Roman Catholic Church Brutalized Irish Children.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I'm familiar that many things are first world, they have a very productive software and electronics business. However, in terms of religious attitude, deficiete spending, women's rights, and not having a sustainable economy/GDP they are still very much trying to get out of their status of being a protectorate/colony, they have a lot of first world claims including EU membership, however they are in many other important way they ae still a mess. (as mike pointed out)

[NecronLord]

It also has an incredibly high 10:1 ratio of external debt to GDP. How much of that GDP is actually the result of deficit spending and is, therefore, arguably fictitious? Americans are terrified because their external debt is nearly as large as their GDP. In Ireland, it's ten times their GDP. That sounds pretty Third World to me.

Given that all but one of the world's top fifteen most indebted countries are very definately first world (and I'm really not sure I'd label Hong Kong 'third world' save in that it's now basically a part of China) I can't see any link between external debt and third world status in the current world economy.

Of course, this means their money isn't really theirs - but the actual amount of real poverty and deprivation on the ground in these places (again, except Hong Kong - EDIT: and the shitty areas of America, natch) is in no way comparable to a typical African, Asian, Arabian or even South American nation, which is what I would say is the defining characteristic of a 'Third World Economy.'

[Oskuro]

Sorry to derail the discussion a bit, but I read some more about what that spanish cardinal said regarding this issue on the paper, and found the following logical gem:

According to Cañizares, the use of contraceptives means that sex will be done just for enjoyment, so it follows that rape should be legalized since all a rapist is doing is trying to force someone to enjoy themselves.

(sorry, can't provide links to dead-tree news)

My jaw dropped so low it almost scraped the floor. We may not be economically third world, but intellectually we're still there (heck, most of the civilized world is there regarding religious bullshit).

[bobalot]

A moving personal testimony.

[NecronLord]

Sorry to derail the discussion a bit, but I read some more about what that spanish cardinal said regarding this issue on the paper, and found the following logical gem:

According to Cañizares, the use of contraceptives means that sex will be done just for enjoyment, so it follows that rape should be legalized since all a rapist is doing is trying to force someone to enjoy themselves.

(sorry, can't provide links to dead-tree news)

My jaw dropped so low it almost scraped the floor. We may not be economically third world, but intellectually we're still there (heck, most of the civilized world is there regarding religious bullshit).

Marvelous. At least when he was blithering about abortion, I could comprehend his point (what with them believing fully developed, capable-of-suffering, souls exist from conception) here, he's just reducing to the absurd in a particularly ludicrous way.

[Norseman]

Given that all but one of the world's top fifteen most indebted countries are very definately first world (and I'm really not sure I'd label Hong Kong 'third world' save in that it's now basically a part of China) I can't see any link between external debt and third world status in the current world economy.

List is *very* suspect, Norway is listed #14 but Norway has *no* national debt at all.

[NecronLord]

Given that all but one of the world's top fifteen most indebted countries are very definately first world (and I'm really not sure I'd label Hong Kong 'third world' save in that it's now basically a part of China) I can't see any link between external debt and third world status in the current world economy.

List is *very* suspect, Norway is listed #14 but Norway has *no* national debt at all.

External debt is not the same as national debt. External debt includes all debt that is owed to creditors outside the country, not just the government's (and not all national debt is external, either, a big chunk of it tends to be in government bonds and such issued to its own citizens, though less so than in the past)

For example, the United States' national debt is 11.3 Tn USD, whereas its external debt is 13 Tn USD. (Various, 2009 sources)

Ireland's national debt is according to its national treasury managment agency going to be just under fifty billion euros by the end of this year (approx. 70 billion USD at current rates) compare to the Central Statistics Office's figure of a total external debt of 1.66 Trillion euros. That second file has its own statistic for government external debt which is somewhat different, but remember, they're not the same thing - the national debt figure from the NTMA has probably been cooked somehow.

Norway's national debt, as you say, is nonexistant as the Norwegian government is a net lender, however, your extenal debt according to Statistics Norway is 3,861 billion kroner (614 Bn USD). That's how much Norwegian people owe to people in other countries, in total. The amount of lending you do, actually offsets this to make you a net creditor - overall, other contries and their inhabitants owe more money to Norway than Norway owes out. But say, foreigners buy preference (non-voting) shares in Norwegian companies, which gives you an external debt - they've given NorwayCo money, in exchange for a share certificate that says they'll pay out X every year - in short, such shares are a sort of loan the shareholder gives the company.

That list is just how much you owe out - it does not explain much. Even healthy companies are debtors to their suppliers - so long as their creditors pay up, and they can cover it, this isn't a bad situation. However, as a rule, external debt is, for our needs, a far more reliable measure than national debt, because it talks about the whole society's indebtedness, not just the government's.

The biggest creditors is a much harder statistic to come by. Japan and Germany are the biggest, Japan by a considerable margin. China does not release its statistics. Canada became a Net Creditor for the first time in its history this year; a good way to get a handler on who's a Net Creditor is probably to think "Who owns the manufacturing industries" - by which we arrive rapidly at 'Japan, Germany, China.' One might think 'Who exports the oil' but certain states (ahem) tend to use oil money to build substitute cocks for their leaders - Norway however, seems to use its oil money responsibly.

Attempting to return to the point, however, this is a very poor way to try and determine 'Third World Economy' status. - None of the nations with largest External Debt are third world nations, and many of the nations with largest Net External Assets (holdings in other countries) are developed too. Most of the Third World simply doesn't have the resources to play at this level, China manages, by dint of being huge. GDP/per capita is much closer to a realistic assessment of living standards than a nation's External Debt.

[FSTargetDrone]

Moving on... I shall now do something rate, and tell a long, rambling anecdote.

Having gone to a Christian Brothers school, even in England, I can tell you, every child knew the Brothers (there was only one left in any kind of teaching position though, of all things, he ran the computer network for a while, personally, I liked him, though his replacement taught me far more) were capable of considerable violence. I never heard of actual violence while I was there of course¹ but in 'olden days' they used to throw things at children and so forth. Or so it was said among the pupils, and well known. If stories about Christian Brothers throwing board erasers by which of course, I mean the old fashioned wooden ones not today's light plastic whiteboard erasers, at childrens' heads from across the room remained persistant years after most of them had left, I find it hard to imagine that parents and such would be unaware of them at the time, even if the children victimised were mostly those in care and so on. In short, the idea that parents weren't highly complict in at least the mundane physical abuse involved,as advanced by some apologists, is farcical.

My father went to Catholic grade and high school in the 1950s and early 60s and he's told me about how some of the priests in the high school would on occasion shove the students around. He remembered one incident where a boy was pushed down a flight of stairs by a priest who was enraged at the boy for some reason. My father also spoke of how some students were whipped with belts. And this was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. If anything was done about this, he never knew.

I went to Catholic school in the 80s and early 90s and not once was I ever touched by any priest (or nun). However, one of the priests in our high school was suddenly reassigned and it turned out he was behaving inappropriately in some manner with some student (no details were ever given out, of course). This was in a male-only high school. The priest in question taught me Art History for a year and he seemed like a nice enough guy. The next year he was gone leaving nothing but rumors.

[Big Orange]

Of particular note is the fact that neither the Fianna Fáil or Fianna Gáel representatives applauded that poor man at the end. I feel genuinely ill now.

They refused to applaud because they were humiliated in front of a big studio audience and many hundreds of thousands of viewers. They're pricks, but I can understand why they didn't applaud because they had no leg to stand on.

I'm not so familiar with Ireland's politics, but Fianna Fa'il has been mentioned in another thread as the political party who was an enabler Ireland's Neoliberalism growth and eventual implosion.

[Rochey]

Sorry for going back so far in the thread, but I just wanted to comment on a few things.

The Catholic Church and the Irish Government are separate organizations?

They are. Now, at least.

When Ireland first became a republic and Eamon De Valera (our first Prime Minister) decided to rewrite our constitution, he gave the church a shitload of power (Necronlord's clip from the constitution being an ideal example). You have to remember that back then we were little better than a third world shithole. As I'm sure most of us know, religion thrives in countries where the public is uneducated. The church was, for all intents and purposes, practicaly a branch of the government. When the church said to do something the government did it. And the public was happy with this, because as far as they were concerned that was how it should be.

Now, when Ireland's economy started going way up during the Celtic Tiger period education similarly went up. This meant that we started to look at how things were being done, realised there was a problem, and shoved the church into the background where they've been kept ever since.

On paper the church does still weild a lot of power, but in practice it's dying a slow death. In the school I work at, I'd estimate that about half the students are atheists of various descriptions. The rest are Christians of the apathetic "well, I'm sure there's a God of some kind" sort that only go to mass on Christmas. And this is a school that's owned by a religious order. Christianity appears to be quickly dying off over here. And as far as I'm concerned, it can't die soon enough.

So while such things would be damned unlikely to happen now, back in the 50's - 80's era, they were not exactly unheard of. Hell, it was only a couple of decades ago that the priests were banned from beating children.

I'm not so familiar with Ireland's politics, but Fianna Fa'il has been mentioned in another thread as the political party who was an enabler Ireland's Neoliberalism growth and eventual implosion

Indeed, that's them. Ever since the recession's started, Fiann Faíl's been slowly comiting suicide. Once the next elections come around, they're going to simply cease to exist as a political party. Everyone hates them right now. They've shouldered all the blame for the current economic crisis, pissed the entire country off with this year's excuse for a budget (to the point where numerous FF politicians have left the party in protest) and this latest shit's going to put yet another nail in their coffin.

And you know what the funny thing is? They're still refusing to accept that they've ever done anything wrong.

[Big Orange]

Indeed, that's them. Ever since the recession's started, Fiann Faíl's been slowly comiting suicide. Once the next elections come around, they're going to simply cease to exist as a political party. Everyone hates them right now. They've shouldered all the blame for the current economic crisis, pissed the entire country off with this year's excuse for a budget (to the point where numerous FF politicians have left the party in protest) and this latest shit's going to put yet another nail in their coffin.

And you know what the funny thing is? They're still refusing to accept that they've ever done anything wrong.

Hah! They've forced themselves down a grotesquely similar cul de sac like New Labour and the Conservatives have in the UK, although we've got problems with our politicians being benefit frauds.

[Lord Pounder]

Indeed, that's them. Ever since the recession's started, Fiann Faíl's been slowly comiting suicide. Once the next elections come around, they're going to simply cease to exist as a political party. Everyone hates them right now. They've shouldered all the blame for the current economic crisis, pissed the entire country off with this year's excuse for a budget (to the point where numerous FF politicians have left the party in protest) and this latest shit's going to put yet another nail in their coffin.

And you know what the funny thing is? They're still refusing to accept that they've ever done anything wrong.

But are FG any better an alternative? I know my girlfriend, who comes from a long line of FG supporters in Cork, is voting Labour in the upcoming Euro Election as are a good portion of her family.

[Rochey]

Fine Gael and Fianna Faíl are two sides of the same coin. I'm voting Labour this year, as is everyone else I know.