Ok, just wondering...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:11pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Actually, no. The Guide shows that the Carracks have severe shielding flaws in critical areas, which is why they weren't mass-produced.

Which guide? Besides which, guess what? It doesn't matter against ST ships. The weapons that starfighters use in SW are multi-kiloton for the blasters, and hundreds of megatons for the missiles. SW hulls can withstand thermonuclear strikes, and UFP starships do not have that kind of firepower.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:13pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
jaeger115 wrote:Forget the TIE bomber. Let's see... Defient vs. Carrack.
Let's see: Carrack Cruiser--200 GT weapons.

Ossus, the Acclamator is somethinle like 2x as long and 4x as massive then a carrack. Meaning it can throw alot more power behind it's weapons. So why should we assume that the weapons are the same power? I think the Carrack's TLs are probably 1-2 GT.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:13pm

The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels.
And I'm not talking about little flaws, we're talking the king a single protorp could go through.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:14pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Actually, no. The Guide shows that the Carracks have severe shielding flaws in critical areas, which is why they weren't mass-produced.

No, it said that it lacked sufficient armor over the powerplant, and that the Navy didn't buy alot as a result.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:15pm

Ossus, I like Wars too, but you are fanatical. Granted, most other SW ships would dominate a Defiant, but not a Carrack.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:15pm

Ben Ingram wrote:The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels.
And I'm not talking about little flaws, we're talking the king a single protorp could go through.

Bullshit, Han was going to ram the Dominant with the Falcon to try and take it out, yet the Falcon carries 8 missiles stronger then standard torps the X wings use.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:16pm

Ben Ingram wrote:The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels.
And I'm not talking about little flaws, we're talking the king a single protorp could go through.

That's an outright lie. It said that the Carrack Cruiser lacked adequate armor over the reactor. It had nothing to do with sheilds. The Carrack Cruiser WAS mass-produced, but it wasn't snapped up by the Imperial Navy because of its armor problems. Moreover, it DOESN'T MATTER. You don't seem to understand what the disparity between SW and ST capital ships are. A SW ship with anything greater than point and fighter defense weapons would waltz through a ST battle group.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:16pm

That's almost as bad; given the fact I doubt that a Carrack would deploy it's TIE's due to decreased military funding. TIE's don't come THAT cheap, y'know.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:17pm

Then Han made an error.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:18pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Ossus, I like Wars too, but you are fanatical. Granted, most other SW ships would dominate a Defiant, but not a Carrack.

That Carrack Cruiser was designed to fight other SW capital ships. We know that a few dozen cruisers of similar class can BDZ a planet within a not-unreasonable time period. There's no way that any starship in ST can do that, short of S-8472.

Moreover, cite your EVIDENCE for why a Carrack Cruiser could not dominate a starship that is limited to a few KILOTONS worth of offensive firepower. If I am fanatical, you are a moron.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:19pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Ossus, I like Wars too, but you are fanatical. Granted, most other SW ships would dominate a Defiant, but not a Carrack.

Balls. I grant Trek far higher then most here, and even then It can only throw out a total of 18.05 GT (all torps and 10 shots from it's cannons) compared to the 100 GT of the Carrack (10 shots from all it's cannons)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:20pm

Ben Ingram wrote:That's almost as bad; given the fact I doubt that a Carrack would deploy it's TIE's due to decreased military funding. TIE's don't come THAT cheap, y'know.

WTF is this? Suddenly the debate between Carrack Cruisers and Defiants becomes a question of whether or not the Empire was correct, and a SUBJECTIVE OPINION about TIE fighters?

A TIE fighter is dirt cheap. It's worth less than six commercial transports (like the Falcon, except unmodified and second-hand). It's basically the base-line starship in SW. Nice try, but you lose.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:21pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Then Han made an error.

So you, a guy misquoting the EGVV, knows more about weapons and shield strenght then Han, a guy who has the sonsor logs right in front of him?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:21pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Then Han made an error.

LMAO.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:22pm

Ender wrote:Ossus, the Acclamator is somethinle like 2x as long and 4x as massive then a carrack. Meaning it can throw alot more power behind it's weapons. So why should we assume that the weapons are the same power? I think the Carrack's TLs are probably 1-2 GT.

The Acclamator also dedicates almost no interior volume to its weapons systems, being a transport. The Carrack Cruiser is built to fight capital ships, and come out on top. That's the difference. The 4X volume (actually almost 10X) is practically worthless, since ALL of that is dedicated to troops and equipment.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:22pm

Nope. The Carrack project is one of the most cheaply funded pieces of crap in Imperial history; I doubt the Empire would wast even a spare TIE-fighter on one.
A Nebulon-B would dominate a Defiant.
A VSD would, too.
So would a MonCal cruiser.
But not a Carrack.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:23pm

Ossus, you idiot, the Carracks were built to fight FIGHTERS, not capships. It's in the Guide.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:24pm

Ben Ingram wrote:That's almost as bad; given the fact I doubt that a Carrack would deploy it's TIE's due to decreased military funding. TIE's don't come THAT cheap, y'know.

If a credit is equal to a dollar, Ties are only 60,000 bucks. It costs 15 million for an F-14 IIRC. So yes, they are that cheap.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:25pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Ossus, you idiot, the Carracks were built to fight FIGHTERS, not capships. It's in the Guide.

This from the man who misquoted TEGVV, and based his entire argument around it. The LANCER frigate was built to fight starfighters, dumbass. The Carrack Cruiser is built around TL's, and is basically the equivalent of a Dreadnaught in terms of firepower. The Dreadnaught was built as a capital ship.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-08 09:25pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Ossus, you idiot, the Carracks were built to fight FIGHTERS, not capships. It's in the Guide.

So? Were they SW fighters or ST fighters?

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:25pm

And we're talking about the Empire of NJO, not of OT.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:27pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Nope. The Carrack project is one of the most cheaply funded pieces of crap in Imperial history; I doubt the Empire would wast even a spare TIE-fighter on one.
A Nebulon-B would dominate a Defiant.
A VSD would, too.
So would a MonCal cruiser.
But not a Carrack.

A Carrack would rape a Nebulon B you nitwit. A Neb only has 12 Medium TLs. A carrack has 10 Heavy TLs.

Here is the Carrack data

http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/Carrack.html

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-02-08 09:28pm

A. Lancers and Carracks- same design team, same purpose. Lancers are slightly less armed, but faster. Carracks do have LT's to fend off small capships, but Imperial doctrine calls for their deployment to fend off starfighters.

B. There iss no way in hell a Carrack is a third as powerful as a standard Old Republic dreadnaught, who, untill VSD's rolled around, were the standard of Republican fleets.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-08 09:28pm

Ben Ingram wrote:And we're talking about the Empire of NJO, not of OT.

WTF? Where was that stated? And even then, it makes Zero difference.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-08 09:30pm

Ben Ingram wrote:Nope. The Carrack project is one of the most cheaply funded pieces of crap in Imperial history; I doubt the Empire would wast even a spare TIE-fighter on one.
A Nebulon-B would dominate a Defiant.
A VSD would, too.
So would a MonCal cruiser.
But not a Carrack.

You are a complete dumbass. The Nebulon B frigate WAS built to combat starfighters, yet you claim it could "dominate a Defiant." You then go on to claim in your next post (which calls ME an idiot, of all people) that because a Carrack Cruiser was built to fight starfighters, it could not defeat a Defiant. Nice try, dumbass.

Moreover, had you ACTUALLY read the guide, you would have realized that the Carrack Cruiser had "sufficient firepower to engage most Rebel capital starships." End of story. You lose. You would also have realized that, far from being a mere tack-on, dirt-cheap addition to the Empire, Carrack Cruisers have "been part of the Imperial Navy since the earliest days of the New Order."

BTW, it also doesn't talk about a single torpedo being able to punch through in the right place. It states that "a direct hit just aft of a Carrack's midline has a good chance of disabling the vessel." I read that as being capital ship weapons fire, because we KNOW that Han was carrying weapons more powerful than Jango's, and that they were of comparable power to torpedoes. He was trying to ram the vessel, rather than using those weapons.