Terminator Salvation

[tezunegari]

Actually the full leaked ending featured connor getting killed, his skin torn off and retrofitted onto marcus in order to keep the facade of john still being alive going. Only as Marcus opens his eyes after getting the face/off treatment he immediately grabs a gun and kills EVERYONE, including kyle, etc. Then cue his eyes flashing the signature terminator red and fade to black...

So how would they have made T4 into the first movie of a new trilogy? With every important Resistance Leader dead and no way to undo it via time travel?!

The heart transplant ending might sound dumb but at least now they have a way to continue.

Out of curiosity: How is Skynet depicted? Does it have some sort of human interface or some is it like the HAL-9000 just a big wall?

[Nephtys]

Actually the full leaked ending featured connor getting killed, his skin torn off and retrofitted onto marcus in order to keep the facade of john still being alive going. Only as Marcus opens his eyes after getting the face/off treatment he immediately grabs a gun and kills EVERYONE, including kyle, etc. Then cue his eyes flashing the signature terminator red and fade to black...

So how would they have made T4 into the first movie of a new trilogy? With every important Resistance Leader dead and no way to undo it via time travel?!

The heart transplant ending might sound dumb but at least now they have a way to continue.

Out of curiosity: How is Skynet depicted? Does it have some sort of human interface or some is it like the HAL-9000 just a big wall?

Skynet likes depicting itself as a dead woman who had cancer. And giving evil villain speeches with a giant glass LCD monitor in a room designed by Apple out of white, glossy plastic.

[Terralthra]

IIRC, Skynet said that it predicted that Marcus would react best to that woman's voice, and showed it could speak through John Connor's or Kyle Reese's face, if Marcus preferred.

[VT-16]

I noticed alot of internet articles being pulled up by Marcus at the Skynet central. It seems that due to the changing of the timeline, with a much later Judgement Day occuring, the new Skynet had access to more and more information from the pre-JD era than in its previous incarnations. Thus potentially learning more about the people involved with Sarah Connor.

[Knife]

So how would they have made T4 into the first movie of a new trilogy?

It appeared, to me anyway, that the movie was set early in the resistance. Kyle Reese was just a teenager and John Connor wasn't the absolute leader of the Resistence, just a local commander of the LA-is or Southern California branch of the world wide movement. So, really the start of and/or middle of the war not the end of it as Reese would have us think when he talks about it to Sarah Connor in T1. So plenty of time for more movies on this new start.

With every important Resistance Leader dead and no way to undo it via time travel?!

Conveniently sets up John Connor as the leader of them all especially since when he pleaded for everyone not to attack, they all stood down.

The heart transplant ending might sound dumb but at least now they have a way to continue.

It was dumb and unnecessary for a 'sacrifice' from Marcus. If he had to sacrifice, it could have been set up better without all the cheese and all the camp.

Out of curiosity: How is Skynet depicted? Does it have some sort of human interface or some is it like the HAL-9000 just a big wall?

Yeah, the chick face. Not that Helen Bohem Carter isn't nice to look at, but my complaint was the Terminator-esque skull that was the 'base' when she changed from dead doc to Connor to Reese. That was silly.

[Anguirus]

The irony now of course is that now we've got plenty of people saying 'hey that would have been cool, why didn't you go with that?'.

I think that's because 1) the ending we got was a somewhat limp attempt to capture the same pathos, and 2) Sam Worthington was much more fun to see in the movie than Christian Bale as Connor.

Seriously, I used to think that the BEST thing the movie did was cast Bale as Connor, but then he kinda sucked. I myself was angry when I heard that Connor would be killed at the end of the movie, even if they had a way for Bale to return as well. Now...well, I'm still kinda glad the alt-ending didn't take place (too "cute" IMO, plus it REALLY tears the timeline a new one and destroys even the diminished significance of Connor's character), but that doesn't mean the existing one is all that awesome.

I do seem to remember that Sam Worthington is signed up for sequels though. Granted that's SOP, but it's not like it would be hard to bring him back. Just have him wake up after everyone leaves. And then you could do a fairly successful story about "is he human anymore?"

[MKSheppard]

1. Apparently, Kyle Reese carries around a shotgun. In a city full of metal walking tanks. That'll be real effective.

Plasma weapons don't exist (yet). and a shotgun beats a crowbar in that it's ranged weapon. And you can load shotguns with solid slugs.

2. How can Skynet see the future/past? Is it because it's made of magic? How does it know about Kyle Reese?

I'd think because Dr. Silberman published all the rantings and ravings that Sarah did when she was under his care at Pescadero Mental Institution in published medical journals as examples of "AWESOME PSYSCHOSIS!" Remember how he was talking to the other shrinks in T2 about how fucking awesome Sarah's psychosis was?

And also because even if 1/2 of all news ever published is destroyed; Skynet is smart enough to set up a section devoted to looking through past history for possible terminator attacks -- remember T-1 and T-2 weren't exactly QUIET; the T-800 in T1 killed a entire police station full of cops; while Uncle Bob shot up an entire parking lot of cops with zero casualties, and then blew up cyberdyne. Lots of eyewitnesses.

Then we have the video footage of Cyber Research System's facility from T3 that Skynet has, of T-850 Ahhhnuld battling it out with the T-X.

EDIT: Plus, we have the video footage of Kyle Reese's interrogation from T1 that no doubt Silberman referenced to and had transcripts made of, to help talk about "Psychosis transferrence" from Kyle Reese to Sarah Connor.

3. Skynet is a complete moron for developing those plasma gun things in T1, given how nothing Connor had could scratch Arnold.

Because it wants something more efficient for killing people with a lot more stowed rounds and less weight? If your T-600 can carry 1,150 rounds on it's backpack with a conventional weapon, and 11,500 rounds with a plasma weapon; which would be more efficient for long duration patrols, with less resupply needed?

4. Why is a submerged submarine transmitting the kill signal, instead of something... you know, not under hundreds of feet of water and operating hidden? Also, why was there an AWACS radar dish thing on top of it?

Hell if I know.

5. Who the heck built all those giant robot arms and stuff in the Death Camp and Terminator Factory? In T3, didn't Skynet just have a bunch of minigun-armed tankbots? How can it build an infrastructure at all?

Remember that by this point it's been 15 years since judgement day -- I'd imagine Skynet started out with some semi-automated factories in non-nuked areas; built some T-2 terminators to round up humans, and used them as slaves to build T-3 and T-4 terminators.

Skynet also had the bonus of knowing exactly what happened on Judgement Day -- the rest of the world, except for John Connor and Katherine Brewster, don't. So the world's militaries, etc, will all suspect it was a American/Israeli/Chinese/Russian etc attack which started the war, not a defense network; so Skynet has time to build up a small base without being under constant attack.

7. Heart Transplant Surgery in a dirty, wind-blown hangar is apparently quite easy.

Hey, don't ask me.

8. Why didn't Skynet just carpet-bomb that little bunker, or all those A-10s sitting open on the tarmac?

Because Skynet hasn't yet developed it's capabilities to the level of 2029, forcing the resistance to go underground even more? At this point, the human resistance can still openly contest a lot of area apparently.

9. Hunter-Killers and the prisoner transport seem to operate off anti-gravity.

You didn't notice the jet engines on the sides?

11. Why didn't Skynet just shoot Kyle Reese? Why take him to the 'overly elaborate and easily escapable death-trap room'?

I think at this point, Skynet had thought things through and concluded that instant "one-shot-I-WIN!" solutions don't work; judging from studying the attempts to send terminators back to get victory. Remember, if Kyle Reese is killed; all John Connor has to do is tell Private Joseph Schmuckatelli that he is to refer to himself as Kyle Reese for "security reasons" when he sends him back to 1984.

It's why I think it did this solution which tried to tie in getting as many of it's enemies: Reese, Connor, the Resistance Leadership, and much of the surviving Resistance itself. Obviously, you can't kill Reese the moment you spot him, because there's always the small chance that Marcus will notice a dead Reese, and send some sort of signal to Connor to not come there, before your hidden programming can take over.

12. Apparently machines, like puppies, make noises to express that they're happy. Only machines go 'BRRZGHH-KRRKGKHHH'.

[/quote]

WARK WARK

[MKSheppard]

Conveniently sets up John Connor as the leader of them all especially since when he pleaded for everyone not to attack, they all stood down.

At first, I was like "wtf" in the movie theater, but by the end, it made sense -- certainly it made more sense than people believing John Connor and following him automatically based on the fact he was the first one to actually begin taking command from a bunker in 2003. And I liked how Connor was in "Tech Com", that's the unit Reese is in from T1.

[Anguirus]

Obviously, you can't kill Reese the moment you spot him, because there's always the small chance that Marcus will notice a dead Reese

I don't buy it. Skynet is completely controlling what Wright sees...remember, he *thinks* that he has unlocked Reese's door when really he hasn't. Moreover, it actually can control his actions to some degree as well with that chip. And if you refer to Marcus actually seeing Reese' body somewhere, an incinerator neatly takes care of that.

Anyhow, I ran across an article that explains some of the weirdness at the end of the film. Basically, Reese was originally to have a MUCH bigger role, Blair a somewhat bigger role, and Connor a practically nonexistent one. Plus Skynet was actually running a seaside resort. o_0 They were basically rewriting the script during shooting, which eliminated some real bullshit perpetrated by the original writers but introduced the gaping "Why Don't Ya Just Shoot 'Im" plothole.

[Galvatron]

And I liked how Connor was in "Tech Com", that's the unit Reese is in from T1.

If they want to remain true to T1 (fat chance), Reese will be assigned to the 132nd under Perry from '21 to '27 and then reassigned to Tech Com under Connor during the final two years of the war.

That's assuming the war ends in 2029 and doesn't continue through 2032 when the T-850 from T3 kills JC.

[MKSheppard]

Read the link on the original ending; and man is it stupid beyond belief. Way stupid beyond belief.

All John Connor does is talk over the radio? How the fuck does that inspire people? A shadowy voice over the radio? One of the terminator comics or novels or whatever, had a good point -- John has to put himself in danger, lead missions early on, to prove that yes, he can be trusted to lead the resistance, to inspire others to put themselves in danger. At least that was his argument to Sarah (in the SM Stirling novel series I think).

[Mad]

So, my personal canon here is T1 -> T2 -> T3 (maybe) -> TS -> T:SCC.

No, there are too many discrepancies with T:SCC to have it make much sense.

Such as?

Not wanting to argue here, juust wanting to know what these are. I can think of a few minor ones off the top of my head, but are there major ones I'm unaware of?

John Connor's reaction to Marcus wouldn't make sense for a John Connor who worked with Cameron. Regardless of whether Cameron stayed loyal or eventually betrayed him, Connor likely would've behaved differently to Marcus.

If the two were to take place within the same continuity, then SCC would probably take place later in the time war than TS did. (Or, at least in an iteration where Cameron wasn't sent back, if later developments change that.) SCC seems to be the first instance in the time war where Cameron was sent back (Cameron's action cause Sarah to time-jump over her previous death date).

[Nephtys]

I wondered, why is John Connor so skeptical of a machine with feelings, or one that'd help him? Hello? His only father figure was a machine from the future...

[Marcus Aurelius]

Read the link on the original ending; and man is it stupid beyond belief. Way stupid beyond belief.

All John Connor does is talk over the radio? How the fuck does that inspire people? A shadowy voice over the radio?

Ask Charles de Gaulle. This is clearly a point where the script writers knew more about real history than you would think.

[Stark]

Oh come on, we all know history only counts when it agrees with Shep.

I find the story of Angirus posted about the hackjob of the story very interesting; I'm actually interested in seeing it now just to see how nonsensical and broken it can be. Poor old Christian Bale?

[MKSheppard]

Ask Charles de Gaulle. This is clearly a point where the script writers knew more about real history than you would think.

Except that Charles de Gaulle was already a well known personality; as a Brigadier General in 1940 he provided some of the few bright spots in the Battle of France; and thus was positioned much better than some unknown schmuck speaking French over the radio from England.

By contrast, who the hell is John Connor? He's virtually unknown before Judgement Day, unless you're one of Sarah Connor's crank followers. Connor has to prove himself as being a bit more than the guy who brings you semi daily technical updates on how to fight the Machines.

[Peptuck]

Or wait, did you mean the unaltered T:SCC timeline before Cameron was sent back?

Yeah, that one, not the new timeline minus John Connor at the end of T:SCC.

Basically, TS -> "original" T:SCC timeline where Cameron is sent back to 1999 -> "new" T:SCC timeline where John jumps past JD.

John Connor's reaction to Marcus wouldn't make sense for a John Connor who worked with Cameron. Regardless of whether Cameron stayed loyal or eventually betrayed him, Connor likely would've behaved differently to Marcus.

If the two were to take place within the same continuity, then SCC would probably take place later in the time war than TS did. (Or, at least in an iteration where Cameron wasn't sent back, if later developments change that.) SCC seems to be the first instance in the time war where Cameron was sent back (Cameron's action cause Sarah to time-jump over her previous death date).

Cameron was sent back from 2027, while TS takes place in 2018, so these could easily be "different" John Connors.

Just curious, where was it said that Judgment Day took place in 2003 in the TS timeline? Did I miss a chunk of dialogue when I watched the movie?

[Anguirus]

I wondered, why is John Connor so skeptical of a machine with feelings, or one that'd help him? Hello? His only father figure was a machine from the future...

No kidding. It was also not much of a "moment" when he saw Arnold-bot again.

In contrast, Dekker's portrayal of Connor from SCC is much more ambivalent. He also has a pretty solid understanding of human and machine psychology, and he is so technically proficient that future-him is reprogramming Terminators left and right. In other words, there is a *reason* why he's so important.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Ask Charles de Gaulle. This is clearly a point where the script writers knew more about real history than you would think.

Except that Charles de Gaulle was already a well known personality; as a Brigadier General in 1940 he provided some of the few bright spots in the Battle of France; and thus was positioned much better than some unknown schmuck speaking French over the radio from England.

De Gaulle was mostly known in military circles and he was not the only French tactical level commander who performed fairly well. The efforts of the 4th DCR were valiant, but not the kind of resounding success that would have lifted him to a national hero. To the French general public he was largely unknown, although of course some would have remembered him from the news reports.

If we continue this discussion, it will probably have to be split to History Forum.

[Darth Ruinus]

I wondered, why is John Connor so skeptical of a machine with feelings, or one that'd help him? Hello? His only father figure was a machine from the future...

I don't think he's ever trusted a machine that showed up and said "Hey I'm a friend!". He only trusted machines that he (or the Resistance) had reprogrammed or that showed they were protecting him (the Terminator from the second movie saved him from the shoot-out in the mall, and Cameron saved him from Cromartie). Marcus, on the other hand, just showed up and got hit by a mine.

[Drooling Iguana]

I just got back from seeing the movie. It was, of course, not nearly as good as T1 or T2, but as a relatively mindless summer action movie it succeeded fairly well. Its story wasn't any less coherent than, say, Transformers or NuTrek, it had some well-acted, likeable characters (although Marcus was a bit of a Mary Sue) and its action scenes were well put together and genuinely exciting (something which both Transformers and NuTrek utterly failed at.) Skynet acted way too much like a Jamed Bond villain for my tastes, but beyond that the movie was pretty entertaining and I'll probably see it again when it comes out on DVD.

[Ryan Thunder]

Saw it today. Meh. Very inconsistent. Marcus is punching people out without so much as breaking their bones in one scene, before knowing he's a machine, then in the next he's throwing an uber T-800 around...

[SylasGaunt]

Saw it today. Meh. Very inconsistent. Marcus is punching people out without so much as breaking their bones in one scene, before knowing he's a machine, then in the next he's throwing an uber T-800 around...

It's called pulling punches even if he didn't know he was doing it.

[Ryan Thunder]

It's called pulling punches even if he didn't know he was doing it.

I don't know about you, but I don't pull punches when I'm trying to knock someone out (not that it's ever actually happened, but whatever.) How the hell is he supposed to hold back when he doesn't know he has to?

[Ghost Rider]

It's called pulling punches even if he didn't know he was doing it.

I don't know about you, but I don't pull punches when I'm trying to knock someone out (not that it's ever actually happened, but whatever.) How the hell is he supposed to hold back when he doesn't know he has to?

So because you've never done it, you cannot see why another person would as well? Jesus, you are fucking dumb.

But to put this in perspective, no one fights by putting all their power into a punch or kick unless you're desperate or untrained. It takes a lot of energy and is wasted for something far more efficent. You aim for soft areas and put the amount power needed to hurt or kill. And unless you can demonstrate he was aiming to kill, was a completely untrained in hand to hand, or some untrained yokel hick, he was using what he thought was needed to hurt. Thus even as a T-whatever model he was exerting that much power.