Taliban getting its ass kicked in PK, now seeks negotiation

[Darth Wong]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html

Taliban seek return to peace deal in Pakistan

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- The Pakistani Taliban -- under pressure in fighting with the military -- said Tuesday it wants to return to a peace deal that recently collapsed.

That collapse sparked the ongoing massive military operation, a Taliban spokesman said Tuesday.

Taliban militants in Swat Valley have announced that they are willing to disarm if the Pakistani government allows sharia, or Islamic law, to be implemented in the region, a spokesman for Taliban mediator Sufi Mohammed said.

The government rejected the offer, saying the Taliban must pull out of Swat or face arrest, state information minister Syed Sumsam Ali Shah Bukhari said Tuesday. According to Bukhari, the offer shows that the Taliban's morale is down and they are retreating.

The lastest round of fighting has killed an estimated 1,100 Taliban militants and 75 Pakistani security personnel, Pakistan's military said Tuesday. Another 226 Pakistani security personnel have been wounded, the military said.

Mohammed negotiated the previous deal between the Taliban and the government, which called for the same arrangement.

That deal fell apart because the Taliban refused to disarm and moved into the Buner district, located outside of the region that the government allowed them to control.

The government has said it will only allow sharia if it does not contradict Pakistan's constitution. There are many interpretations of Islamic law, but the Taliban's version has curbed human rights, forcing women indoors, men to grow beards, and shops to stop selling movies and music.

The military operation against the Taliban in northwest Pakistan has resulted in the exodus of more than 2.4 million civilians since May 2.

The United Nations estimates that it's the biggest movement of people in Pakistan since the country was formed in 1947. It is also believed to be the fastest population flight in the world since the Rwandan genocide in 1994.

Funny how a disastrous military campaign can make one suddenly appreciate the value of negotiation. It's unfortunate that so much human suffering is required to make them realize this, however.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Might be a ploy to follow the Tamil Tiger's example, however. The longer they stay in the fight and learn, the more deadly they become.

[hongi]

The government rejected the offer, saying the Taliban must pull out of Swat or face arrest, state information minister Syed Sumsam Ali Shah Bukhari said Tuesday. According to Bukhari, the offer shows that the Taliban's morale is down and they are retreating.

Let the bastards burn. The Taliban reneged once already on a truce, the government isn't so stupid as to try that again.

[Darth Wong]

Might be a ploy to follow the Tamil Tiger's example, however. The longer they stay in the fighter and learn, the more deadly they become.

Oh, I'm sure it's a ploy. Mind you, all international diplomacy is a matter of subterfuge and self-interest at heart. This just shows how arrogant the PK Taliban had become; I think they believed the military would not fight them. Now that they know they will, they're backing off, but obviously they're the same unreasonable people they were before.

[CmdrWilkens]

Might be a ploy to follow the Tamil Tiger's example, however. The longer they stay in the fight and learn, the more deadly they become.

Its the same for almost any organziation taking on a larger one, strike quickly and leave quicker, fight only where you have the advantage and delay, temporize, obfusticate to obtain the time needed to gain the advantage.

[ray245]

Might be a ploy to follow the Tamil Tiger's example, however. The longer they stay in the fight and learn, the more deadly they become.

Its the same for almost any organziation taking on a larger one, strike quickly and leave quicker, fight only where you have the advantage and delay, temporize, obfusticate to obtain the time needed to gain the advantage.

Which makes it easy for them to portray any major government's actions against them as evil so to speak.

[CJvR]

Well that sounds like wonderful news, lets hope they are accurate and that the Pakistan army isn't just counting bodies in general as Talibans. While 2.4 million refugees is bad it should deprive the Taliban of the oppertunity to operate from behind civilians.

IIRC the Talibans are fairly heavily entrenched in the tribal areas and digging them out of those should be bad. Still it almost looks like they were stupid enough to accept a standup fight with the regulars in Swat and suffered for it.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I suspected that the Pakistani army would prod buttock (apologies to Terry Pratchett) if it decided to fight, and that's what seems to be happening. As for the Tribal regions, it merely depends on how far Pakistan is willing to go (i.e. how pissed off they are). If they are truly determined to bring that area to heel, then there's no telling what they might do. The fall-back option would be the Roman method (kill, kill, and kill some more). What's more, they'd probably get away with it (the human-rights crowd aside), in the name of the 'War on Terror'.

[Thanas]

If they are truly determined to bring that area to heel, then there's no telling what they might do. The fall-back option would be the Roman method (kill, kill, and kill some more).

Would you please just stay quiet before you embarrass yourself with your ignorance of history any further?

[Simplicius]

I am glad to hear this. I recall an NPR interview a few days ago where the interviewee said that public support in Pakistan for a government offensive was high, but that he feared that it would wane considerably if the offensive became bogged down or was simply taking a long time, at which point he figured that public support would shift back toward concessions. This article doesn't offer much analysis, but if the offensive has gone off this well in a relatively short period of time, then the Pakistani government may be able to count on having public support to really press home the assault to the finish, rather than letting up after an early and partial success and letting the Taliban rest.

[ray245]

I suspected that the Pakistani army would prod buttock (apologies to Terry Pratchett) if it decided to fight, and that's what seems to be happening. As for the Tribal regions, it merely depends on how far Pakistan is willing to go (i.e. how pissed off they are). If they are truly determined to bring that area to heel, then there's no telling what they might do. The fall-back option would be the Roman method (kill, kill, and kill some more). What's more, they'd probably get away with it (the human-rights crowd aside), in the name of the 'War on Terror'.

Yes, apparently doing what is needed equates to having a need to commit human rights abuse, right?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

[quote="Thanas"]Would you please just stay quiet before you embarrass yourself with your ignorance of history any further?[quote]

If I remove the word 'Roman', would that satisfy your objection? And I don't claim to know what 'needs doing'. I merely point out that something quite regrettable might happen.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Would you please just stay quiet before you embarrass yourself with your ignorance of history any further?

If I remove the word 'Roman', would that satisfy your objection?

Apologies for double post. Having trouble with quotation function.

[Thanas]

Would you please just stay quiet before you embarrass yourself with your ignorance of history any further?

If I remove the word 'Roman', would that satisfy your objection?

No. Because I am quite astounded at your ignorance of thinking that kill kill kill was the roman way.

Also, when has kill kill kill ever worked in modern times? Please enlighten me.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

In the first instance, I will admit it was a cheap shot. The Romans did resort to appalling brutality (depending on your point of view, and your definition of the words), but only when nothing else worked (and nothing like as often as is generally made out). Talk of 'genocide' can also be dismissed. I will provide a rant on use and misuse of the word genocide if requested. It's probably not relevant to this post though.

In the second, my answer is a resounding no. It might have worked in the past (depending on your definitinon of 'worked',) but probably won't resolve anything. I would merely point out that for some reason certain types of humanity keep on resorting to it under particular circumstances.

Am I forgiven?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think we have to consider what exactly constitutes victory when the "kill everything" method is used. We have to realize that the people who use it fully expect to have to use it again when the next generation comes along in 20 years to seek vengeance for the deaths of their fathers. And they do. It is an endless cycle of violence, but an endless cycle of violence which lets the central government stay in control over the territory in question, so if the central government doesn't care about human rights, it's actually highly effective.

[Sarevok]

Eh killing large numbers of their own countrymen is nothing new in Pakistan, should the need arise the Pakistani army has and will gladly step up to the task. Question is whether it will do Pakistan any good this particular time. When they tried putting down the insurrection in East Pakistan (now bangladesh) with military might they only ended up losing the province forever. Pakistan already has separatist problems going on closer to home at places like Baluchistan. These rebellious groups will gain a huge boost if the war starts being seen as between elite army people in the capital vs provincial groups. There is only so many people that can be killed before the situation becomes a civil war or secession movement.

[Oskuro]

I'm not too well versed on the issue but, aren't their sharia-law imposing demands just like saying "hey, we give up, but give us what we were fighting for"?

[open_sketchbook]

Personally, as callous as it sounds, I think they just need to ignore their request for negotiation, lock down the area that the Taliban's leadership is (and as much of the rest of the organization as they can) and tighten the noose until every one of these fuckers are dead. The Taliban as an organization is so beyond mercy at this point, the misogynistic, theocratic violent fuckwads that they are, that backing off of them for any reason would be a grave mistake. If you kill every member of the organization you can ride out whatever political fallout there is because there won't be anybody alive to rally around.

[CJvR]

Can't beat the army in the field? Well there are alternatives...

The military released on Wednesday what it said was a tape of an intercepted telephone call between the Taliban spokesman in Swat, Muslim Khan, and an unidentified militant in which Khan says soldiers should be attacked.

"Strikes should be carried out on their homes so their kids get killed and then they'll realize," Khan said on the tape, which was broadcast by media.

The unidentified man on the tape said orders had gone out to strike wherever possible.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 6520090528

[Darth Wong]

That's pretty disgusting, but not surprising for the Taliban.

[Rogue 9]

May the Pakistani government take their cues from Sri Lanka's recent behavior, as opposed to their more distant past. The last thing they should do is give the Taliban breathing room.

[Justforfun000]

Personally, as callous as it sounds, I think they just need to ignore their request for negotiation, lock down the area that the Taliban's leadership is (and as much of the rest of the organization as they can) and tighten the noose until every one of these fuckers are dead. The Taliban as an organization is so beyond mercy at this point, the misogynistic, theocratic violent fuckwads that they are, that backing off of them for any reason would be a grave mistake. If you kill every member of the organization you can ride out whatever political fallout there is because there won't be anybody alive to rally around.

I have to say I agree. I see no redeeming factors in keeping the Taliban alive as an organization. They are morally reprehensible in every sense of the word.

[KrauserKrauser]

As for the "kill, kill and kill some more" you could go for a Mongol bent with their tendency for a "Either you're with us or you're mericlessly slaughtered" policy.

[Artemas]

As for the "kill, kill and kill some more" you could go for a Mongol bent with their tendency for a "Either you're with us or you're mericlessly slaughtered" policy.

That really only works best when it's an outside agency doing the slaughtering. Doesn't usually work so well against your own people.
Also, it could break any sort of current good will between the west and pakistan - one of the only things motivating the pakistani government to do this at all.