RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
While this might seem spamy/silly, it's actually meant to be serious, so anyway...
Scenario:
A young child (say about 2) is dying, and needs a bone marrow transplant.
Thanks to genetic screening, etc, a suitable donar is found. And the transplant is successful.
A few years later, the child's parents get into a nasty divorce, and the father demands a paternity test to determine if he is the father. He cites the fact that the kid doesn't look anything like him anymore.
The mother laughs at this, as they did genetic testing when the kid needed a bone marrow transplant, and it was confirmed then he was the father. (Apparently, there was some cause to believe this, but that's beside the point.)
The mother can even produce the original DNA test to prove it, but the father won't relent, so a new one is approved.
And the result; DNA testing now shows that the father isn't the father at all, but the bone marrow donor is.
The catch; the donor is a WOMAN. (Oh, and the child is a girl as well).
The conclusion reached, via extensive testing; the bone marrow transplant somehow altered the kids DNA, so she is now, for all intents and purposes, the genetic offspring of the original biological mother, and the donor.
Originally, the child was related to the child, but they no longer share any DNA.
Now then, ignoring the science...
What would the legal ramificiations of this case be?
(Assume that tests show this is the only time this has ever happened, and is due to something unusual about the donor's DNA)
Should the 'birth father' still be considered the childs parent?
Should the donor now be considered the childs parent?
What/how should parental rights be handled?
What would the worlds religions leaders reaction to this be? (Literally, two women now have a biological child together, and it was completely by 'act of god' so to speak)
That sort of thing.
Scenario:
A young child (say about 2) is dying, and needs a bone marrow transplant.
Thanks to genetic screening, etc, a suitable donar is found. And the transplant is successful.
A few years later, the child's parents get into a nasty divorce, and the father demands a paternity test to determine if he is the father. He cites the fact that the kid doesn't look anything like him anymore.
The mother laughs at this, as they did genetic testing when the kid needed a bone marrow transplant, and it was confirmed then he was the father. (Apparently, there was some cause to believe this, but that's beside the point.)
The mother can even produce the original DNA test to prove it, but the father won't relent, so a new one is approved.
And the result; DNA testing now shows that the father isn't the father at all, but the bone marrow donor is.
The catch; the donor is a WOMAN. (Oh, and the child is a girl as well).
The conclusion reached, via extensive testing; the bone marrow transplant somehow altered the kids DNA, so she is now, for all intents and purposes, the genetic offspring of the original biological mother, and the donor.
Originally, the child was related to the child, but they no longer share any DNA.
Now then, ignoring the science...
What would the legal ramificiations of this case be?
(Assume that tests show this is the only time this has ever happened, and is due to something unusual about the donor's DNA)
Should the 'birth father' still be considered the childs parent?
Should the donor now be considered the childs parent?
What/how should parental rights be handled?
What would the worlds religions leaders reaction to this be? (Literally, two women now have a biological child together, and it was completely by 'act of god' so to speak)
That sort of thing.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Ignoring the bad science behind this, the obvious consequence is that in this special case the more recent DNA test is worthless as a proof of paternity.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Assume it's been checked and verified so many times/ways/differnet people/methods that is a fact.
I'm more interested in the implications from a legal/moral perspective.
I'm more interested in the implications from a legal/moral perspective.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Yes, I already assumed that. It's worthless, since it test genetic markers that are typically (but, exceptionally, not in this case) associated with paternity, not the abstract idea of paternity (which is not defined has "having the correlated genetic markers"). If a persons dies after a massive dose of gamma rays that destroys her entire genetic information, does he retroactively stops having parents? This scenario is disingenuous.Solauren wrote:Assume it's been checked and verified so many times/ways/differnet people/methods that is a fact.
I'm more interested in the implications from a legal/moral perspective.
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Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
If it was only a partial rewrite then a more in-depth genetic test should still show were the original parents. Because of costs paternity tests only do the minimal effort required, but in reality we can directly link individuals separated by many layers of mating if we want.
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Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
If it's from a bone marrow transplant then the child is now a genetic chimaera, with the donor's bone marrow and blood cells and everything else (the muscles, nerves, skin etc.) still being the cells of the original child. Proving paternity is a simple matter of taking a DNA sample from a tissue that isn't contaminated (I think they often use the cells in the lining of the inside of the mouth in DNA tests, so that should work). Problem solved. What the OP is talking about would require ludicrously advanced nanotech that we don't have to rewrite the DNA of every body cell. It simply couldn't be done with today's technology.
Assuming that it happened by magic somehow (maybe the Greys did it), as others have said I don't see why it should mean anything except that the later paternity test is worthless. The child was the father's offspring and it was raised by him. That should handily exceed any parentage claim by the donor.
Assuming that it happened by magic somehow (maybe the Greys did it), as others have said I don't see why it should mean anything except that the later paternity test is worthless. The child was the father's offspring and it was raised by him. That should handily exceed any parentage claim by the donor.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Sorry for the horribile typo.Melchior wrote:has "having the correlated genetic markers
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Let me ask you this: If you commit a crime and burn off your fingerprints once in prison, does this make you innocent?
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Sorry for no weekend response/clarification.
We are talking Complete Genetic Rewrite. Every test concievable finds no trace of the original father's DNA.
She has DNA from her birth mother, and the female marrow donor. That's it.
Even her reproductive DNA/Ovium are tested and they find no trace of the original father's DNA.
We are talking Complete Genetic Rewrite. Every test concievable finds no trace of the original father's DNA.
She has DNA from her birth mother, and the female marrow donor. That's it.
Even her reproductive DNA/Ovium are tested and they find no trace of the original father's DNA.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
It's still irrelevant. No effects on phenotype (magically, since she should actually die immediately in the most powerful autoimmune shock ever)?Solauren wrote:Sorry for no weekend response/clarification.
We are talking Complete Genetic Rewrite. Every test concievable finds no trace of the original father's DNA.
She has DNA from her birth mother, and the female marrow donor. That's it.
Even her reproductive DNA/Ovium are tested and they find no trace of the original father's DNA.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Assume the rewite happened, for some reason the girl survived.
This scenario IS NOT ABOUT THE SCIENCE.
It's about the possible legal/ethical/moral implications.
This scenario IS NOT ABOUT THE SCIENCE.
It's about the possible legal/ethical/moral implications.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
There are none, as I understand the scenario, but explain a point, please: she now has different DNA, but besides changing test results, does do anything (i.e. is it expressed?)?Solauren wrote: It's about the possible legal/ethical/moral implications.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
The scenario would be more interesting without the first test, but still nothing terribly strange: all it would mean is that the mother would essentially be operating in a pre-DNA test legal environment. She'd simply collect documents, photographs and statements from doctors which should be enough to conclusively prove that the kid is still who she was before the rewrite.Solauren wrote: It's about the possible legal/ethical/moral implications.
Again, we come back to all the other ID marks: if your kid is disfigured, loses his/her eyes or fingerprints, fatherhood doesn't automatically cease. Why should it be different with DNA changes? It's just another physical property of your body.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Assume yes. It's to be clear that the genetics of the original father now have absolutely no barring or effect on the child.Melchior wrote:There are none, as I understand the scenario, but explain a point, please: she now has different DNA, but besides changing test results, does do anything (i.e. is it expressed?)?Solauren wrote: It's about the possible legal/ethical/moral implications.
For the purposes of the child's biology, she might as well be adopted.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
He still raised the kid for a while. He's the one who took responsibility for her when she was born, when she was added to their family. He's still her father. Period.
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wilfulton on Bible genetics: "If two screaming lunatics copulate in front of another screaming lunatic, the result will be yet another screaming lunatic. "
SirNitram: "The nation of France is a theory, not a fact. It should therefore be approached with an open mind, and critically debated and considered."
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Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
To elaborate: typically, the law describes when a parent's obligations to his/her child cease. I'm not sure if the anglo-saxon systen is much different from the continental system, but last I checked, "massive DNA rewrite" isn't grounds for ceasing those obligations. He'd get laughed out of court if he tried to argue he shouldn't support the child based on this BS excuse.Wyrm wrote:He still raised the kid for a while. He's the one who took responsibility for her when she was born, when she was added to their family. He's still her father. Period.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
You don't understand the implications of what you are saying. A lot of genes are regulated differently during the life of person, especially in the early, ontogenic stages (and often are never again express after having had their effect); now, without descending into technical detail that you wouldn't probably understand, I assure you that having had a certain genome up until a point in life and then changing it radically is not compatible with life. You cannot handwave this away, because if the changes are "active" and not magically suppressed, the girl dies, if they are not active, as mentioned above, they are completely irrelevant. You could postulate that the change is magically retroactive, and that the girl is now as she would have been if she had had the new genome from the start, but frankly this makes no sense.Solauren wrote:Assume yes. It's to be clear that the genetics of the original father now have absolutely no barring or effect on the child.Melchior wrote:There are none, as I understand the scenario, but explain a point, please: she now has different DNA, but besides changing test results, does do anything (i.e. is it expressed?)?Solauren wrote: It's about the possible legal/ethical/moral implications.
For the purposes of the child's biology, she might as well be adopted.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
This was a Moral/Legal Exercise only. Quite frankly, in this instant, I could care less about the underlaying science beyond the testing showing 'oops, doesn't look like they are related anymore.'Melchior wrote: * Snip *
Can't you wrap your head around that? It's a mental/thought exercise. Some suspension of disbelief is required. Like say, debating Star Wars or Science Fiction in general.
So please, unless you have something to contribute to this beyond going 'waa, waa, it's impossible', do shut the hell up.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
It's not merely impossible, it's a incoherent scenario. As such, it's impossible to answers you fully; if the only effects are on the test, then, as it has already been said, the test is clearly worthless.Solauren wrote:This was a Moral/Legal Exercise only. Quite frankly, in this instant, I could care less about the underlaying science beyond the testing showing 'oops, doesn't look like they are related anymore.'Melchior wrote: * Snip *
Can't you wrap your head around that? It's a mental/thought exercise. Some suspension of disbelief is required. Like say, debating Star Wars or Science Fiction in general.
So please, unless you have something to contribute to this beyond going 'waa, waa, it's impossible', do shut the hell up.
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Re: RAR: Bone Marrow transplant causes partial DNA rewrite
Why would anything change? Having funny things happen to your kid's DNA doesn't change you being responsible for bring a child into the world and raising it up until this point. They already know who the father is from previous tests, you can't unbecome a parent due to changes in your child's blood chemistry.