip service to the idea of some limit to defense spending). That said, any country that would have interest in gaining a 30 year old 57,000T aircraft carrier around 2020, maybe another available around 2021-2022, might be interested in acquiring them.

[Beowulf]

That's with SLEP though, right?

It's really an issue of the fact that I can only afford so many carrier groups in operation (I might not be crunching numbers but I am trying to pay lip service to the idea of some limit to defense spending). That said, any country that would have interest in gaining a 30 year old 57,000T aircraft carrier around 2020, maybe another available around 2021-2022, might be interested in acquiring them.

Yes, that's with SLEP, but JFK went without a SLEP, IIRC. That's why it went early. Or rather, it was decided to let it go early, and thus didn't get a SLEP. In any case, I'd say a country which is willing to pay for the SLEP should probably get a good 20 more years out of them.

[TimothyC]

Ok, if the rest of you don't object, I'm going to hand Alaska over to Steve, as I'm just not all that interested in playing right now (that and I have some personal issues that I am working on ( ).

[Raj Ahten]

Sorry for my longer than expected absence; my schedule has been a bit hectic lately.

It now seems that we have pirates to deal with once more in SD.net world. I wouldn't take Seigetank's approach to it though as Japanistan might over react if they find out (to put it mildly). Why not simply follow the pirates to their home bases with UAV's or the like instead ?

[CmdrWilkens]

Sorry for my longer than expected absence; my schedule has been a bit hectic lately.

It now seems that we have pirates to deal with once more in SD.net world. I wouldn't take Seigetank's approach to it though as Japanistan might over react if they find out (to put it mildly). Why not simply follow the pirates to their home bases with UAV's or the like instead ?

Not to mention that launching weapons even in the middle of the ocean tends to produce two things likely to get discovered:
a) smoke from burning debris at the impact site
b) the sonar signature of an undersea launch

So yeah not so smart if you are trying to keep things limited.

[K. A. Pital]

I can't see Japanistan letting this slide. I understand that Siege thought "massive assault" and stuff, but seriously, the Japanistanis will say it's an act of war against a meteorological station. Hell, they might even say it's an "act of war" against Japanistan itself.

The problem is that they don't know which Frequesue nation did it (many operate submarines), but they'll be waiting for someone to take responsibility.

[CmdrWilkens]

I can't see Japanistan letting this slide. I understand that Siege thought "massive assault" and stuff, but seriously, the Japanistanis will say it's an act of war against a meteorological station. Hell, they might even say it's an "act of war" against Japanistan itself.

The problem is that they don't know which Frequesue nation did it (many operate submarines), but they'll be waiting for someone to take responsibility.

Well the Vineyards only run a single one and Miratia two. Now the other operators are the NFT and Baerne (who are CATO allies) and they run FOURTy-TWO so your house might get a rather large amount of scrutiny given the disparity in numbers.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, but stock CATO munitions aren't Tomahawks. I do agree that major Frequesue powers will get lots of flak from Japanistan for that incident.

[Beowulf]

Well, add in the fact that Japanistan is paranoid, and that the "meterological station" was across the SLOC for the NFT. Conversely, most unaligned shipping that going south will of necessity avoid the area. Best conclusion to jump to is that San Dorado got jumpy and bombed the station.

The fact that stock CATO munitions aren't Tomahawks implies that it's one of your newer members, who still use them. Hence, NFT and Baerne also get scruntiny for that reason as well. Other possibility is Indhopal, who operate a similarly large number of submarines. However, Indhopal doesn't make much sense, since they're trying to get into Japanistan's pants. I'm on the complete other side of the continent. I suppose the Vineyards could have done it, but Karmic actually kinda wins while the pirates remain heavily armed.

[Siege]

Well it's not like Japanistan has fleets of patrol subs and constellations of radar satellites to detect my every move... Although I'm sure they'll draw their conclusions, in fact I'm kind of hoping they will because the game could use some excitement at this stage. They we get into the interesting position where we know they were arming pirates but they won't admit it, whereas they know we bombed them but we won't admit it.