Stuart wrote:A comment from TVTropes - how many basic physics errors can one spot in this?
Let's see ...
I'm honestly disappointed that the transdimensional portals didn't get slapped with some kind of limitation. (snip) The way the portals are presented at the moment, I think its entirely possible to construct a perpetuum mobile with almost trivial ease - just open two portals from hell to earth (that way, you don't even need to keep them running yourself), one directly above the other and reverse the order when you open them on earth - anything that is thrown into them will keep falling forever, so add a generous amount of water, shove a hydroelectric turbine into the resulting loop and forget that humans ever had any energy production problems.
I can spot five problems off the top of my head (not necessarily all basic physics errors).
The more egregious problem is that he's assuming the author(s), and the board in general, are so ignorant of physics that we wouldn't build in limitations to prevent violations of the fundamental laws of nature. He's attributing to the portals properties that he doesn't know they have; he's just assuming they behave like his intuitive notions say they ought.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
Now if only we humans find out about the angel's interest in heroin and such. Flooding Heaven with all the junk possible would cause all sorts of breakdown in Yahweh's little organization.
It wouldn't be too bad for Michael Lan (every time I read his name written as such, I start thinking of a basement dwelling Naruto fanboy) to start talking to the humans. He might not be able to gain actual power, but being in the same boat as that Naga queen (what's her name?) isn't such a bad deal.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
The biggest problem with the TVTropes person is the assumption that this configuration is possible at all, and that there would be no negative impact on the portal from putting materials through it which require a net GPE increase rather than a net GPE decrease.
These are completely arbitrary assumptions on his part. Instead, any scientist worth his salt would assume that if you were able to somehow create this configuration and it actually works, then it must get the requisite energy from somewhere. Perhaps it would actually close the portal, by draining it of whatever energy was required to open it in the first place.
In reality, if we encounter a phenomenon and start to analyze it, we do not immediately assume that configurations which permit violations of the first law of thermodynamics are possible just because no one has explicitly shown us that they are not.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Human collaborators? For all we know, he's got undead humans acting as proxies and agents on Earth. Like Lazarus, you know? Resurrected prophets? Except that they're coke fiend. Like, Micheal Lan could've totally resurrected Tony Montana and sent him to Earth to get high on his own supply.
He loved Heaven
With a vengeance
SHROOMFACE
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Darth Wong wrote:That's an interesting point. I imagine they would probably replace it with a new slogan rather than simply deleting it, since people would expect that. Perhaps something like "United We Stand". That's a phrase of similar length, and infinitely better sentiment. Or they could go with the classic: "E Pluribus Unum". Or they could sell it for advertising: "This coin has been brought to you by Pfizer".
"In Firepower We Trust"?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just open the portal on Earth and start tossing nuclear-tipped Tomahawks through? Besides, Heaven is nice real estate, and it's a shame to damage nice real estate more than you have to to win the war.
Yes, but it wouldn't be as awesome as punching God with the Sun.
Still, instead of having a full-blown Archangel go to Earth to collaborate with military juntas, Micheal could instead send an undead proxy to make correspondences. It would be more effective if, say, said proxy was someone previously known to the people Micheal is contacting. Like Micheal contacting the North Korean government by having Kim Il-Sung visit Kim Jong-Il.
Or contacting Vladimir Putin by using Joseph Stalin as a messenger.
Or using Hitler on Angela Merkel.
Come on, it would be great! Imagine Micheal trying to subvert the Russians, or gain their favor, or make peace agreements or negotiations and he sends fucking Stalin.
Putin: "Stalin! It's you!"
Stalin: "Yes, it is I! Stalin!"
Putin: *reaches for Makarov*
Stalin: "Nyet! Listen to me comrade! I have a Five Year Plan!"
Putin: "Da, for the motherland!"
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Stuart wrote:It might sound dramatic, Michael thought, but it was largely true. If the humans could get to Heaven, the war would be over quickly and unbelievably violently. Not necessarily all the occupants of Heaven would get killed, Michael-Lan had a back-up plan for that eventuality as well and this club featured there as well. But the power structure that had existed in Heaven for untold millennia would be shattered for ever. That was no bad thing, Michael-Lan admitted to himself and he was not adverse to shattering it himself. But it had to be done slowly and carefully and when he moved it had to be with all the cards held firmly in his hand.
Mike's become one sneaky SoB over the eons, I see. Bravo. No matter how this war plays out, looks like Yaweh's going to take one in the shorts, very painfully so.
If the humans don't shoot him in the face, Mike's going to stab him in the back.
Revelation 16 wrote:Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
Probably a nasty plague of some sort. I would assume that since the Message we ALL can be considered as bearing the Mark of the Beast. I was surprised that a Colopatiron was sent to deliver it, since they're angels of liberation, but I guess Michael didn't want it to succeed by a wide margin. The bowls get WAY worse as they go on, up to bowl #7 which is a global earthquake.
BTW, there's a typo in the third paragraph, unless it really is an 'owl of wrath'.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Regarding the bowl of wrath:
Revelation 16 wrote:Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
Probably a nasty plague of some sort. I would assume that since the Message we ALL can be considered as bearing the Mark of the Beast. I was surprised that a Colopatiron was sent to deliver it, since they're angels of liberation, but I guess Michael didn't want it to succeed by a wide margin. The bowls get WAY worse as they go on, up to bowl #7 which is a global earthquake.
Actually, I think it's more that Michael didn't want the twenty schmucks who lead the attack to come back alive. He was using the Humans to do his dirty work for him, since Colopatiron's loyalties lay more with Yahweh, and that would've been rather inconvenient for Michael's schemes.
From where I'm standing I think Michael-Lan is ultimately going to aim to repeat Abigor's defection, and attempt to become the new ruler in Heaven. Whether or not it will work should prove interesting.
After reading this
And yet, his appointment for this mission was a puzzlement to Colopatiron for he had always believed that he was not amongst those Michael-Lan considered his most trusted.
was "You aren't. That's why you were sent."
Kill one man, you're a murderer. Kill a million, a king. Kill them all, a god. - Anonymous
I really think you should do a better job in Armageddon at hinting towards Michael's true nature. The scene in Armageddon with Jesus being a stoner and Micheal dealing drugs was a bit of a Big Lipped Alligator Moment until you brought it up again here. Just try and set it up better in the paper books so it doesn't come off like a forced attempt at humor.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Setzer wrote:I really think you should do a better job in Armageddon at hinting towards Michael's true nature. The scene in Armageddon with Jesus being a stoner and Micheal dealing drugs was a bit of a Big Lipped Alligator Moment until you brought it up again here. Just try and set it up better in the paper books so it doesn't come off like a forced attempt at humor.
I'll bet that's been cleaned up in the revision. The original scenes with Yahweh, Michael, and Uriel were not written with this direction in mind, so it stands to reason that they be changed to reflect the actual nature of Heavenly society.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
She was hooked on heroin and his contacts with the Myamnar military junta were still good.
I'm really curious how the Archangel Michael made contact with the junta. Use his psychic abilities to make the generals think he's just a human businessman, offer to trade opium for the precious stones that Heaven has in bulk? For modern weapons he can get by mind controlling arms manufacturer execs? For deals with oil companies whose mind controlled execs would otherwise obey the various embargos against the junta?
That would only work until they start wearing tinfoil hats.
As it stands, I think it would be something a lot simpler. Michael just uses a similar structure to any other criminal enterprise, using multiple agents fairly removed from himself to maintain contact. Have an agent on Earth that knows who he is contact another agent who doesn't know anything about Michael, who contacts a member of the military junta who puts them in line with the drugs they need.
And considering the prevalence of the internet and wireless communications, its entirely possible Michael could just remain in contact entirely by remote, without ever meeting anyone face-to-face.
Darth Wong wrote: Remember that both Heaven and Hell are dimensionally very limited places compared to the visible universe.
Which brings up something I've been wondering about: What happens when Hell and Heaven get full? Assuming humanity is able to avoid going extinct in the normal universe, we'll eventually run up against spacial limitations in Heaven and Hell.
Then things get very uncomfortable for the inhabitants.
I'm suspecting a mechanism somewhat like on the Ringworld is behind this, though. We've been told repeatedly that there is no magic, only science - well, one of the tenets of science is that complicated things need complicated reasons to happen (or else they're actually simple things in disguise), and humans showing up in Hell the way they do is definitely a complicated thing.
Getting *partially* healed, healing fast, etc. I'm almost certain the entire setup was engineered by some third party. Eventually we'll be able to do the same. Or we'll have gotten crushed by the people capable of creating bubble universes specifically to setup a tinpot "god" to keep us dwn.
Morilore wrote:Michael-Lan is a Magnificent Bastard. I hope he becomes the archvillian despite "liking humans," because I can't think of anyone else who can fill that role.
I wouldn't necessarily want him running the show after Yahweh. Especially if we can find a more... pliant, proxy, if you get my drift? Conveniently, since Michael Lan's minions seem to be more loyal to "the stuff" than to Michael Lan himself...
Or, if that would be too obvious, find someone else who we can work with (preferably with a minimal of dirty dealing) and can keep order.
Baughn wrote:Then things get very uncomfortable for the inhabitants.
I'm suspecting a mechanism somewhat like on the Ringworld is behind this, though. We've been told repeatedly that there is no magic, only science - well, one of the tenets of science is that complicated things need complicated reasons to happen (or else they're actually simple things in disguise), and humans showing up in Hell the way they do is definitely a complicated thing.
Getting *partially* healed, healing fast, etc. I'm almost certain the entire setup was engineered by some third party. Eventually we'll be able to do the same. Or we'll have gotten crushed by the people capable of creating bubble universes specifically to setup a tinpot "god" to keep us dwn.
It won't be that bad of a problem anyway. Each bubble universe, being a klein bottle, should have a mirrored surface on the top in addition to the landmass of hell or heaven in each case. So we've got four Pangeas to colonize so far. We can build them up like Coruscant and use Earth as a gateway to the solar system to harvest energy for various activities, since nobody needs to eat in the bubble universes. That means we can probably reliably pack 1.2 x 10^18 to 4 x 10^18 people there before we start running into problems, depending on how big the oceans are and how technologically capable we are with turning them into the foundations of super high-rises. That means the population of dead humans can increase by 8 orders of magnitude before we run out of room, or 100,000,000 times.
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It just occurred to me how similar the afterlife in Salvation War is to the afterlife in the manga Bleach. Nobody needs to eat, except the natives who are obscenely powerful and feared/hated. The dead possess abilities and durability far surpassing that of the living. The dead don't age (or age very slowly) in both continuities. And the human populations of both are so large that any plan to uplift them en masse to a first world lifestyle is doomed to fail.
And I wonder if there will be a market in foodstuffs in hell for the simple luxury of it. Even If I didn't have to eat, I'd still want the occasional cheeseburger.
Commander of the MFS Darwinian Selection Method (sexual)
I'm surprised that Michael was the direct supplier of the angel at the end. I would have thought he had removed himself from that kind of work. I fully expect one of his more powerful "clients" to try to overtake him at a suitably awkward point in Michael's plans.
Vendetta wrote:Richard Gatling was a pioneer in US national healthcare. On discovering that most soldiers during the American Civil War were dying of disease rather than gunshots, he turned his mind to, rather than providing better sanitary conditions and medical care for troops, creating a machine to make sure they got shot faster.
Hawkwings wrote:I'm surprised that Michael was the direct supplier of the angel at the end. I would have thought he had removed himself from that kind of work. I fully expect one of his more powerful "clients" to try to overtake him at a suitably awkward point in Michael's plans.
I think that what he supplied to the minor angel came out of his own personal stash. Which he has because either he likes getting baked every once in a while, or because he keeps it around as something to trade in exchange for favors owed to him.
Well, he said it was from his personal stash. What I meant was, the angel came directly to him for the stuff, and not to a dealer that Michael supplies.
Vendetta wrote:Richard Gatling was a pioneer in US national healthcare. On discovering that most soldiers during the American Civil War were dying of disease rather than gunshots, he turned his mind to, rather than providing better sanitary conditions and medical care for troops, creating a machine to make sure they got shot faster.
Is there any way to make plants grow in Heaven (since there are animals in Hell, it stands to reason that they can also grow stuff there too. Those demon peons had to be growing something. And I assume that what you can do in Hell can be reasonably done in Heaven)? I imagine that Michael Lan (now his name sounds like the moniker of a internet cafe mascot) would be smart enough to know how to make heroin and such.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
"
- PeZook
